Seperation of Church and State

[Jufarius87]

im saying this in response to heyjoeo's first comeent that started this topic

first off alqueda is on the ropes we took down 75% of their people

saddam wouldnt comply with us he kicked out u.n inspectors and our allies said he wmd's perfectly reasonable reasons to go to war

bi partisan pork barreling and the war is the cause for roughly 66% of the deficit when we went to war the big spending in other areas should have freezed the tax cut which is to blame for 33% of the deficit was a help for the economy

first of all dont take this as racist because i am actually part native american and i am assuming thats who you are talking about when you speak of tribal sovreignty

we all know what tribal sovreignty is.... its one huge joke reservations are not taxed and do not have to comply with most american laws yet the get to use our public school system and our welfare its a huge leech on our nation and there is nothing sovreign about it
another example of this is affirmitave action enough minorties complain and they get their way even if it is reverse racism

now that i responded to your complaints the topic was seperation of church and state correct? first what many people dont realize is that the seperation of church in state has nothin to do with the constituion it actually came out of a letter written on new years day by thomas jefferson later on it became the battle cry of the liberal judge

the constituion simply says no law shall be passed promoting or hindering a religion

lets analyze that no LAW shall promote or hinder a religion
that basically mean congress cant ban a religion or make it the govt official religion

making NO LAW does not expand into monuments of the ten commandments holidays or even a monent of silence to pray in school (a moment of silence is pretty unbiased right even an athiest could use it to collect his thoughts...)

i beleive the founding father were not looking for restriction they were looking for expression of religion and i dont mean just christianity if a jew became president it would be his right to swear on a torah if it pleased him or the goes to any other religion it is simply that christianity is most prominent and that is why most peeps complain about it

 

[redboy220]

You say the economy is in the toilet, well the economy is BETTER yes BETTER now that it was the ENTIRE time Clinton was in office!

 

[Pacridge]

You say the economy is in the toilet, well the economy is BETTER yes BETTER now that it was the ENTIRE time Clinton was in office!

First, this thread is regarding "Separation of Church and State"

Second, who said the economy is in the toilet?

Lastly, If it is better now than it ever was during the Clinton years. You must have some facts and figures to back that statement up. What are they and where can they be verified?

 

[redboy220]

He said the economy is s***. Now if you would like to see the statistics on the two economies here is the site. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092602/posts You'll find that most of the numbers are better now than they were in Clinton's eight years you may think of as a presidency.

 

[shuamort]

He said the economy is s***. Now if you would like to see the statistics on the two economies here is the site. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092602/posts You'll find that most of the numbers are better now than they were in Clinton's eight years you may think of as a presidency.

Yeah, well this paints a different story:
Real GNP Growth
Clinton's 2nd Term: 4.20%
2001: 0.5%
2002: 2.2%
2003: 3.1%
2004: 4.2% (First quarter) 37 Months Under Bush: 2.10%
Last 15 Months: 3.32%

and secondly, the average unemployment rate:

The Unemployment Rate
Clinton's 2nd Term: 4.40%
2001: 4.76%
2002: 5.78%
2003: 6.00%
2004: 5.63% (First quarter) 37 Months Under Bush: 5.51%
Last 15 Months: 5.92%

We see that both real GNP growth and the unemployment rate have been worse under the Bush administration than they were under Clinton in his second term as President. As we can see from our real GNP growth statistics, the growth rate of real GNP has been rising steadily since the recession at the beginning of decade, whereas the unemployment rate is continuing to get worse.

 

[Pacridge]

He said the economy is s***. Now if you would like to see the statistics on the two economies here is the site. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092602/posts You'll find that most of the numbers are better now than they were in Clinton's eight years you may think of as a presidency.

Well, I have to appalled your effort here. Most conservatives simply acknowledge and except the facts and numbers that clearly show the economy is worse under GWB then it was under WJC. They simply blame external pressures such as 9-11 or the bust in the tech stock’s as reasons or excuses for that poorer economy. You’ve taken a different track completely and deny the economy is weaker. Interesting, not true but interesting.

