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Seperation of Church and State

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Pacridge said:
Who's trying to keep people from "acting religiously?" The issue isn't whether people can act religiously, it's whether the governemnt can engage in the behavior.
Is it really?

Why can I not pray aloud in school?

Why is it not allowed for kids to pass out flyers for thier church in school?

Why is it that clothing in reference to God - i.e. words on shirts or crosses - are forbidden in schools?

These are all 'acting' religiously and the government (public school system) is not allowing these. By not allowing these, the government is indeed keeping people from "acting religiously".
 
vauge said:
Is it really?

Why can I not pray aloud in school?

Why is it not allowed for kids to pass out flyers for thier church in school?

Why is it that clothing in reference to God - i.e. words on shirts or crosses - are forbidden in schools?

These are all 'acting' religiously and the government (public school system) is not allowing these. By not allowing these, the government is indeed keeping people from "acting religiously".
It's not keeping you from acting religously, it's keeping you from acting religously in a school setting. Not quite the same thing. If students started having satan worship sessions with in the school I'm assuming you'd be opposed to that.

Plus, I'm not sure about the schools where you live but here where I live students do regularly wear religous oriented clothing. I was on the board when our local high school formented it's dress code and while we agreed to disallow things like short skirts and mid-riff baring shirts we specifally did not include any wording that would keep students from wearing religous type t-shirts and such. Gang "colors" were dis-allowed. My daughter isn't in high school any longer but as of last year I can attest that students did wear t-shirts with religous quotes and saying on them.

Students were also allowed to have a student organized prayer breakfast and meeting if they cloose to do so. Which they did- every Wed. morning prior to class. It was our understanding that as long as the meeting were "student organized" such meetings were allowed by law.

So maybe the schools operate differently where you live. But didn't I see a players prayer just prior to last years Texas High School Football campionship game?
 
It's not keeping you from acting religously, it's keeping you from acting religously in a school setting. Not quite the same thing. If students started having satan worship sessions with in the school I'm assuming you'd be opposed to that.

Acutally, I wouldn't. Everyone has a voice. As soon as my child is FORCED into a setting of that enviorment, then I would have an issue.

Students were also allowed to have a student organized prayer breakfast and meeting if they cloose to do so. Which they did- every Wed. morning prior to class. It was our understanding that as long as the meeting were "student organized" such meetings were allowed by law.

Your right, we live in different worlds. That is not allowed.

But didn't I see a players prayer just prior to last years Texas High School Football campionship game?

I can't remember if it was a game or a graduation ceremony that a boy was put in jail for parying and mentioning Jesus in his prayer. Either way, it is considered illegal here. Interesting to note, our teachers here are REQUIRED to give Muslims time (in the middle of class) to face and pray to mecca.
 
Okay!! We have our first qualifier:

Pacridge said:
It's not keeping you from acting religously, it's keeping you from acting religously in a school setting.

In effect then, "government should not infringe on religion, unless the religion is on government property."

Is that what you think it means?

Satan worshiping? Extreme, but okay. Let's say we had to allow Satan worshiping too. Wouldn't at some point, laws and decorum rules take over to delineate what types of Satan worshiping activities could take place? For instance, if they came to school smeared with blood, there would be hygiene standards to disallow that. If they tried to sacrifice a goat on school property, the law would step in. Look, Catholic school children can't take Eucharist in school and drink from a goblet of wine to symbolize Christ's blood.

Pac, on one hand you seem fine with small acts of religion in school, but on the other you advocate the ACLU's position of no religion whatsoever. How much religion is okay, and at point do you become either outraged at the religiosity or the prevention of such?
 
vauge said:


I can't remember if it was a game or a graduation ceremony that a boy was put in jail for parying and mentioning Jesus in his prayer. Either way, it is considered illegal here. Interesting to note, our teachers here are REQUIRED to give Muslims time (in the middle of class) to face and pray to mecca.
How can they allow one and not the other? This is completely bizzare. There's something truely wrong with that situation. Ever think about trying to get on your local school board? If not you should certainly attend their meetings. Something needs to be done about that situation. From a legal stand point it makes no sense that they could insist on the one and restrict the other. When I was on the board here locally we researched the school prayer breakfast issue and we were told, by school counsel, that as long as the students were responsible for everything they could organize what ever clubs and groups they wanted. In fact if we allowed one group to organize and not others we could be at risk legally. This is why in some schools around the country you have gay and lesbian groups allowed to hold meetings. Of course with the G&L crowd you have a well funded group backing their every move.
 
