sex and gender are two different things. where is the trans movement headed?

[Aristaeus]

Identity is the psychology part. What is identified with is created by society.

Gender has nothing to do with biology and biology never employs the term. That confusion was created by a government form euphemism.

Dude, Lisa thinks a person's gender identity is formed and determined in the womb.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Sex and gender were always two different things. A biology department has never used the term gender. The college of sociology invented the term and has always employed it. A lot of people are ignorant.

Speaking of ignorance, the word gender predates biology departments, and was used interchangeably with biological sex 300 years before the term sociology was even coined. Gender and sex were synonyms from the 15th century until the 20th century when it first started being used to represent the socialized obverse of sex.

 

[WishfulThinker]

Speaking of ignorance, the word gender predates biology departments, and was used interchangeably with biological sex 300 years before the term sociology was even coined. Gender and sex were synonyms from the 15th century until the 20th century when it first started being used to represent the socialized obverse of sex.

oh so because it predates biology therefore it has more pull?. That's bs, social constructs vs science fact.
BECAUSE GENDER DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST UNLESS YOU DEFINE IT, it does not actually exist
Sex is very well defined, you may not like that but it has evidence on it's side. true fact's exist with or without definition
Again gender and how sex is being used doe's not support the facts
Including that changing sex while the mind hasn't developed properly. Injecting people with testosterone, while still in development have all shown negative side effects including worsened dysphoria

Let science fact rule the domain of evidence based conclusions
Not how you feel

Dude, Lisa thinks a person's gender identity is formed and determined in the womb.

Gender Identity seems very self inflicted.
Why produce more problems without questions?
It seems to be very based on feeling rather than evidence. That's not saying dysphoria isn't real, it is a subject on psychology but that deals in what you say not what can be backed up by evidence. when its found to be backed up by evidence then its goes into psychiatry

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

"Sex" refers to biological features that we associate primarily with reproduction.

"Gender" is the social constructs we apply to those biological distinctions.

That is certainly how it used to be. It doesn't seem like that is the case any longer though.

As far as I can tell, the new version of gender is just an arbitrary identification label, the only distinguishing features of which are its nominative, possessive, and objective third-person pronouns.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

oh so because it predates biology therefore it has more pull?. That's bs, social constructs vs science fact.
BECAUSE GENDER DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST UNLESS YOU DEFINE IT, it does not actually exist
Sex is very well defined, you may not like that but it has evidence on it's side. true fact's exist with or without definition
Again gender and how sex is being used doe's not support the facts
Including that changing sex while the mind hasn't developed properly. Injecting people with testosterone, while still in development have all shown negative side effects including worsened dysphoria

Let science fact rule the domain of evidence based conclusions
Not how you feel

Gender Identity seems very self inflicted.
Why produce more problems without questions?
It seems to be very based on feeling rather than evidence. That's not saying dysphoria isn't real, it is a subject on psychology but that deals in what you say not what can be backed up by evidence. when its found to be backed up by evidence then its goes into psychiatry

I must admit, you make a compelling case for prescriptivism.

 

[NatMorton]

But sex and gender aren’t two different things, or at least they aren’t if that’s the speaker’s intent:

View attachment 67362337

 

[maquiscat]

You do that with a definition which relates to sexual organs.
So what sexual organs do they have

Definitions are meant to be the same its how we communicate.

It's partly an observation, I do provide facts. Regardless of context promoting facism, disregarding science fact. Doing this because it's what you feel, the definitions the trans community use are so different even someone else came in to correct someone.
Definitions are meant to be the same its how we communicate.

But definitions do not always remain the same across time. They change and alter and add. Older definitions remain valid but are rarely used. Take "gay" for example. By your logic, it should never be used as a label or slur for a homosexual. And yet It is and has been respectively.

 

[maquiscat]

Yes they are. Gender is a social construct. Sex is not, it still exists whether we define it or not

Please provide your support that gender is a social construct. I will agree that gender presentation, gender roles, gender expectations are all social constructs. But where is your support that gender itself is a construct?

Promoting science fact, ensuring conversations are not shut down.
How about a general dislike of facism.
Not allowing conversation because you dislike it is exactly fascism

It can be equally claimed that in trying to shut down the claim that gender exists and is not a social construct is as much fascism as you are claiming for your point. Besides, you are having the conversation. Right here in this thread.