Again there is a whole topic area dedicated to the economy. This thread is for the issue of separation of church and state.

 

[cutter45]

Re: fightenmad

who completly ignore seperation of church and state.

Show me where in the constitution that it says "seperation of church and state" and I will buy you whatever book you want on Amazon.

Show me where, in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution or, for that matter, the Oath of the President, there is any mention of "God", "Jesus" or any religion in particular...for that matter, show me where it says anything about this being a "Christian" nation, or that this country is founded on christianity or any other religion? Jefferson's use of the term "Seperation of church and state" did pertain to the state not meddling with religion, but James Monroe's verbiage in the treaty of Tripoli ("The United States is not a Christian nation...") clearly shows that the intent was to make sure that wall works both ways...

I would suggest that anyone wanting the United States to be governed by a "good old-fashioned christian government" remember their own history, that there never has been a "good old-fashioned government" (unless you mean the Holy Roman Empire; let's not go there, shall we?), and perhaps look at the middle east, where "good old-fashioned" fundamentalist religion-based governments are at work making sure that the view of the state, and only the view of the state is allowed to be tought or espoused, under penalty of imprisonment or death...and please don't try to tell us that a "Christian state" would be any different...

I like my rights, I like the fact that if I go to interview for a job that my religious preference is not an issue, that I can say what I will, believe what I will, and I don't have to hide to do it...I say, that in the spirit with which it was proposed, in the spirit with which it has been one of the underlying currents of our governance throughout our history, let each believe in his own way, let us be governed in as objective a manner as possible, and leave religion out of our government...

 

[shuamort]

Re: fightenmad

Show me where, in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution or, for that matter, the Oath of the President, there is any mention of "God", "Jesus" or any religion in particular...

Declaration of Independence:When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --

 

[shuamort]

Wait, do I get a book from Amazon for that one?

 

[Repubteen]

How can you say this is not a religious country. How long have you lived here?
Examples:
House of Representatives open everyday with a prayer
In court you swear on a BIBLE
In the Pledge of allegiance
"one nation under god"

 

[shuamort]

How can you say this is not a religious country. How long have you lived here?
Examples:
House of Representatives open everyday with a prayer
In court you swear on a BIBLE
In the Pledge of allegiance
"one nation under god"

There is no official religion. Unlike some countries.

 

[Repubteen]

Yes I know we don't have a main religion that doesn't mean were not religious
and you cant deny that we were founded on Judo-Christian values.

 

[shuamort]

Yes I know we don't have a main religion that doesn't mean were not religious
and you cant deny that we were founded on Judo-Christian values.

You're right, and you can't deny that we weren't solely founded on Judeo-Christian values and that those values aren't mores that sprung up from mythologies of the past. (See Sir James George Frasier's "The Golden Bough" or pretty much any Joseph Campbell book)

 

[cutter45]

I never said this wasn't a religious country, and I've lived here all my life...as for the pledge of allegiance, the reference to God was added in 1954...a year later the phrase "In God We Trust" was added to money, namely coins...the point I'm trying to make is that both sides in this debate are trying to force their views on the other. You are free to believe whatever you wish (at least for the time being), but you don't have the right to force your beliefs (or lack of them) on me...to say that this is a "Christian Nation" is a misnomer; would you leave out the Islamics, the Jews, the Buddhists, and deny them their rights? Perhaps schools and businesses, all government offices etc. should start every day with an hour of prayer, so that every faith is represented...or maybe we should leave faith to the individual, and allow them their own choice? I freely admit that the framers of the Constitution were by and large Christians (there were a great many Deists and early Unitarians among them), but the very wording of the document indicates that they were trying to leave religion out of it, to allow the freedom of faith to be a choice of the individual, as it should be...the only enemy here is intolerance, and I hear plenty of it from both sides...

 

[cutter45]

Wait, do I get a book from Amazon for that one?