WKL815 said:
Okay!! We have our first qualifier:



In effect then, "government should not infringe on religion, unless the religion is on government property."

Is that what you think it means?

Satan worshiping? Extreme, but okay. Let's say we had to allow Satan worshiping too. Wouldn't at some point, laws and decorum rules take over to delineate what types of Satan worshiping activities could take place? For instance, if they came to school smeared with blood, there would be hygiene standards to disallow that. If they tried to sacrifice a goat on school property, the law would step in. Look, Catholic school children can't take Eucharist in school and drink from a goblet of wine to symbolize Christ's blood.

Pac, on one hand you seem fine with small acts of religion in school, but on the other you advocate the ACLU's position of no religion whatsoever. How much religion is okay, and at point do you become either outraged at the religiosity or the prevention of such?
I have no problem with students putting forth their rights and I think the students do have rights. But I don't think the school officals should offically engage in the process.
 
Look!!! Texas has a minority liberal population and the citizens there have yielded their religious practice to the minority because the minority sues and threatens to sue.

Pac lives in Oregon where the liberal population is not so minor, and they have not attacked religion in schools yet.

Here in Washington, A principal stated worry about students performing a Christmas Carol and decided to not overlook the procedural oversights that occurred in getting the appropriate permission to use the auditorium for the function. End result - no Christmas Carol classic.

Washington is becoming a redder state. I'd say about half and half if the turn to Rossi is any indication.

If I had to make a deduction, I'd say the liberal anti-religious types get their panties in a wad when they sense they might start loosing their majority status and lash out regardless of tradition or what's fair.
 
As I see it, the basic problem with having the Ten Commandments displayed in public buildings is that it is an embarrassment to the public officials, lawyers, and politicians.

They resent the constant admonishment not to steal, lie, or commit adultery. It gives them a guilty conscience.
 
I think that's exactly it. Religion gives people a moral standard to live up to, and they don't like it. We live in an age of moral relativism, where if it's alright for you, that's fine, I don't have to agree with it, but you should still be able to do it.

But, the second that people assert that there may, in fact, be absolute standards for right and wrong, they get riled up.
 
Or it could be the fact that the First Amendment to the constitution calls for seperation of church and state, and they find it DEMORALIZING to the other religions for them to either have representation, or no representation of any religion at all.

Joke all you want about public officals, lawyers, and politicians and about them being "corrupt." However, making broad generalizations is a bad idea.
 
When you invoke "seperation of church and state" to make your point, you are not clarifying your position. You're reasserting it.

For instance, you could again be asked to articulate your interpretation of the amendment from which that phrase was gleaned and we would be back to where we were several posts ago.

But if the argument it seems you are trying to make is that religion shouldn't be in the public square because it offends some people, then I say that is a personal problem and not a public policy one.

And I'd further state that my interpretation of the amendement in question supports my position that government should not infringe on religion.

Now if you'd like to debate imposing your religion on captive audiences, I'd look forward to discussing that in the context of this debate as well.
 
heyjoeo said:
Or it could be the fact that the First Amendment to the constitution calls for seperation of church and state, and they find it DEMORALIZING to the other religions for them to either have representation, or no representation of any religion at all.

When the founding fathers struggled to put together the documents upon which the colonies could come together under the protection of a federal government, they realized that there were principles that had to be observed in order to make them acceptable to all parties. All were well schooled in the mores that dated back to ancient times the observance of which enabled civilized men to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors. These mores are embodied in the ten commandments.

One would be hard pressed to find a single piece of legislation which does not have its root in the Ten Commandments.

Many of them having experienced religious persecution of one kind or another, all understood that the free society they were creating had to provide a guarantee that the government did not mandate worship in any particular form, or for that matter, worship, at all.

