C. Gerstle
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- Joined
- Jun 22, 2009
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- Slightly Liberal
Separation of church and state is an idea that was largely started in America by the Founding Fathers. They explicitly stated that the United States was not founded on Christianity or any other religion, the complete opposite of what was going on in Europe at the time, where every nation had an official state-funded church.
How times have changed. The line separating church and state has blurred somehow in America due to the rise of the Christian Right, leading to ridiculous displays of religiosity in government from the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls to nativity scenes on display at city governments. Meanwhile in Europe, public school teachers aren't even allowed to wear religious accessories such as necklaces at work. I look at the growth of a firmly secular European Union and the descent of America into religious dogmatism and think to myself "What happened to secular America?" This is a country where senatorial campaigners can insult atheists in campaign ads (2008 NC Senatorial race Dole vs Hagan) and get away with it. We can't get away with making racy, not even racist, comments in politics, but you can get away with attacking a political opponent for accepting campaign donations from atheists.
America needs to take a few lessons from Europe. The ridiculous religiosity in America (something that sets America apart from the rest of the developed world) makes this country look like a, to use Sam Harris' words, "bellicose, dim-witted giant." Any thoughts?
Separation of church and state is an idea that was largely started in America by the Founding Fathers. They explicitly stated that the United States was not founded on Christianity or any other religion, the complete opposite of what was going on in Europe at the time, where every nation had an official state-funded church.
How times have changed. The line separating church and state has blurred somehow in America due to the rise of the Christian Right, leading to ridiculous displays of religiosity in government from the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls to nativity scenes on display at city governments. Meanwhile in Europe, public school teachers aren't even allowed to wear religious accessories such as necklaces at work. I look at the growth of a firmly secular European Union and the descent of America into religious dogmatism and think to myself "What happened to secular America?" This is a country where senatorial campaigners can insult atheists in campaign ads (2008 NC Senatorial race Dole vs Hagan) and get away with it. We can't get away with making racy, not even racist, comments in politics, but you can get away with attacking a political opponent for accepting campaign donations from atheists.
America needs to take a few lessons from Europe. The ridiculous religiosity in America (something that sets America apart from the rest of the developed world) makes this country look like a, to use Sam Harris' words, "bellicose, dim-witted giant." Any thoughts?
The ten commandments are a metaphor for the rule of law. It is not in any way endorsing any religion. Well that is unless a militant atheist who is angry at all religion sees it and decides to be offended. :lol:
I don't know how representative they are of law. Only two of the commandments are actually laws (kill and steal). Also, the first three are entirely religious and make no sense outside of the context of Abrahamic religion
I agree with the rest of what you said. I just don't think the 10 commandments are relevant to our legal system at all
I agree with the rest of what you said. I just don't think the 10 commandments are relevant to our legal system at all
Blackdog,
If the presence of the Ten Commandments on courthouse buildings is metaphorical what is the meaning of the metaphor? I can appreciate Goshin's point about them being present as part of a wider display on the evolution of written law but I'm not clear on how you understand the meaning behind the metaphor.
Separation of church and state is an idea that was largely started in America by the Founding Fathers. They explicitly stated that the United States was not founded on Christianity or any other religion, the complete opposite of what was going on in Europe at the time, where every nation had an official state-funded church.
How times have changed. The line separating church and state has blurred somehow in America due to the rise of the Christian Right, leading to ridiculous displays of religiosity in government from the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls to nativity scenes on display at city governments. Meanwhile in Europe, public school teachers aren't even allowed to wear religious accessories such as necklaces at work. I look at the growth of a firmly secular European Union and the descent of America into religious dogmatism and think to myself "What happened to secular America?" This is a country where senatorial campaigners can insult atheists in campaign ads (2008 NC Senatorial race Dole vs Hagan) and get away with it. We can't get away with making racy, not even racist, comments in politics, but you can get away with attacking a political opponent for accepting campaign donations from atheists.
America needs to take a few lessons from Europe. The ridiculous religiosity in America (something that sets America apart from the rest of the developed world) makes this country look like a, to use Sam Harris' words, "bellicose, dim-witted giant." Any thoughts?
It doesn't really need to mean anything. It doesn't violate the Consitution. If it doesn't violate the Constitution and the majority of a state wants something, there's nothing wrong with it legally. You don't like it, move to another state. Vote with your feet.Blackdog, If the presence of the Ten Commandments on courthouse buildings is metaphorical what is the meaning of the metaphor? I can appreciate Goshin's point about them being present as part of a wider display on the evolution of written law but I'm not clear on how you understand the meaning behind the metaphor.
Religious Test For Political Office =/= The Ten Commandments. What the hell is people's problem with all that crap? Many of states back in the time of the Founders had state churches. If the Founders meant the First Amendment to mean what the ACLU think it does, it would never have been ratified by a majority of the states. Period.To address the OP more specifically, the problem as I see it is, as Blackdog said, the demographics of the country. If it's true that c. 70% of the nation is Christian (although I'd argue that a reasonable proportion of them would separate that from their political views) then that's naturally going to translate in to pressure on politicians to appeal to their vote. The fundamental tension is between the First Amendment (no religious test for office) and democratic politics. Not something that can easily be remedied.