Nope, I didn't get in on that bet

I mispoke myself, including the Declaration of Independence on that one...

 

[cutter45]

Yes I know we don't have a main religion that doesn't mean were not religious
and you cant deny that we were founded on Judo-Christian values.

"Values" is the key word here...try reading a Buddhist text, the Torah, the Q'Ran, and you will find the same values, but we're not a Buddhist, Jewish or Islamic state...

 

[Jaymo]

God did not create man!
Man created God!

 

[Jaymo]

Personally, I would tear down the wall between church and state and require all religious entities to pay taxes on everything they own just as we have to do!

 

[Repubteen]

You are free to believe whatever you wish (at least for the time being), but you don't have the right to force your beliefs (or lack of them) on me...to say that this is a "Christian Nation" is a misnomer; would you leave out the Islamics, the Jews, the Buddhists, and deny them their rights?

First off , how is having the Ten Commandments forcing the religion of Christianity on you? If you don't like it don't look.The majority of this country is Christian 77%(2001) And that is part of who we are as Americans the Muslims, and Buddhists did not help form this country so why should there "bible" or "book" be next to the Ten Commandments. People like you think all White Male Christians are Evil and anyone who isn't a White male Christian is OK.
So yes I can in a way say this is a Christian nation all of our laws are based on religion. It's not based on Islam where if you blow yourself up and kill people you will be forgiven by Allah.And we don't force a religion on people like the British did back during Columbus's time. So don't give me this Bull**** about how America enforces Christianity on you!
I know for a fact that you have never had someone come up to you and say become a Christian or you will die or be banished etc. I mean come on enforcing a religion?

 

[shuamort]

And that is part of who we are as Americans the Muslims, and Buddhists did not help form this country so why should there "bible" or "book" be next to the Ten Commandments.

Is the country done forming? If so, we won't need to create any new amendments as we've done all that. No need for new laws, we're good.

The United States is still being formed, heck, it wasn't even until 1959 that we even had 50 states.

Yes, some of the Founding Fathers were Christians but that isn't the whole and sum of what the country is, was, or will be.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Personally, I would tear down the wall between church and state and require all religious entities to pay taxes on everything they own just as we have to do!

Radical idea, Jaymo, but a damn good one!

 

[IndependentTexan]

Our country was formed by people trying to escape for religious freedom. Freedom that makes people of all different religions come together. If you take seperation between church and state out, you will make all the lives lost in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 be in vein. Seperation of Church and State is the basis of our country, as is all of the 1st Amendment. Our country doesn't have a problem with the goverment going into the church and telling them what they believe. The church is trying to go into the government. The words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance are breaking the 1st Amendment. Now some of you may think that I must be anti-christian here but im not. I am a firm Christian, but I don't think that christianity should be in politics. Take that statue of the 10 commandments issue thats going to court, christians are trying to impose their beliefs on people, and I find that wrong in a lot of ways.

My point is, you keep your beliefs to yourself, and ill keep mine to myself.

 

[Schweddy]

My point is, you keep your beliefs to yourself, and ill keep mine to myself.

I can respect that. But, must we extinguish our countries history because of this?

History is one thing, but trying to change it is another.

 

[IndependentTexan]

I can respect that. But, must we extinguish our countries history because of this?

Of course we should extinguish our country's history because of this. Religious freedom is why the pilgrims came to escape from the british. It is the primary reason why we shouldn't get rid of Seperation of Church and State. It is what our country is all about....We can't ignore our history.

 

[Schweddy]

Of course we should extinguish our country's history because of this. Religious freedom is why the pilgrims came to escape from the british.

Ahh... I get it. So, we should erase ANY history dealing with church? Our money, songs, pledge, court systems..etc.. due to sensitive folks?

That Declaration of Independence? Bah... its junk.

Any speech by a President using "God Bless America" needs to be adjusted. They shouln't have said that and it be on the record. You know...

Our court system needs to be adjusted cause a prayer is required before any hearings in the Supreme Court.

I see your point.

Ain't gunna happen.