On the other hand, as is clearly evident in many of the early documents, the existence of a Supreme Being was recognized and this existence was recognized by the newly formed government in many ways. Slogans printed on currency, emblazoned on government buildings, included in oaths of office, all attest to this fact. Governmental bodies open their sessions with a prayer to the Almighty which is offered by a chaplain whose salary they pay. Chaplains are provided at government expense to all branches of the military.

For more than two hundred years, none of these practices has ever been deemed by the courts to be unconstitutional.

To this date, the government has never even suggested, much less insisted, that any person follow any particular religious practice, or subscribe to any religion at all. In the matter of religion, all are free to do as they wish.

In recent years, there has been a spate of protests aimed, as it were, at twisting the concept of 'freedom of religion' to read 'freedom from religion'. Had this been the will of the founding fathers, then they would have made that crystal clear in their documents and there would have never been any references, at all, to a Supreme Being. However, they still would have been unable to legislate in ignorance of the Ten Commandments.

I know of no religion which does not observe, if not in every specific detail, at least the major principles embodied in the Ten Commandments. Even athiests, in general, subscribe to the fourth through the tenth commandments.

Of course, there are persons who believe that their behavior should not be constrained in any way, shape, or form. These are persons who uphold the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty especially of thought and action with no governmental intrusion in their lives. They constantly and consistently seek to nibble away at such laws, institutions, customs, and traditions they percieve to be most vulnerable to attack by erosion. They are relatively few in number, but overpoweringly vocal in their demands. After succeeding in finding judges who can be recruited to their cause, they have frightened many politicians into revealing cowardice to defend their positions in the face of nothing more than empty noise.

There is no wall; none was ever intended; none has ever existed, except in the heads of the few who imagine it and, a la Don Quixote, joust with, as the old song title may be bent to suggest, 'The Windmills of Their Minds'.

The belief is strong that their goal is the transformation of the US to a Godless society which mirrors that of the lately disintegrated USSR.
 
The problem isn't offending people without religions. It's preferential treatment to one religion. Personally, I don't care. But I fear seperation of church and state being ignored with Bush's "faith based" programs. Sure, he can be whatever religion he wants. Keep it the f*** out of your policy.
 
heyjoeo said:
The problem isn't offending people without religions. It's preferential treatment to one religion. Personally, I don't care. But I fear seperation of church and state being ignored with Bush's "faith based" programs. Sure, he can be whatever religion he wants. Keep it the f*** out of your policy.

The Faith Based Initiatives make funding available to any religious organization. It's not limited to Christian organizations. They are neutral to religion, being available to any religion, and would not be violating the separation of church and state, anyway.

We debated this in NEDA this semester, and this was a case trying to show a violation of the establishment clause, so I am somewhat familiar with the arguments for and against it.
 
Re: fightenmad

vauge said:
Show me where in the constitution that it says "seperation of church and state" and I will buy you whatever book you want on Amazon.

No, it doesn't say "seperation of church and state." It says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

It's called the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment (so important it's first!)

"At an absolute minimum, the Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion, such as existed in many other countries at the time of the nation's founding. It is far less clear whether the Establishment Clause was also intended to prevent the federal government from supporting Christianity in general. Proponents of a narrow interpretation of the clause point out that the same First Congress that proposed the Bill of Rights also opened its legislative day with prayer and voted to apportion federal dollars to establish Christian missions in the Indian lands. On the other hand, persons seeing a far broader meaning in the clause point to writings by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison suggesting the need to establish "a wall of separation" between church and state."

P.S. No one ever says, "Play it again, Sam" in Casa Blanca.
 
bryanf said:
The Faith Based Initiatives make funding available to any religious organization.

That may be so, yet every penny of the 1.1 billion dollars spent on "faith-based initiatives" have gone to Christian organizations. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

It's called the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment (so important it's first!)

