Separation of Church and State: Comparing America and Europe

[FluffyNinja]

I don't think one can defend the argument that America was founded on Christian principles.

I can. :mrgreen:

 

[Ikari]

I can. :mrgreen:

K, fair enough. I don't think once can confidently argue with demonstrated significance and confidence that America was founded solely on Christian principles. Again...at best 30% of the 10 commandments are illegal. If founded on Christian principles, more of those would be law.

 

[FluffyNinja]

K, fair enough. I don't think once can confidently argue with demonstrated significance and confidence that America was founded solely on Christian principles. Again...at best 30% of the 10 commandments are illegal. If founded on Christian principles, more of those would be law.

Ok, the art of semantics. You are correct, I will not argue that it was founded SOLEY upon Judeo-Christian Principles (we have to remember, Native Americans were somewhat involved - and they certainly were not Christians at the time); however, I'd venture more like 70% of the "Founding" of this nation was driven by the religious faith of those involved; which WAS, overwhelmingly, Judeo-Christian.

 

[Ikari]

Many founders had varying religious beliefs. However, the common thread in the vast majority of them is an acceptance of the ideals of Hobbes and Locke and Kant. Thus I would argue that beyond religious considerations, the major influence were these new ideals of freedom, liberty, and the rights of the individual. Which is clearly what the law of the land was constructed to protect and proliferate.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Many founders had varying religious beliefs.

ok, name them (and remember you said MANY) and explain how their beliefs differed from Christianity.

However, the common thread in the vast majority of them is an acceptance of the ideals of Hobbes and Locke and Kant. Thus I would argue that beyond religious considerations, the major influence were these new ideals of freedom, liberty, and the rights of the individual. Which is clearly what the law of the land was constructed to protect and proliferate.

And I would argue that their understandings of the ideas of Locke, Hobbes, etc. were based SOLEY on their understanding of God as the Creator (as is evident in their quotes/writings and the founding documents). I would also argue that they believed the same rights/freedoms you named (freedom, liberty, individual, etc.) to be God-Given (and I DO mean the God of Judeo-Christians here). If you want me to give evidence, I have gigabytes of it, LOL

 

[FluffyNinja]

BTW this was covered quite thoroughly in a thread I started over 2 years ago, I think it was: US..... A Christian Nation? or something like that. I think there were over 500 posts and 20,000 views last I checked. But I certainly do not mind exploring the "History of America's Christian Heritage" once again, if that's what you want to do

 

[Ikari]

ok, name them (and remember you said MANY) and explain how their beliefs differed from Christianity.

I said that many founders had varying religious beliefs. And it's true. They were not all of the same religion. There are various sects of Christianity represented (the differing sects have different ideals and practices though all forms of Christianity share a common foundation), deists, and perhaps even atheists. Though that is harder to say as at the time you could not publicly announce atheism without serious repercussions. Though as I said before, in private communication with his son, Jefferson expressed more atheistic ideals instead of deist.

And I would argue that their understandings of the ideas of Locke, Hobbes, etc. were based SOLEY on their understanding of God as the Creator (as is evident in their quotes/writings and the founding documents). I would also argue that they believed the same rights/freedoms you named (freedom, liberty, individual, etc.) to be God-Given (and I DO mean the God of Judeo-Christians here). If you want me to give evidence, I have gigabytes of it, LOL

In fact not. Some evoked a god in order to solidify their arguments or to bypass some of the philosophical difficulties which arise with natural rights. However, Kant for one did not and derived the existence of natural rights from reason alone.

 

[FluffyNinja]

In fact not. Some evoked a god in order to solidify their arguments or to bypass some of the philosophical difficulties which arise with natural rights. However, Kant for one did not and derived the existence of natural rights from reason alone.

And I'm sorry, but I won't start going down a path of philosophical debate. Look up Cephus or reefedjib for that, :lol: I will only discuss/debate the HISTORICAL evidence, since that is really all we have to go on, when trying to get inside the heads of the Founding Fathers (until someone invents a time machine, that is). How can we pretend to know how Madison, Jefferson, or Hancock each interpreted the writings of Kant, or Locke, or whomever, UNLESS they WROTE about it. I don't remember reading anything Madison specifically said or referenced regarding Kant or Voltaire or Montesquieu: however I HAVE read MANY, MANY references to God, Jesus, and Christianity in his correspondence.

 

[American]

"Today's 'Christian Right' would have been considered pansy, Jesus-hating leftists a few hundred years ago. We've gotten less religious, not more. We did not have a 'descent into religious dogmatism'."

I disagree. I'm not sure how you're making this comparison but the United States has certainly become, if not more religious, more actively religious. Survey data (from Pew polls and other sources) shows that the percentage of people in the United States that rate religious belief as 'very important' is 61%, second only to Turkey (65%) by comparison with Europe. As a comparison, Britain polled at 33%, Italy at 27%, Germany at 21% and France at 11%. These statistics are further emphasised by weekly church attendance data, with an average of 42% of Americans attending church once or almost once every week compared with an average of 21% in Europe and this gap is growing.

On a more anecdotal level, consider the rise of evangelical figures over the past quarter of a century: Pat Robertson, Billy Graham etc. These mass-based evangelical churches are a recent phenomenon and their numbers have swelled drastically over the past twenty five years. Granted many of these people would have made a 'lateral move' so to speak, i.e. they simply joined from another church. However, these new evangelical churches are far more vocal and politically active than many of the more 'traditional' churches.

Wrong, read about Ben Franklin who grew up in a Puritan town where men were sent around to make sure you showed up for church. You have no idea.

 

[theunbubba]

The origin of the separation of church and state came from Jesus Christ.
Jesus said: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and unto God that which is God's." Luke: 20:25
This is codification of the idea of separation by the man himself.
Separation of the body and soul, but also separation of the church from the state.
He preached against the punishment of sins by the secular law stopping a stoning by saying: "Let ye among thee who hath not sinned cast the first stone". And telling the woman who was to be stoned, when she asked what her punishment should be: "Go, and sin no more." John 8:2-11

The Christian churches have been infiltrated by Sharia thought for too long. This must stop. Sharia makes religious law also secular law. The Habit worn by Nuns is a direct infiltration of this thought. It is like the burkha.

 

[Paschendale]

The origin of the separation of church and state came from Jesus Christ.
Jesus said: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and unto God that which is God's." Luke: 20:25
This is codification of the idea of separation by the man himself.
Separation of the body and soul, but also separation of the church from the state.
He preached against the punishment of sins by the secular law stopping a stoning by saying: "Let ye among thee who hath not sinned cast the first stone". And telling the woman who was to be stoned, when she asked what her punishment should be: "Go, and sin no more." John 8:2-11

The Christian churches have been infiltrated by Sharia thought for too long. This must stop. Sharia makes religious law also secular law. The Habit worn by Nuns is a direct infiltration of this thought. It is like the burkha.

Funny how it took us 1700 years to start actually doing this thing that was supposedly suggested by Jesus. That passage also refers to rendering more to god and less to Caesar, which is what organized christianity has used its power to do ever since. It was by reducing the influence of religion that we were able to create an enlightened society.