Sharia law used in the United Arab Emirates to jail gang-raped Australian woman

[Manc Skipper]

In America, the gang rapes don't start till AFTER you get to jail.

 

[notquiteright]

1) I don't see where you wrote that... And while it is true, many countries that are allied or friendly with the Western nations are using Sharia, most notably Saudi Arabia, that doesn't mean that we have to appreciate what that is on a personal level and adopt it in our own. Or even allow it to exist in any form in our world. Worldwide diplomacy is somewhat different than internal society, don't you think? You need to make dealings, on the world stage, with all sorts of people representing all sorts of countries.

2) I don't claim that we need to worship Judeo-Christian anything. I don't even get that term, Judeo-Christian. It is a void term in my perception. And people (I assume in the USA) can argue w/e they want. The reality of the situation is that while indeed, Christianity was the dominant religion and inspired the dominant culture of the USA and the west for a very long time, the foundation of the modern, secular countries are divorced from any relationship with any of the Christian churches except that of common respect and separation. Something that sharia law goes against. It is through the nature of Christianity that secularism was permitted to be born. No other (abrahamic) religion has proven capable of giving birth to this philosophy on governing, only Christianity. Judaism was unable to provide it. Islam could have never provided it.

3) Roe v Wade made it legal for birth controls legal, not mandatory. You can refuse to use them based on any principle you wish. Guns are also legal, but you aren't obligated to own one, you can refuse to own one based on any notion you wish to have. Free speech is also legal, but you can choose to be silent because of any reason. Same for that... just because something is legal, doesn't mean its mandatory.

4) Christianity is the New Testament. The Old testament is there to provide context... but Christians are Christian because of the New Testament and because of Jesus Christ. Christ--- Christian. Get it? No Christ? Not a Christian. The ones who adhere to the old testament are the jews. Ask any priest that knows his deal, what makes him a Christian, he will tell you: I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and his word as the truth. You don't have Jesus's words in the Old Testament, now do you?

And yes, you are correct about the abuses that organized religion can have. Which is why we here in the west have decided to stop obeying Church laws, regardless of which Church it is, and just adopt our own laws. The laws of mankind for mankind. It's called secularism and we like it. And while the people who have authority, now and in the distant past (as is the case for Christianity) always found ways to abuse it for their own benefit... well... even in todays' world where we have public education and a high literacy rate, people still get duped. 1000 years ago, when knowing how to read and write was a privilege most didn't have access to, it was more easy to dupe people into doing war based on anything.

Who said adopt it as our own? What is being done in Israel is allowing sharia courts for SOME cases with judicial oversight. The same is being done with the very similar 'old testament' Jewish law here.

I see, we demand a life for a life in murder trials quoting an eye for an eye, something Jesus would NEVER agree with. And you seem to not notice the many 'conservatives' in this country who clamor for GAWD in government and the courts (especially when they demand EVERYONE abide by their religious views regarding abortion and birth control.)

You twist the Roe V Wade abortion law. I never said anyone MUST get an abortion but rather many 'conservatives' and devout Christians DEMAND everyone obey their version of religious doctrine on those subjects. They want to unite religion and our law. Their concept is NO ONE can get an abortion and not have to provide a LEGAL medical procedure, birth control. So much for this separation thing.

You are mistaken on who 'adheres' to the Old Testament, I recall many a sermon on the Old Testament growing up as a GAWD fearing Methodist. far from being a 'context' the Old Testament is given infallibility protections JUST like the New Testament. Many use the eye for eye, not lay with men and I do recall a passage from the New Testament where Jesus says the He came to fulfill not destroy, matthew 5:17. Those who cite the OT when it comes to the lying with other men bit reject that part being there just for context.

So by your interpretation only Jews should be against Homosexuality because I can't find anyplace where Jesus claimed it was wrong.

