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Are you able to read this?
Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation - PubMed
It is believed that during the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. According to this concept, our gender identity (the...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Oh I know. I find it amazing when some people, who aren't even gay or trans, are calling actual gay or trans people homophobic or transphobic. I consider myself lucky that my local communities rarely see such types. It simply shows where he cannot support his position when he has to engage in ad homs and change what I say in order to try to discredit me. Especially when nothing I wrote was against any transgender ideology.Ecoform literally called you a bigot and said you wanna shit on transgender people. Do you really believe he doesn't think you're a TERF?
Whether you support transgender people is irrelevant; you strayed from the ideological message and must be excommunicated. Don't worry, even transgender people who don't stay on message are labelled TERFs.
Newborns do not have an understanding of social constructs or even an understanding of themselves, which is why every source you can find says gender identity is formed at around the age 3-4 years.
Yes, gender identity is about a social construct a person identifies with, but that can't be done in the womb, because a fetus has no concept of socially constructed gender roles.
But is it really? A social construct that it? I think we can agree that any gender expectations, gender roles, and ideas of gender expression would fall under social constructs, and is evidenced by the large variations of such over history and culture. But the identity itself, is another matter.
As I noted before, we all have a sexual identity, keeping in mind that we are using sex and gender as two separate things here. Sex, being the biological aspect of the person, the physical body, is something that others can see externally. For the purposes of the my argument I am going to use (fe)male for sex and (wo)man for gender. A baby has no sexual identity when born, but develops it over its first few years. Even if it is intersexed, it forms the identity based on the external. It might develop a female identity even though it has an XY pair and AIS. Or even develop an intersexed identity if it has ambiguous genitalia, assuming no corrective action before the identity develops.
Gender identity is internal, and as such we don't see the basis of it. And, yes, I am claiming that there is some kind of basis for it, present at birth. A baby doesn't have a gender identity when born but develops it in its first few years, based upon whatever this internal thing is, much like it develops its sexual identity based upon its external genitalia. Transgenderism occurs when those two identities do not align in the typical statistically common fashion. Keep in mind that the lack of alignment does not automatically cause GD, although it does seem to in most cases. The basis for this postulation, if you will, is the observation that there are many transgenders who will claim a gender opposite their sex, yet do not, nor want to, conform to the social constructions of gender presentation, roles and/or expectations. I cannot see, if gender itself was a social construction, why these people would not conform those other constructions. Thus it is more logically a separate, non constructed thing within the person, by which the gender identity is based upon.
Keep in mind that the word symbol gender might not be the most accurate one to use here. But we are looking as something previously unknown and unrealized (gender as separate from sex), so it's the best we currently have. Regardless of whether we continue call it gender or develop a newer symbol for it, it still is. Rose by any other name and all.
it's a sad malady that I am thankful to not have been stricken with.sex and gender are two different things. where is the trans movement headed?
Maybe this isn't relevant to what you've said, but I've wondered whether transgenderism is just on the extreme ends of a feminine/masculine spectrum. After all, what is the actual difference between a male who identifies as a man and who is feminine likes to wear women's clothing and a male who identifies as a transwoman other in how they self-identify?
I need you to expand on this, as I am not following what you are trying to say.Also, what gender is a transwoman who regards themselves as a man (of which there are plenty)?
Drag Queens are a good example of male who identify as men and still present feminine. I am guessing that you are using feminine/masculine as separate from (fe)male, yes? But in closer answer to your question, we have to step back a bit. When we talk about what is masculine or feminine or man or woman, or more accurately the external cues to those, they are the constructs. Wearing dresses is a woman's thing or feminine.....except when it was masculine or a men's thing at other points in history. Even in the relevantly recent time of my grandfather, boys were put into dresses until a certain age. In fact, with the possible exception of skorts, there is not a type of clothing out there that hasn't been worn by both men and women, or males and female if you prefer, at some point in history. They might go by different names. A kilt is nothing more than a clan specific patterned wrap around skirt. High heels, when first invented, were a men's fashion. So the actual self identity isn't based upon whatever the current social construct is. I will grant that such is how we typically make our determination of others. But even that is moving by the wayside, especially when it comes to women wearing "men's" clothing, regardless of cut.
I need you to expand on this, as I am not following what you are trying to say.