V perfect example of discrimination - this was where I got the quote "but it's good discrimination right?"
Does that sound like good discrimination?, she was fired for not being trans

'It's not about cancel culture': Hedwig and the Angry Inch postponed after trans-led petition

The show’s creators have said the role should be ‘open to anyone’, after the casting of Hugh Sheridan in a Sydney production drew ire from sectors of the queer community

www.theguardian.com

Is this that article that you referenced in the other thread? Again, as I said there, please do not mix threads, at least without making a specific reference to the other thread first. I'll review the article later.

 

[maquiscat]

Gender is a social construct. Identity is psychology. Without society creating gender, there'd be nothing with which to identify.

My Phd(c) specialization (like a minor for an undergrad) is gender. All of my classes to attain that specialization were in the Gender Department under the College of Sociology.

Gender identity is psychology. Gender is sociology. Gender is a social construct.

I agree with you that what the word symbol "gender" was initially, and for a long time, applied to was indeed a social construct. Later that word symbol came to also be applied to a biological fact, sex. Now there is an attempt to apply it to something that is also not a social construct. It is right that the thing, whatever word symbol it gets, is made to be known and separate. Is "gender" the right label for it? That remains to be seen.

 

[maquiscat]

Identity is the psychology part. What is identified with is created by society.

Gender has nothing to do with biology and biology never employs the term. That confusion was created by a government form euphemism.

Do you have support for that? Last I knew, it was a basic lingual shift, brought by a, at the time, puritanical like dislike for the association of the word "sex" with the act as well as the biological status.

 

[maquiscat]

yes I'm attacking people for animal cruelty, diregarding science fact and a community pushing discrimination.
You seem the person justifying actions and using hostage diplomacy just "should we just kill ourselves" did I ****ing say that, no you implied it

Anything dealing with animal cruelty with regards to transgenders is a non-sequitur fallacy, or a conflating fallacy. It is not limited to transgenders, therefore it has nothing to do with transgenders. You only add confusion to the topic at hand when you bring it up. Yes it is a bad things, and needs to be discussed and handled. Just separately.

 

[maquiscat]

oh so because it predates biology therefore it has more pull?. That's bs, social constructs vs science fact.
BECAUSE GENDER DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST UNLESS YOU DEFINE IT, it does not actually exist
Sex is very well defined, you may not like that but it has evidence on it's side. true fact's exist with or without definition
Again gender and how sex is being used doe's not support the facts
Including that changing sex while the mind hasn't developed properly. Injecting people with testosterone, while still in development have all shown negative side effects including worsened dysphoria

Let science fact rule the domain of evidence based conclusions
Not how you feel

Gender Identity seems very self inflicted.
Why produce more problems without questions?
It seems to be very based on feeling rather than evidence. That's not saying dysphoria isn't real, it is a subject on psychology but that deals in what you say not what can be backed up by evidence. when its found to be backed up by evidence then its goes into psychiatry

Dude that whole post is a strawman. He made no claim on whether the things the words "sex" or "gender" were factual or anything. His post was simply on word usage across time, a factually true enough statement. It might be argued whether or not people in the past were using words correctly, but using them as such they factually were

 

[Visbek]

XD that's chromosomes, which would look more that they are particular attributes to sex rather than gender. even if your chromosomes are not original, you will still have particular

Since you missed it, development of both reproductive organs and the brain happens in utero. That's why not all intersex cases are a result of chromosomes, and one possible source of the biological elements of transgenderism.

Transphobia is a collection of ideas and phenomena that encompass a range of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender people or transness in general.

Yup. That's exactly why I keep pointing out that your positions are transphobic.

You may think this applies to me but I'm not attacking them because they're trans I'm attacking because I will not accept being dragged through another dark age with this behaviour

Dude? Read your own words. You are literally accusing transgender people of "dragging" us into a "dark age."

And again! Cisgender people do the exact same things you're complaining about.