"At an absolute minimum, the Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion, such as existed in many other countries at the time of the nation's founding. It is far less clear whether the Establishment Clause was also intended to prevent the federal government from supporting Christianity in general. Proponents of a narrow interpretation of the clause point out that the same First Congress that proposed the Bill of Rights also opened its legislative day with prayer and voted to apportion federal dollars to establish Christian missions in the Indian lands. On the other hand, persons seeing a far broader meaning in the clause point to writings by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison suggesting the need to establish "a wall of separation" between church and state."
Your absolutely right.
But it also DOES NOT SAY that the government should not allow specfic references to any religion in public places either. Since they allowed and condoned Christian practices within the government facilities, as they still do today in congress, why on earth do you believe that Thomas Jeffersons' "seperation of church and state" is literal?

I believe he was saying that it is scary and the government could very easily establish a national religion or become a religion all in itself if we are not careful.
 
This debate has been invaluable to me. Through reading all of the sides, I've come to realize what is really important.

I REFUSE to bow down to an atheist god. I will not allow the state or a functionary thereof to tell me that it is not right for me to express or practice my beleifs. If I choose to pray in public, I will. If I choose to allow my child to pray in school, I will. And woe to the school administrator who stands in my way.

If my child were arrested for mentioning God at his/her graduation, I would PROUDLY post bail and I'm sure that finding funding for a legal defense wouldn't be hard at all.

If this somehow makes me some sort of reactionary or incensitive to others, so be it, but I promise you that I have seen my share of individuals stand before me and defend their choices and lifestyles and place their beleifs on parade for the whole world to see. It is only fair that I may be able to stand in front of people and say, Yes, I beleive in Christ.

Furthermore, my relationship with Christ is personal. That's right, the stereotypical "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I'm not about to spout off how you need to conduct your spiritual affairs. I would appreciate it if people would stay the hell out of my spiritual life and allow me my CONSTITUTIONAL and GOD GIVEN right to practice my faith without recourse.

My faith will never infringe on anyone elses ability to practice what ever religion they so choose as long as they don't practice the same hypocrasy that they claim christians do, and that's forcing their beleifs on others.

Having said all this. . .

This was not a reply to anyone in particular. These were my thoughts and feelings on the matter. The debate is still open regarding the nitty-gritty. I may still play devil's advocate (how ironic). All I will say is that I would rather die than deny christ. The state can take my life, but they can't take my soul.
 
Very eloquent, LiberalFINGER, and Amen.

I agree. The individual's right to exercise his or her religion is one of the first rights embodied in the Constitution. Any government infringement upon that right is a violation of the first amendment.

A few quotes that you may like. Benjamin Franklin, a well-known deist said this: "The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men.”

Again, in the Constitution the state of Ohio, where I live, it says that "Religion, morality, and knowledge [are] essential to good government."

Further, John Adams, who wrote the oldest constitution in use today (Massachusetts - which provided a basis for much of the national constitution), said of U.S. Constitution: "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
 
bryanf said:
Religion gives people a moral standard to live up to, and they don't like it...But, the second that people assert that there may, in fact, be absolute standards for right and wrong, they get riled up.

See, this is where progressives bump heads with Christians. And lets be frank, we are talking about Christians here. No other religious group in America that I know of is trying to "religicize" American life.
Religion is not the only way of giving people a moral standard. That is an insult to my mother I'll have you know. I LOVE moral standards; I try to follow them everyday. When I see consistency in the moral standards of Christians I will be much more open to their influence in the life of my children. What I see now from them is a hodge-podge and often conflicting set of moral standards square-dancing around the issues of abortion and gay marriage. Hardly the most pressing problems facing the world today. They are knee-jerk issues that keep people ignorant to the real dilemmas facing mankind.
As far as religion in our schools here in Louisiana go, not only is religious symbolism allowed in school, but there are also teacher-sponsored Christian groups and teacher-guided discussions of Christianity in classes. My kids have come home with stories of talks about creationism (in Algebra class!) and the "rightness" of being a Christian and of teachers making racial slurs against Muslims and their religion. These situations make my children very uncomfortable and put them on the spot as tolerant non-Christians. Luckily they have the courage to stand up for what they believe and aren't afraid to say so, but at the same time it makes me worry about their safety at times.
It should be obvious to anyone why religion needs to stay out of our schools and all government acts and institutions. Our country is synonomous with the idea of tolerance, freedom and EQUALITY (at least it used to be). Showing preference to one set of Americans is simply un-American. And gives the "preferred set" an unrealistic sense of their supremacy. Like we've done for the rich and famous, don't you see?
 
