Seeking Clean Discussion and to Understand Pro-Choice Stance (1 Viewer)

[Crusader13]

How about you answer the points as they were presented instead of setting up a straw man?

Maybe next time YOUR family is threatened with violence you'll actually have the balls to admit it was someone in your own family doing the threatening. Your whiny rhetorical McGuffin doesn't impress me.

The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? Is anyone allowed to compare the plight of the unborn to them?
They ARE born, and since you insist on framing this as left versus right, the ASSHOLES on the right have apparently decided that poor people who get sick should just go find a quiet place to die.

You are not excused. You ARE an excuse. Your argument is an excuse. A LAME one.
You're not excused because the moment an infant is born, you on the right start screeching about how both mother and child are criminals for mooching, and you can't wait to run to the "Escalade driving welfare queen who you saw buying steak in the supermarket with her EBT card", as if every person who ever asked for help buying food is a professional criminal.

You're not pro-life, you're PRO-BIRTH and you don't give two ****s if the child being born is going to live two days of sheer agony due to birth defects which cannot be overcome, you don't care if the woman was impregnated by a rapist and you don't care it was her father who raped her, you only care about the vagina being under your control.

We can't sink to a NEW LOW because you on the right set the bar for all time. And you just reinforced your position at the bottom of the barrel by starting off your hysterical crap-fest by implying that all immigrants are illegal.

"...and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn."

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Pro-life people, the majority of which are religious, are responsible for the vast majority of the world's charity. The Catholic Church alone has more unpaid employees, sponsored hospitals, missionary programs and cheques written than any other organization.

It is those on the right that are fighting to protect capitalism from the left who is seeking to abolish it. Capitalism - the single most effective system ever created to lift the poor into riches, or give people a reason to invent new technology, medicine, life-saving products which we all rely on, including widows, prisoners, orphans etc.

It is those on the right who ensure the economy stays afloat with responsible spending, as opposed to the left who want to give everyone a free pass to luxury merely for existing. Without a stable economy there is nothing for these so called widows, orphans, immigrants, prisoners etx to live off.

It is those on the right fighting to protecting the clear line between male and female, so that born men cannot legally enter women's private spaces and potentially take advantage of them, or compete in their sports with an ungair advantage which would drive the real women out of the competition, or to enter the woman's ward in prison and rape these prisoners.

So no, you're just wrong the right does more to preserve basic social interests for everyone than the left can ever imagine. That we are not loudly lobbying for more rights for prisoners while innocent babies are being thrown into buckets of acid and disposed in garbage cans is not a fault, it's a feature, one that good people on the right will continue to fight for

 

[Lursa]

Pro-life people, the majority of which are religious, are responsible for the vast majority of the world's charity. The Catholic Church alone has more unpaid employees, sponsored hospitals, missionary programs and cheques written than any other organization.

This is incorrect. Please source it. The Gates Foundation in Seattle hands out $4 billion a year and much of that is focused on women's rights around the world, as recognition that women's equality in the home and the community lead to greater peace and family stability and community growth.

As a single entity, the Catholic Church doesnt donate more. It may receive more $$ in donations from adherents but nobody says that $$ goes back out to charities.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Pro-life people, the majority of which are religious, are responsible for the vast majority of the world's charity. The Catholic Church alone has more unpaid employees, sponsored hospitals, missionary programs and cheques written than any other organization.

---And that has to do with the polarization, the lies, the demonization and the violence surrounding all of this HOW, exactly?

It is those on the right that are fighting to protect capitalism from the left who is seeking to abolish it. Capitalism - the single most effective system ever created to lift the poor into riches, or give people a reason to invent new technology, medicine, life-saving products which we all rely on, including widows, prisoners, orphans etc.

---Abolish capitalism?
Are you nine years old or do you just make a habit out of making fantasy arguments only a nine year old would take seriously as a form of entertainment? You can't possibly be serious. The "left who are seeking to abolish capitalism" can seek for the next two hundred years and it's a safe bet that we will continue using the system that has served us for the last three hundred: capitalism. And that's because it is utter nonsense to listen to you trying to paint an imaginary picture of Mr. and Mrs. America waking up on November 9, 2020 and seeing a test pattern on television with:
"SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT - THE UNITED STATES IS NOW SOCIALIST" on the screen.

AND DON'T EVEN START WHINING ABOUT INSULTS because the moment you start in with "LEFTISTS WANT TO ABOLISH CAPITALISM", YOU ARE INSULTING EVERYONE.

If capitalism fails, it will be because it was destroyed from within, not because a handful of extremists on the fringe Left said some magic words.

It is those on the right who ensure the economy stays afloat with responsible spending, as opposed to the left who want to give everyone a free pass to luxury merely for existing.

---Free stuff, sure...did Rush tell you that or did Hannity?
Thank you for the fact free analysis. Name one person here or in government who wants "free stuff".