 

[Strucker]

You need to slow your roll and read what I typed... 'I' said the UAE and the Arabian Penn DIDN'T have the Arab Spring that caused such consternation among the 'conservatives' of this country. But you are incorrect about propping up dictators, Qatar is ruled by a minority Sunni bunch that during that Spring in question relied on Saudi troops to keep the ****te majority in check. What I said is funny how weak the tea on our allies' use of Sharia law and how bitter the brew when it is the Arab Spring nations. The 'fear' of Sharia law is odd considering our 'allies' in the region have been using it for generations and we cuddle with them. Funny too Israel has sharia courts in their country :shock:

It is interesting to see Westerners be so down on religion as part of governance when so many 'conservatives' are so insistent we need the Jeudo-Christian line of worship in ours. How many 'conservatives' in here have argues GAWD is the basis for our governance and Christianity founded this nation, (Madison and the Federalist Papers are quotes as a matter of course in such discussions)

I am not talking about 'ancient' history about Catholic governance, but right here, right now. For years Roe v Wade has been the law of the land. For years birth control has been legal in our Republic, yet to this day the Catholic Church, and it's devout members, are in open defiance. The list is long of the 'conservative' politicians attempting one 'GAWD' bill after another, attempting to restrict laws on religious grounds, and not for just their religions but for everyone in the state/nation..

To this day a person's religious back round can cause pause among the 'conservatives' in particular. From Kennedy in the 60's to Willard in the new millennium some worried if a person was of the 'right' type of religion. Catholics were viewed with a bit of concern as they 'obey' a foreign potentate.

The use of the New Testament is not new in this type of discussion, however it is half the book now isn't it? The Old Testament is full of Sharia law like commands. The difference between the Old Testament and the Quran against the New Testament and Christianity is the former two are 'conqueror' religion to justify occupation and the latter a 'slave' religion of a subject people. Not until the Romans usurped the religion in an attempt to prop up their crumbling empire did Christianity emerge from the shadows.

And do note how the religious tenant went from 'eye for an eye' in the old Testament, to 'turn the other cheek' in the New, to 'Kill them all GAWD will know His own' once Christianity became State Religion. So I'd say just trying to use what Jesus said as the only part our people use... waaaay too many are waaaay too quick to quote 'eye for an eye' who attend a Christian Church ahhh religiously...

Fantastic post.

 

[Strucker]

1)
3) Roe v Wade made it legal for birth controls legal, not mandatory. You can refuse to use them based on any principle you wish. Guns are also legal, but you aren't obligated to own one, you can refuse to own one based on any notion you wish to have. Free speech is also legal, but you can choose to be silent because of any reason. Same for that... just because something is legal, doesn't mean its mandatory.

I didn't get that from notquiteright's post...at all.

 

[Rainman05]

Who said adopt it as our own? What is being done in Israel is allowing sharia courts for SOME cases with judicial oversight. The same is being done with the very similar 'old testament' Jewish law here.

I see, we demand a life for a life in murder trials quoting an eye for an eye, something Jesus would NEVER agree with. And you seem to not notice the many 'conservatives' in this country who clamor for GAWD in government and the courts (especially when they demand EVERYONE abide by their religious views regarding abortion and birth control.)

You twist the Roe V Wade abortion law. I never said anyone MUST get an abortion but rather many 'conservatives' and devout Christians DEMAND everyone obey their version of religious doctrine on those subjects. They want to unite religion and our law. Their concept is NO ONE can get an abortion and not have to provide a LEGAL medical procedure, birth control. So much for this separation thing.

You are mistaken on who 'adheres' to the Old Testament, I recall many a sermon on the Old Testament growing up as a GAWD fearing Methodist. far from being a 'context' the Old Testament is given infallibility protections JUST like the New Testament. Many use the eye for eye, not lay with men and I do recall a passage from the New Testament where Jesus says the He came to fulfill not destroy, matthew 5:17. Those who cite the OT when it comes to the lying with other men bit reject that part being there just for context.

So by your interpretation only Jews should be against Homosexuality because I can't find anyplace where Jesus claimed it was wrong.

Since you have an antipathy towards organization and numbers, I shall not bother restoring order to chaos.

You want to talk about the USA purely? I mean buddy... this is about an Australian girl... and Australia abolished the death penalty. So eye for an eye doesn't work. Unless you talk about certain states in the USA. Now USA is a special case. It is the only civilized nation who still employs the death penalty. Basically in all of Europe, its long been abolished.

I don't think all the Catholics want to do that. In fact, I'm pretty sure the majority of religious institutions don't push for that. it is the evangelicals that are the crazies from what I've seen, at an institutional level.

I don't twist anything. Conservative Christians in politics do politics. That's what they do. I never heard of a christian conservative everyday joe having the authority to enforce religious homogeneity on the population.