I'm not trying to beat it out of anyone, I want science fact to be left alone sex and gender are not the same thing they can't be transferable. YOU WOULD ONLY REPLACE SEX IF WE CHANGED HOW WE BREED, HOW HAS THAT CHANGED

...and here you are again, trying to erase their entire existence, and ignoring the science.

Congratulations on just digging yourself in deeper.

 

[ecofarm]

Do you have support for that? Last I knew, it was a basic lingual shift, brought by a, at the time, puritanical like dislike for the association of the word "sex" with the act as well as the biological status.

Gender was never a term used in biology. It's not employed in biology today. Never has been, never will be. Gender was always a term used in sociology. It was created by sociology. It's a sociology thing. Has nothing to do with biology.

But the government form. And now every uneducated moron thinks they know what gender means.

 

[ecofarm]

Dude, Lisa thinks a person's gender identity is formed and determined in the womb.

Transgender women are born with a female brain and male body. I dunno where you stand on that but, to me, tie goes to the brain.

 

[ecofarm]

Speaking of ignorance, the word gender predates biology departments, and was used interchangeably with biological sex 300 years before the term sociology was even coined. Gender and sex were synonyms from the 15th century until the 20th century when it first started being used to represent the socialized obverse of sex.

You found an old newspaper article that used it as a euphemism. So typical. Do you have a militia compound education?

 

[Aristaeus]

Transgender women are born with a female brain and male body. I dunno where you stand on that but, to me, tie goes to the brain.

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender. Do you think a fetus can have a personal sense of its own gender?

 

[ecofarm]

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender. Do you think a fetus can have a personal sense of its own gender?

One's personal sense of identity is established in the womb.

Society creates genders. People relate to a gender. Gender identity is about what social construct a person identifies with. A person identifies with that construct from birth.

 

[maquiscat]

Gender was never a term used in biology. It's not employed in biology today. Never has been, never will be. Gender was always a term used in sociology. It was created by sociology. It's a sociology thing. Has nothing to do with biology.

But the government form. And now every uneducated moron thinks they know what gender means.

Let me rephrase the question. Do you have any evidence that the use of the word as a synonym to biological sex (as opposed to the act of sex) was a result of the government and society followed, or was it perhaps a change in society's use and the government followed suit?

 

[ecofarm]

Let me rephrase the question. Do you have any evidence that the use of the word as a synonym to biological sex (as opposed to the act of sex) was a result of the government and society followed, or was it perhaps a change in society's use and the government followed suit?

It's the government form. Idiots think they know what gender means because of it. They've never seen the word gender anywhere else.

Gender is not a term employed in biology. Never has been. Never will be.

 

[maquiscat]

You found an old newspaper article that used it as a euphemism. So typical. Do you have a militia compound education?

You are not talking about his link are you?

 

[ecofarm]

You are not talking about his link are you?

I'm talking about the typical uneducated bs used to support bigotry. They try to pretend gender was a term used commonly since long ago by finding an obscure reference.

I've seen the transgender hate before. I believe you have as well. You're supporting it with argument from ignorance.

Look at you arguing from ignorance for bigotry. Nice work.

"But I don't know, I think maybe..."

Ignorant bigotry.

 

[maquiscat]

It's the government form. Idiots think they know what gender means because of it. They've never seen the word gender anywhere else.

Gender is not a term employed in biology. Never has been.

I am not talking about biology. Drop the strawman. I am asking about the lingual shift in the use of the word gender from sociological and grammar use to being used as a synonym for sex. The fact remains that the use of the word did shift. You seem to be claiming that the government caused the shift. I am asking you to support that. The other possibility is that society made the shift first and government followed suit, not government started it and society followed suit.

 

[maquiscat]

I'm talking about the typical uneducated bs used to support bigotry. They try to pretend gender was a term used commonly since long ago by finding an obscure reference.

I've seen the transgender hate before. I believe you have as well. You're supporting it with argument from ignorance.

Look at you arguing from ignorance for bigotry. Nice work.

"But I don't know, I think maybe..."

Ignorant bigotry.

I hardly think that the Oxford Dictionary is an "obscure reference"

 

[ecofarm]

I hardly think that the Oxford Dictionary is an "obscure reference"

You're supporting bigotry with arguments from ignorance. You wanna shit on transgender people. There's nothing more to your crap.