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This is incorrect. Please source it. The Gates Foundation in Seattle hands out $4 billion a year and much of that is focused on women's rights around the world, as recognition that women's equality in the home and the community lead to greater peace and family stability and community growth.

As a single entity, the Catholic Church doesnt donate more. It may receive more $$ in donations from adherents but nobody says that $$ goes back out to charities.

This is troll bait, pure troll bait.

 

[year2late]

This is incorrect. Please source it. The Gates Foundation in Seattle hands out $4 billion a year and much of that is focused on women's rights around the world, as recognition that women's equality in the home and the community lead to greater peace and family stability and community growth.

As a single entity, the Catholic Church doesnt donate more. It may receive more $$ in donations from adherents but nobody says that $$ goes back out to charities.

The mismanagement of the pedophile priest scandal has cost the Catholic Church over 3 billion dollars. That is an awful lot of help for the sick and impoverished never got funded because donations were spent on cover up.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Well following your logic the woman can elect to not have sex BEFORE everything and that solves both problems.

Why should she if she doesn't want to?

 

[AlphaOmega]

Why should she if she doesn't want to?

To avoid the pregnancy disease you all speak of.

 

[Scrabaholic]

To avoid the pregnancy disease you all speak of.

She can abort if she chooses to. So, why should she not have sex - which is normal and healthy - if she wants it?

 

[AlphaOmega]

She can abort if she chooses to. So, why should she not have sex - which is normal and healthy - if she wants it?

to avoid killing a defenseless person if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant. Additionally to avoid the pregnancy disease which I was told can kill before you have a chance to abort.

 

[jaeger19]

Wrong. If someone kicks your pregnant wife and the unborn dies. It is not murder according to the pro choice. If that is not true you guys should discuss it in a clean manner.

Nope.. I am in the pro choice crowd.. I have no problem with calling it murder.. especially if its intentional.. otherwise it would be manslaughter.

AND pretty much no one else in the pro choice crowd has a problem with that. You don't see thousands of pro choice folks fighting against laws that if a person beats a pregnant woman kills her fetus, embryo, baby.. that the man is charged with an additional crime because she is pregnant. The pro choice crowd doesn't have a problem with that.


You are the one that's making a strawman argument against it being murder as if that's an argument the pro choice crowd is making.. they are not.


They are making that argument that abortion is NOT murder.. just like taking my father off lifesupport.. or having the doctor giving him a lethal dose to end his suffering is not murder.


You are simply making a strawman argument.. because you don't want to deal with the reality.. that your position violates the right of the fetus/ebryo/life.. to have their parents speak for whats best for them
2. Violates the right of the mother to make the decision of whats best for herself.


You want to violate the rights of both of them by deciding what YOU think is best for both lives.

 

[Nickyjo]

The issue, however resolved, leaves misgivings in everyone. In my view, the Clintons said it best, that public policy should steer abortions to being “safe, legal and rare.”

 

[jaeger19]

to avoid killing a defenseless person if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant. Additionally to avoid the pregnancy disease which I was told can kill before you have a chance to abort.

Number one.. no birth control is 100% effective.

Number two.. a woman who ends up pregnant.. at the time.. may have had circumstances where they did not have to avoid pregnancy.. and only later.. after being pregnant and say suffering life threatening illness due to the pregnancy needs to choose between abortion and her health.


Number three.. pregnancy from incest and rape are not voluntary.


4. The idea that woman are routinely using abortion as a means of birth control is so ludicrous its laughable. A sexually active woman.. if she has an abortion in the first trimester... would be having 4 or more abortions a YEAR if she was using it as birth control...

and that is certainly not happening with ANY regularity. The idea is used as birth control is just a made up argument by you anti choice people.

 

[Scrabaholic]

to avoid killing a defenseless person if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant. Additionally to avoid the pregnancy disease which I was told can kill before you have a chance to abort.

That has no bearing on the woman who does not believe the zef is a person and whose opinion is that abortion is okay. Early term abortion can prevent dying from pregnancy related causes.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Nope.. I am in the pro choice crowd.. I have no problem with calling it murder.. especially if its intentional.. otherwise it would be manslaughter.

AND pretty much no one else in the pro choice crowd has a problem with that. You don't see thousands of pro choice folks fighting against laws that if a person beats a pregnant woman kills her fetus, embryo, baby.. that the man is charged with an additional crime because she is pregnant. The pro choice crowd doesn't have a problem with that.


You are the one that's making a strawman argument against it being murder as if that's an argument the pro choice crowd is making.. they are not.


They are making that argument that abortion is NOT murder.. just like taking my father off lifesupport.. or having the doctor giving him a lethal dose to end his suffering is not murder.


You are simply making a strawman argument.. because you don't want to deal with the reality.. that your position violates the right of the fetus/ebryo/life.. to have their parents speak for whats best for them
2. Violates the right of the mother to make the decision of whats best for herself.