Again, methodist... sorry, you're like a sort of a cult. I cannot argue with you on what your methodist religion preaches. You want to talk, there are only 3 major Christian denominations that are worth discussing, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Everything else, sorry, it's just not in my area to discuss. You're all "evangelicals" in my POV because I can't be expected to learn the particularities of each cult. Born-again Christians if you will.

I'm not saying anyone should be against homosexuality. We don't live in a theocratic country. We live in a secular one if you live in a western country. And not just.

And why are you discussion USA here? This isn't about the USA. This is about Aussieland and UAE. Not the US.

 

[Rainman05]

I didn't get that from notquiteright's post...at all.

Well, that's what I understood from it. Why do Catholics not respect Roe vs Wade. Because people who are catholic can do whatever they want. They can boycott birth control. They can choose not to use it. Roe v wade just makes it legal, not mandatory.

 

[Fallenangel]

I like that all the protectors of Islam as a "peaceful" religion always point to Christianity in the middle ages/the Old Testament equating them to Islam.... one problem, they always fail to mention that these religions went through centuries of cultural, social moderation and reformation movements, Islam didn't.

The battle for the true face of Islam may be occurring these days, unfortunately I am very skeptical that the "moderate" side will win.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[notquiteright]

Since you have an antipathy towards organization and numbers, I shall not bother restoring order to chaos. You want to talk about the USA purely? I mean buddy... this is about an Australian girl... and Australia abolished the death penalty. So eye for an eye doesn't work. Unless you talk about certain states in the USA. Now USA is a special case. It is the only civilized nation who still employs the death penalty. Basically in all of Europe, its long been abolished. I don't think all the Catholics want to do that. In fact, I'm pretty sure the majority of religious institutions don't push for that. it is the evangelicals that are the crazies from what I've seen, at an institutional level. I don't twist anything. Conservative Christians in politics do politics. That's what they do. I never heard of a christian conservative everyday joe having the authority to enforce religious homogeneity on the population. Again, methodist... sorry, you're like a sort of a cult. I cannot argue with you on what your methodist religion preaches. You want to talk, there are only 3 major Christian denominations that are worth discussing, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Everything else, sorry, it's just not in my area to discuss. You're all "evangelicals" in my POV because I can't be expected to learn the particularities of each cult. Born-again Christians if you will. I'm not saying anyone should be against homosexuality. We don't live in a theocratic country. We live in a secular one if you live in a western country. And not just. And why are you discussion USA here? This isn't about the USA. This is about Aussieland and UAE. Not the US.

You don't list a place for your location so I thought you was an American. My bad, still you don't want Sharia law where ever you are and try and use this case to show what would happen if this system came to a court near you. (that was your first post, not poor Aussie girl)

You tap dance lightly away from your earlier contention the OT isn't 'Christian' and how much even Protestants use the OT. I don't know how you define cult of Protestant but I grew up thinking Methodists are Protestants. Now if you REALLY want to go there every service i have attended to include non denominational ones in the Service and out of it use the OT. I have NO idea what sect of Christianity refuses to see the OT as Divinely Inspired and as much a part of the Faith as the NT. That includes the Mother Church, (catholic) with by the way Methodists acknowledge.

You are quite the turbo twister- the very concept of Christian politicians 'doing politics' means they want to put religion into our governance. There are quite a few Christian conservative everyday Joes who would LOVE a theocratic government, but your claim is odd, regular everyday average Abduls don't get to enforce religious edicts on the entire population. The Sharia court would.

If you think many Catholics don't agree with the Mother Church, the Pope and the devout catholics you are correct, but that same claim can be made of the average Muslim on the EXTREME elements of their religion and Sharia law. But the point is there is a strong Catholic element in this nation that wants the Pope's edicts to be law in this country, life begins at conception, abortions are a sin, and any form of birth control beyond rhythm is prohibited. The Catholic Church is in open defiance of secular law in the USofA. (peel the onion as you wish but the USofA is indicative of the various 'Christian' movements)

Now IF you mean this to be just between Aussies and UAE then why in your FIRST post did you opine on Sharia law coming to Western nations?

Fact is Sharia law will not be the same version as what the protected and radical version are in the ME. There are several countries that allow Sharia law to be used with court supervision.