Liberalfinger and bryanf,

Who exactly is trying to take away your right to worship as you wish? All we want is the right to have our schools and government free from ANY religious influence. Why is that infringing on your right to religion? You live in America, and in America my right to be a non-Christian is as sacred as your right to be one. I respect the strength and sanctity of your beliefs. Why do my beliefs have to take a backseat in order for yours to be validated?
 
I disagree with the idea of saying that Christianity defines morals. That is just silly.

But, I do agree with the idea that our consitution is founded on "Christian morals". Those morals are defined within our laws.

If you don't believe in God - that is fine. If your son or daughter doesn't want to talk about it - they don't have to. That same goes for ANY religion. If my children do not want to talk about Buddism or Muslim - they shouldn' t have to. They can sit and listen, maybe they will learn something. But if their little ears can't handle words about a sensative subject then I didn't do my job.

As far as talking about Chrisitanity in Algebra - the whole story is missing.
The discussion probably lead to talking about Christianity rather than the teacher starting the subject.
 
vauge said:
But, I do agree with the idea that our consitution is founded on "Christian morals". Those morals are defined within our laws.

Show me where in the constitution it says "Christian morals" and I'll buy you whatever book you want on Amazon.

By the way, "Christian morals" is ultimately Jewish morals, since Christianity is an off shoot of Judaism (as is Islam). And the Jews didn't invent morality. It developed over thousands of years of human intellectual evolution. And the ancient Greeks and the later enlightenment philosophers had as much to do with the shaping of the Constitution as Christ did.
 
Heyjoeo
The problem isn't offending people without religions. It's preferential treatment to one religion. Personally, I don't care. But I fear seperation of church and state being ignored with Bush's "faith based" programs. Sure, he can be whatever religion he wants. Keep it the f*** out of your policy.
How can you say the problem isn't offending people without religion when the atheist are adviously offended. They are filing lawsuits upon lawsuits because they are offended. It offends them that God is mentioned in the pledge of allegience. They are filing lawsuits because kids are giving out Candy Canes at Christmas. They are filing lawsuits for diplaying nativity scenes to celebrate Christmas. Christmas has come under fire from the non believers.

I find it quite a waste of time for the courts and our tax dollors to be spent for this BS.

I have a solution for all people that have a problem with Christmas. Leave the country. If you don't like it you can leave. Christmas is a national holiday just like the 4th of July.
Back in 1870 Christmas was made an official government holiday. So if you don't like it you can leave. Thats just the way it is.

Christmas Day, December 25, is another Christian holiday; it marks the birth of the Christ Child. Decorating houses and yards with lights, putting up Christmas trees, giving gifts, and sending greeting cards have become traditions even for many non-Christian Americans
. http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/factover/holidays.htm
 
vauge said:
If you don't believe in God - that is fine. If your son or daughter doesn't want to talk about it - they don't have to. That same goes for ANY religion. If my children do not want to talk about Buddism or Muslim - they shouldn' t have to. They can sit and listen, maybe they will learn something. But if their little ears can't handle words about a sensative subject then I didn't do my job.
As far as talking about Chrisitanity in Algebra - the whole story is missing. The discussion probably lead to talking about Christianity rather than the teacher starting the subject.
Come on, vauge, if your children were sitting in Algebra class and the teacher of that Algebra class happened to be Islamic, along with a majority of the other children in the class, and the tide of discussion in the room turned to Islam and it's being the "one true way" you would not have a problem with that?
I don't have a problem with my children learning about the religion of others. In fact, I homeschool my youngest child and am teaching her about all of the religious holidays celebrated this month including the story of Christ's birth. I have a problem with them being in a math class where the teacher allows and participates in a discussion purporting the truth of creationism. And rightly so.
 
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