Drag Queens are a good example of male who identify as men and still present feminine. I am guessing that you are using feminine/masculine as separate from (fe)male, yes? But in closer answer to your question, we have to step back a bit. When we talk about what is masculine or feminine or man or woman, or more accurately the external cues to those, they are the constructs. Wearing dresses is a woman's thing or feminine.....except when it was masculine or a men's thing at other points in history. Even in the relevantly recent time of my grandfather, boys were put into dresses until a certain age. In fact, with the possible exception of skorts, there is not a type of clothing out there that hasn't been worn by both men and women, or males and female if you prefer, at some point in history. They might go by different names. A kilt is nothing more than a clan specific patterned wrap around skirt. High heels, when first invented, were a men's fashion. So the actual self identity isn't based upon whatever the current social construct is. I will grant that such is how we typically make our determination of others. But even that is moving by the wayside, especially when it comes to women wearing "men's" clothing, regardless of cut.
You know the thing about anecdotes, the more spastic they are the more unbelievable they are especially in opening posts.This was in stable mental health house, not a hospital. I've just literally never come across people like this. For one thing I really don't bother to ask peoples sex or gender, I use "hey man" to the point that its now multi sex / gender, another thing is I've met a few guys in hospital that have been shit, I've met a few girls that have been shit, but the majority are fine. those are extremely large group when compared to the trans community. Wasn't just them it was the workers that didn't care if anyone did anything during the day then just getting ****ed up at night. What I'm saying is my experience has been that the community starts trying to get people fired because they weren't trans, that's ****ed a minority spreading discrimination. A MINORITY SPREADING DISCRIMINATION, you know what else fits that description. Japanese supremacy, Chineese han supremacy, White supremacy - trying to shut down conversations gives me really bad new dark age vibes, when the church wiped out science because they didn't agree.
Sociology needs to stay in its ****ing place.
I did scan through it, and I am going to have to go back and look it over more in depth (along with the 20 million things I want to review more in depth). And I am aware of trans people who have views similar to this. And some of it is simply use of words. I can comprehend the idea that a trans woman is not a woman because she doesn't grow up with the same experiences a female does. However, I have to wonder 1) how accurate that will be for those children who are identifying now and grow up presenting as their gender, and 2) are they holding to that same standard for intersex people who look female externally?Some transwomen disagree with the premise that they are women; they claim they are men and that being a transwoman doesn't make you a woman. Debbie Hayton is one such transwoman, there are others. If transwomen are women, then what is a transwoman who says they're not a woman?
Regardless of your views, this article about transwomen who reject the idea they are actually women is very interesting and I would recommend reading it.
The Trans Women Who Say That Trans Women Aren’t Women
Last month, a 42-year-old English accountant who goes by the pseudonym Helen Highwater wrote a blog post disputing the idea that trans women are...slate.com
But why do you think a transwoman is actually a woman as opposed to a very feminine man or a more extreme or permanent form of crossdressing? Are men only allowed to express a certain amount of femininity before they're regarded as women?
Referencing the OP?Another johnny come lately lol….
The fact that they do not have an understanding of it doesn't mean that it isn't already predetermined and will become known as they mature. A baby has no idea about sexual orientation or even sex but our sexual orientation isn't a choice and it is also predetermined in utero but that doesn't become known for 10-12 years. When a baby is born we are usually little more than our reptilian brain. A baby doesn't even gain the understanding that it is alive and conscious until a year or more of age.Newborns do not have an understanding of social constructs or even an understanding of themselves, which is why every source you can find says gender identity is formed at around the age 3-4 years.
Yes, gender identity is about a social construct a person identifies with, but that can't be done in the womb, because a fetus has no concept of socially constructed gender roles.
Yes. Filled with incredibly grandiose claims from a very anecdotal source, i tend to not take them seriously.Referencing the OP?
I agree, I come from a family where my dad ****ed off and I was raised by females who are extremely motivated.Newborns do not have an understanding of social constructs or even an understanding of themselves, which is why every source you can find says gender identity is formed at around the age 3-4 years.
Yes, gender identity is about a social construct a person identifies with, but that can't be done in the womb, because a fetus has no concept of socially constructed gender roles.