 

[MadLib]

I like that all the protectors of Islam as a "peaceful" religion always point to Christianity in the middle ages/the Old Testament equating them to Islam.... one problem, they always fail to mention that these religions went through centuries of cultural, social moderation and reformation movements, Islam didn't.

The battle for the true face of Islam may be occurring these days, unfortunately I am very skeptical that the "moderate" side will win.

Cheers,
Fallen.

The thing is that Islam was at its Golden Age while Christianity was in the dumps. The rise of Europe led to the downfall of the glory of Islamic society. The Mongol massacres didn't help either.

 

[Fallenangel]

The thing is that Islam was at its Golden Age while Christianity was in the dumps. The rise of Europe led to the downfall of the glory of Islamic society. The Mongol massacres didn't help either.

Unfortunately having a "Golden Age" has nothing to do with reformation and moderation.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[Manc Skipper]

I like that all the protectors of Islam as a "peaceful" religion always point to Christianity in the middle ages/the Old Testament equating them to Islam.... one problem, they always fail to mention that these religions went through centuries of cultural, social moderation and reformation movements, Islam didn't.

The battle for the true face of Islam may be occurring these days, unfortunately I am very skeptical that the "moderate" side will win.

Cheers,
Fallen.

I make no apology for any supernatural belief. I pointed earlier to the widely accepted idea that much American raping frequently happens inside prison. Christians currently form a greater proportion of the prison population than they do outside. Coincidence? It's not historical, it's now.
It would appear that US atheists are less criminal than Christians, or that they are so much better at it that they don't get caught so easily.

 

[Fallenangel]

I make no apology for any supernatural belief. I pointed earlier to the widely accepted idea that much American raping frequently happens inside prison. Christians currently form a greater proportion of the prison population than they do outside. Coincidence? It's not historical, it's now.
It would appear that US atheists are less criminal than Christians, or that they are so much better at it that they don't get caught so easily.

A. How exactly it has to do with Islam not being "moderated" or/and "reformed"?
B. How exactly you try to pose your comparison as valid when you compare more violent prisoners (you actually have to show a correlation between them being Christian and more violent - which you failed to do btw) to whole countries and cultures that endorse and try to actively export Salafism and Wahhabism?

Fallen.

 

[L0neW0lf]

So if you to the middle east... you'd have no problems raping women right? Because you know that under sharia law, there is no way you'd be charged and that she would be spending time in prison of she reported it.

That is not Sharia. In fact depending where you do it there is a decent chance you'll get yourself killed if not by the courts that consider rape a capital offence, then by a relative.

I am having trouble with her story, the Tox screen didn't show the drugs that knocked her off? there is no security cam footage of her being hmm abducted? no one found it odd that she was taken out of the hotel presumably unconscious when she lives in the hotel? plus Neither Sharia nor the law in (UAE) requires four witnesses for rape conviction. That is for adultery and premarital sex, however those witnesses are not required if there is forensic evidence (a pregnancy for example).

 

[L0neW0lf]

B. How exactly you try to pose your comparison as valid when you compare more violent prisoners (you actually have to show a correlation between them being Christian and more violent - which you failed to do btw) to whole countries and cultures that endorse and try to actively export Salafism and Wahhabism?
Fallen.

This presumes that those cultures are more violent which is not completely true just wiki crime rates and compare the rate of US homicide to that of most middle eastern countries.

 

[Rainman05]

That is not Sharia. In fact depending where you do it there is a decent chance you'll get yourself killed if not by the courts that consider rape a capital offence, then by a relative.

I am having trouble with her story, the Tox screen didn't show the drugs that knocked her off? there is no security cam footage of her being hmm abducted? no one found it odd that she was taken out of the hotel presumably unconscious when she lives in the hotel? plus Neither Sharia nor the law in (UAE) requires four witnesses for rape conviction. That is for adultery and premarital sex, however those witnesses are not required if there is forensic evidence (a pregnancy for example).

Are you really going to defend the rapists?

It's interesting. You must be a sharia sympathiser, no way around it. Either that, or a real f---ing @#$%^&*. Take your pick or use your imagination.

Go read the report. Go take a deep look at what happened according to the testimony and the chain of events and the evidence, of which there is plenty (her bruises and broken ribs for starters).