You want to violate the rights of both of them by deciding what YOU think is best for both lives.

I've made no strawman argument at all. Pro choicers have stated as fact it is not murder. If you say it is please cite the law and respond to your fellow pro choicers posts with your facts. I asked the question to pro choicers and you guys keep giving conflicting answers. As I said before...converse amongst yourselves then give me the consensus answer. Yours is the minority.

 

[AlphaOmega]

That has no bearing on the woman who does not believe the zef is a person and whose opinion is that abortion is okay. Early term abortion can prevent dying from pregnancy related causes.

Wow so women choose sex over possible death? Sorry but it is killing an innocent human being. Whatever way you look at it to help ypu sleep at night is not my concern. I'm just wondering why women would risk their own death at contracting pregnancy disease.

 

[year2late]

to avoid killing a defenseless person if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant. Additionally to avoid the pregnancy disease which I was told can kill before you have a chance to abort.

What person is being killed?

 

[year2late]

To avoid the pregnancy disease you all speak of.

She can have an abortion if desired if her contraception fails

 

[AlphaOmega]

She can have an abortion if desired if her contraception fails

According tonyoyr fellow pro choice...pregnancy disease can strike you before you have time to abort. So the question stands...why would a woman risk death for sex rather than just be responsible?

 

[AlphaOmega]

What person is being killed?

What do you call the thing you ended the heartbeat on? probably cells or something to make you think its not a human being right?

 

[Obscurity]

According tonyoyr fellow pro choice...pregnancy disease can strike you before you have time to abort. So the question stands...why would a woman risk death for sex rather than just be responsible?

Tell me what person is killed with an abortion.

Here's the real question.

Why the **** is it your goddamned business who ****s who?

Seriously pathetic.

 

[Obscurity]

What do you call the thing you ended the heartbeat on? probably cells or something to make you think its not a human being right?

Life does not equate personhood, from whence rights are derived. Otherwise, blacks, who were not considered full persons, would have had rights during slavery.

Tell me, when is a pomegranate seed sized lump of cells a person, what gives it personhood, and how does it qualify as an individual, what positions does it take that gives it this label?

 

[jaeger19]

I've made no strawman argument at all. Pro choicers have stated as fact it is not murder. y.

No.. they do not stated that abortion is murder.

They are not stating that if a fellow purposely kicks a pregnant woman to kill her fetus.. that its not murder. That's just not happening in any pro choice rally. They are not rallying to say "its not murder"..

What they state is not murder.. is abortion. I don't need to "tell my fellow pro choicers".. because I don't see them protesting outside capitols.. claiming that if a pregnant women gets kicked and the baby dies.. the person doing it.. should not receive any further punishment because the woman lost the embryo/fetus/baby.

Just not happening dude.

what I see.. is folks like yourself.. outside clinics.. screaming "Murderer".. at young woman getting pap smears for womans health. . Or get counseling on birth control.. or are getting tested for PID, or kidney and bladder infections or cancer screenings.

I am definitely not in the minority here.

 

[AlphaOmega]

No.. they do not stated that abortion is murder.

They are not stating that if a fellow purposely kicks a pregnant woman to kill her fetus.. that its not murder. That's just not happening in any pro choice rally. They are not rallying to say "its not murder"..

What they state is not murder.. is abortion. I don't need to "tell my fellow pro choicers".. because I don't see them protesting outside capitols.. claiming that if a pregnant women gets kicked and the baby dies.. the person doing it.. should not receive any further punishment because the woman lost the embryo/fetus/baby.

Just not happening dude.

what I see.. is folks like yourself.. outside clinics.. screaming "Murderer".. at young woman getting pap smears for womans health. . Or get counseling on birth control.. or are getting tested for PID, or kidney and bladder infections or cancer screenings.

I am definitely not in the minority here.

Please read the thread. When you acknowledge the written posts we can continue. I don't argue fact.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Life does not equate personhood, from whence rights are derived. Otherwise, blacks, who were not considered full persons, would have had rights during slavery.

Tell me, when is a pomegranate seed sized lump of cells a person, what gives it personhood, and how does it qualify as an individual, what positions does it take that gives it this label?

Its a person the second you need to kill it otherwise yoy woukdn't need to kill it.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Tell me what person is killed with an abortion.

Here's the real question.

Why the **** is it your goddamned business who ****s who?

Seriously pathetic.

Clean debate was requested by the op. Please try to control your emotions. I understand that some of you want have this right. It is to your advantage to have a cogent argument. So far your side has stated contradicting points on whether its murder if an assault on a pregnant woman that leads to the death of her unborn is murder. I am still waiting for pro choicers to discuss amongst themselves and come up with a cogent definitive answer. Your side literally is not in agreement on this.