There's a difference between religious rule and a country that has freedom of religion and democracy where a high percentage of people are Christian. To the unkeen eye it might seem like Christianity is law, but really it's just Christians exercising their democracy. There has been relative balance for a long time now.
It's the evangelicals that are the biggest threat to the U.S. political system because they would unify Church and State if they could, but they are not representative of the majority of Christians living in the U.S. Likewise, I think the rampant secularists are also a problem when they go after every little piece of religious iconography that appears in the public realm, ignoring completely their traditional origins. It's only causing a **** storm that is making the far religious right want to fight back.
The two can live in peace if they would just grow up already and stop trying to be thought police for the rest of the population.
You know that some European countries have state-funded religious schools, right?
"Today's 'Christian Right' would have been considered pansy, Jesus-hating leftists a few hundred years ago. We've gotten less religious, not more. We did not have a 'descent into religious dogmatism'."
I disagree. I'm not sure how you're making this comparison but the United States has certainly become, if not more religious, more actively religious. Survey data (from Pew polls and other sources) shows that the percentage of people in the United States that rate religious belief as 'very important' is 61%, second only to Turkey (65%) by comparison with Europe. As a comparison, Britain polled at 33%, Italy at 27%, Germany at 21% and France at 11%. These statistics are further emphasised by weekly church attendance data, with an average of 42% of Americans attending church once or almost once every week compared with an average of 21% in Europe and this gap is growing.
On a more anecdotal level, consider the rise of evangelical figures over the past quarter of a century: Pat Robertson, Billy Graham etc. These mass-based evangelical churches are a recent phenomenon and their numbers have swelled drastically over the past twenty five years. Granted many of these people would have made a 'lateral move' so to speak, i.e. they simply joined from another church. However, these new evangelical churches are far more vocal and politically active than many of the more 'traditional' churches.
It does not apply to state governments, only to the federal government. Like I've said before, there were plenty of state churches during the time of the Founders that persisted after the Consitution went into effect. If the ACLU's interpretation of it was accurate, a) many people would have viciously opposed it for that reason, and b) the state churches would not exist after the Constitution went into effect. Neither of these are true.People seem to forget what the constitution says on the matter (1st Amendment):
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
So we have the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause.
Per the Establishment Clause: "The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion."
It applies to the federal government and the state governments. This doesn't say that religion should be out of government. It says that government must not choose a religion.
It would depend, I think. It would not be following the spirit of constitutional law to outlaw some obscure, not-considered-immoral-for-any-good-reason act practiced solely by a particular religion.So the government can restrict religious practices. But otherwise must stay out of the business of religion.
It does not violate the Constitution to put up the Ten Commandments at a state or even a federal courthouse, because Congress is not making any law to do so (I might be wrong on that, please correct me if I am). If a majority of the population of a community want the Ten Commandments at a courthouse, they can have the Ten Commandments at their courthouse.It seems that a case could be made against the sole display of the ten commandments outside a courthouse. In the case of the SC, the 10 commandments are displayed with the code of Hammurabi and other systems of written law - that seems acceptable. But the sole display, in front of a courthouse, may violate the Establishment Clause, since a government entity is favoring one religion over the others and over non-religion. Evidently the sole display is religious in nature while the combined display at the SC is historical in nature.
It does not apply to state governments, only to the federal government. Like I've said before, there were plenty of state churches during the time of the Founders that persisted after the Consitution went into effect. If the ACLU's interpretation of it was accurate, a) many people would have viciously opposed it for that reason, and b) the state churches would not exist after the Constitution went into effect. Neither of these are true.
It does not violate the Constitution to put up the Ten Commandments at a state or even a federal courthouse, because Congress is not making any law to do so (I might be wrong on that, please correct me if I am). If a majority of the population of a community want the Ten Commandments at a courthouse, they can have the Ten Commandments at their courthouse.
Correct, at the time of the founding. However:
"Originally, the First Amendment only applied to the federal government. Subsequently, McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 (1948) incorporated certain select provisions. However, it was not until the middle to late twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in such a manner as to restrict the promotion of religion by state governments. In the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."
That seems plausible.
Separation of church and state is an idea that was largely started in America by the Founding Fathers. They explicitly stated that the United States was not founded on Christianity or any other religion, the complete opposite of what was going on in Europe at the time, where every nation had an official state-funded church.
How times have changed. The line separating church and state has blurred somehow in America due to the rise of the Christian Right, leading to ridiculous displays of religiosity in government from the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls to nativity scenes on display at city governments. Meanwhile in Europe, public school teachers aren't even allowed to wear religious accessories such as necklaces at work. I look at the growth of a firmly secular European Union and the descent of America into religious dogmatism and think to myself "What happened to secular America?" This is a country where senatorial campaigners can insult atheists in campaign ads (2008 NC Senatorial race Dole vs Hagan) and get away with it. We can't get away with making racy, not even racist, comments in politics, but you can get away with attacking a political opponent for accepting campaign donations from atheists.
America needs to take a few lessons from Europe. The ridiculous religiosity in America (something that sets America apart from the rest of the developed world) makes this country look like a, to use Sam Harris' words, "bellicose, dim-witted giant." Any thoughts?
America needs to take a few lessons from Europe. The ridiculous religiosity in America (something that sets America apart from the rest of the developed world) makes this country look like a, to use Sam Harris' words, "bellicose, dim-witted giant." Any thoughts?
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