You just managed, in one post, to take all your credibility and throw it down the drain. Congrats.

 

[Fallenangel]

This presumes that those cultures are more violent which is not completely true just wiki crime rates and compare the rate of US homicide to that of most middle eastern countries.

Hhhh, nice one (haven't heard this before at all ...lol)

A. You and I know that in these cultures things like rape, murder etc... are often resolved between clans and families (you even mentioned it yourself in your previous post).
Whereas, in the West people tend to seek protection and justice from the local law & order authorities.

B. You (whoever does these statistics) are comparing two absolutely different judicial systems (and cultures) based on absolutely different cultural, social, moral norms.

C. So Salafism and Wahhabism for instance in your opinion are moderate branches of Islam?

Fallen.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Are you really going to defend the rapists?

I don't see his words as defending the rapist. I see it as telling us what he either thinks or knows the law there to be. Now I disagree with him, but still. How much do we really factually know of the story?

 

[quantumechanic]

I don't see his words as defending the rapist. I see it as telling us what he either thinks or knows the law there to be. Now I disagree with him, but still. How much do we really factually know of the story?

Woman, 29, sues UAE hotel after rape then JAILED for sex outside of marriage | Mail Online

We know that an Australian woman was imprisoned for 8 months after complaining to UAE police that she was gangraped. How much more do you need to know?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Woman, 29, sues UAE hotel after rape then JAILED for sex outside of marriage | Mail Online

We know that an Australian woman was imprisoned for 8 months after complaining to UAE police that she was gangraped. How much more do you need to know?

Again, another nation, another set of laws. Why didn't she know the law?

Wouldn't it be funny if her claims were proved false with video evidence, and she was jailed for that?

Now I'm not saying that is the case, but really... Do you always take news accounts as being factual? I hope not.

How do we know she's not making it up? It most certainly wouldn't be the first time a woman lied about rape.

You read "The Daily Mail..."

OK...

 

[quantumechanic]

Again, another nation, another set of laws. Why didn't she know the law?

"Another set of laws"? You're actually defending sending women to jail when they complain of gangrape?

Wouldn't it be funny if her claims were proved false with video evidence, and she was jailed for that?

Now I'm not saying that is the case, but really... Do you always take news accounts as being factual? I hope not.

How do we know she's not making it up? It most certainly wouldn't be the first time a woman lied about rape.

You read "The Daily Mail..."

OK...

Read my previous post. The facts mentioned were: "an Australian woman was imprisoned for 8 months after complaining to UAE police that she was gangraped.". Note that I didn't say she was gangraped, I said she complained to the police that she was gangraped. I don't think it matters if she lied about it or not, I think it's horrendous she was sent to prison for it.

I actually considered stressing the "complained about rape" as opposed to "was raped" in the previous post on the off chance you'd use this strawman but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Lord of Planar]

"Another set of laws"? You're actually defending sending women to jail when they complain of gangrape?

Of course not. That's a real stretch. Have you not read my previous posts?

 

[Strucker]

"Another set of laws"? You're actually defending sending women to jail when they complain of gangrape?

I didn't read that in his remarks at all.

 

[Joechilli]

I had to change the wording of the title because it was too long.
~story taken from reddit.

Sharia law used in the United Arab Emirates to jail Australian woman after she was gang-raped



Read the rest on the link. It presents more on the story and other things as well related to how sharia is (including people running for their lives after renouncing Islam). And to think that some people advocate and support sharia courts in many countries in Europe, particularly the UK. This is what you are encouraging.

So I guess we have new set of advice memes to give:

If you don't like it don't Fund it, the West needs the oil so it pours money into Sharia Law countries.

Try making an argument against Oil and For Alternatives,
And to think that some people advocate and support Oil in many countries in the West, particularly the USA. This is what you are encouraging.

 

[Rainman05]

If you don't like it don't Fund it, the West needs the oil so it pours money into Sharia Law countries.

Try making an argument against Oil and For Alternatives,
And to think that some people advocate and support Oil in many countries in the West, particularly the USA. This is what you are encouraging.

What does that have to do with this australian girl... Jesus.

 

[Joechilli]

What does that have to do with this australian girl... Jesus.

You keep the nasty side of Sharia going through money, than bitch about it's evils

Jesus doesn't have anything to do with it, a bit like the current Foreign Policy