XD I was raised with a girl we use to sit in the bathtub staring at each others junk this was before 3, so I'd say there is some understanding of this is a girl and this is a boy this is how we differ. sex definitively has more credibility than gender when you said "it add on information" how??? all that's doing is getting rid of sex and accepting gender normsThe fact that they do not have an understanding of it doesn't mean that it isn't already predetermined and will become known as they mature. A baby has no idea about sexual orientation or even sex but our sexual orientation isn't a choice and it is also predetermined in utero but that doesn't become known for 10-12 years. When a baby is born we are usually little more than our reptilian brain. A baby doesn't even gain the understanding that it is alive and conscious until a year or more of age.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
XD I love how all you have are insults, not a great argumentYou know the thing about anecdotes, the more spastic they are the more unbelievable they are especially in opening posts.
wtf man talking about that sex is purely sexual organs not chromosomes and not gender.Are you attempting to claim that you posted that in post #65, which was the post I was addressing? You know that we can just scroll up and see what you actually posted right?
At any rate, the way the conclusions were described in that abstract is at odds with the actual conclusions of the study. The actual conclusions (as opposed to the poorly-worded abstract) were that sexual differentiation of the brain occurs during the second half of pregnancy, independent of sexual differentiation of the genitals, which occurs much earlier. Though direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells normally occurs in males, this is not always the case. Sometimes a biological male might not have this hormonal surge, and sometimes a biological female might have it. This could lead to brain chemistry in a biological male more similar to the brain chemistry normally found in biological females, and vice versa.
Gender, as defined by the World Health Organization, refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. Brain chemistry is not socially constructed, so the writer of the abstract clearly misspoke by equating brain chemistry with gender.
Insofar as brain chemistry might have some later effect on gender identity, it can obviously only do so in an environment in which the subject is exposed to the constructs of society.
The pic and the "I am offended sir! Why you are impugning upon my right to a minor genocidal act or two!"Yes. Filled with incredibly grandiose claims from a very anecdotal source, i tend to not take them seriously.
The WHO. really? after bowing to china and refusing to allow facts and instead accepted the story they gave? or would this be the UN human rights council which has the worst offenders on it's board?Are you attempting to claim that you posted that in post #65, which was the post I was addressing? You know that we can just scroll up and see what you actually posted right?
At any rate, the way the conclusions were described in that abstract is at odds with the actual conclusions of the study. The actual conclusions (as opposed to the poorly-worded abstract) were that sexual differentiation of the brain occurs during the second half of pregnancy, independent of sexual differentiation of the genitals, which occurs much earlier. Though direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells normally occurs in males, this is not always the case. Sometimes a biological male might not have this hormonal surge, and sometimes a biological female might have it. This could lead to brain chemistry in a biological male more similar to the brain chemistry normally found in biological females, and vice versa.
Gender, as defined by the World Health Organization, refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. Brain chemistry is not socially constructed, so the writer of the abstract clearly misspoke by equating brain chemistry with gender.
Insofar as brain chemistry might have some later effect on gender identity, it can obviously only do so in an environment in which the subject is exposed to the constructs of society.
just because it predates something does not mean its better.Speaking of ignorance, the word gender predates biology departments, and was used interchangeably with biological sex 300 years before the term sociology was even coined. Gender and sex were synonyms from the 15th century until the 20th century when it first started being used to represent the socialized obverse of sex.
Can you provide evidence pls?One's personal sense of identity is established in the womb.
Society creates genders. People relate to a gender. Gender identity is about what social construct a person identifies with. A person identifies with that construct from birth.
XD I was raised with a girl we use to sit in the bathtub staring at each others junk this was before 3, so I'd say there is some understanding of this is a girl and this is a boy this is how we differ. sex definitively has more credibility than gender when you said "it add on information" how??? all that's doing is getting rid of sex and accepting gender norms
Really when I'm trying to support actual facts of sex and how it can't be replaced by gender because they are different topics.I'm talking about the typical uneducated bs used to support bigotry. They try to pretend gender was a term used commonly since long ago by finding an obscure reference.
I've seen the transgender hate before. I believe you have as well. You're supporting it with argument from ignorance.
Look at you arguing from ignorance for bigotry. Nice work.
"But I don't know, I think maybe..."
Ignorant bigotry.
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