Secession brewing?

[Erod]

I travel a lot. I'm in New York, LA, Boston, Chicago, DC, etc, at least twice a year on business, so I know the "feel" that exists in different parts of the country. And for context, I live in the suburbs of Dallas.

I've always been fascinated, and amused, by the different reflections of the country in different parts. However, I'm now getting to the point of being scared by what I see. I don't understand how the mainstream way of thinking in some areas has becoming so stilted, yet so common.

I also wonder if it's reached an irreversible point.

I'm now having thoughts, serious thoughts, that the only fix for this is a true revolution from middle America. It is time to start kicking the can around about secession. Never thought I'd seriously be thinking that in my lifetime.

I don't recognize America any more on the east or west coasts. Not in the politics, the attitudes....and more and more in the faces and languages. How do we recapture our roots from so many people who do not share our personal roots.

The liberal party of our country has found its staying power within the minds of those that have immigrated. It long ago brainwashed the minds of the minority divisions of our populace.

We just elected a president with less prudence than we exercise for American Idol. We have a Speaker of the House that has the same mental capacity of Elizabeth Taylor, and is from a state that actually elected an Austrian bodybuilder who played Conan the Barbarian.

If you've seen the movie "Idiocracy", you know the theory (behind an otherwise forgettable movie). Liberals have dumbed down this country to the point that we'll eventually be electing porn stars and pro wrestlers to the leadership positions in our country.

There's an ill wind coming. I smell civil unrest like we have seen in, oh, about 135 years. Secession isn't such a crazy idea any more.

 

[American]

Tea Parties all over America.

 

[donsutherland1]

I'm now having thoughts, serious thoughts, that the only fix for this is a true revolution from middle America. It is time to start kicking the can around about secession.

I strongly disagree. Although there may be some stresses on account of the severe recession, e.g., recent expressions of populism, the situation is nowhere near the point of outright revolt. The nation has strong political and legal institutions in which the vast majority of Americans retains sufficient confidence so as to put the ballot box ahead of revolution.

If Republicans are to regain a chance to govern, they will need to among the following three steps:

1. Choose a candidate who can communicate effectively. The "plain speaker" argument has been used all too often to try to mask inadequate communication skills. Yet, whether in business or politics, effective communication is key to selling one's ideas or positions. Effective communication is a key attribute for successful leaders who must align support to bring the people behind their vision.

2. Choose a candidate who articulates a postive and coherent vision. The vision must show where a candidate wishes to lead the nation, how he/she intends to do so, and provide reasons to expect that he/she can deliver. Negative/contrast strategies only work when there is risk aversion. In the last election, the public was clamoring for an approach that offered prospects for relief from what the public rightly understood was evolving into the biggest crisis the nation has faced since the end of World War II. In that environment, they wanted to take risks for changes and contrast ads had little impact.

3. Choose a candidate who has a credible record. While South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford has been able to articulate a conservative message and has been sharply critical of the recently-enacted fiscal stimulus package, he faces a major defect were he to run for President in 2012: His state is faring, on average, worse than many others and its unemployment rate is the second highest in the nation. Hence, even as he argues for a conservative economic philosophy, his record does not provide credibility when it comes to results.

Of course, another option would be to wait for the Democrats to overreach, as so often happens to any governing party that retains power over an extended period of time. However, that's a passive approach and it does not assure that one will be ready to govern effectively once one regains the chance to do so. A positive vision, effective communication, and credibility provide a stronger chance to succeed when it comes to governance.

 

[WI Crippler]

Moderator's Warning:

Thread moved to appropriate forum

 

[Arch Enemy]

it goes like this:

After you found the balls to give the middle finger to the most power state ever created,

and after you found the heart to run out into the streets to pick the pieces of your 8 year old son off the ground,

and after you found the courage to resist the consequences of being branded as an enemy of the state and after finding,

and after you realize the person you just put into office and the man you just took out are both the antithesis of liberty and freedom.

and after you watch the country you grew up in burn to the grouond.


You will probably realize that giving the monster the finger was not the wisest decision. We have the mechanism of term-limits, and elections, in order to stop bull**** like this from happening.

If you don't like what is going on in Washington you will have your chance.

 

[SgtRock]

I am all for Texas Seceding from the United States. The Republic of Texas could be what the USA was and no longer is.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Tea Parties all over America.

Pointless events.

The original Boston Tea Party destroyed thousands of pounds of tea in protest of the tax on tea.

How many bankers have these latest tea parties tarred and feathered in protest of the government's transfer of wealth to the banks?

None.

 

[Arch Enemy]

I am all for Texas Seceding from the United States. The Republic of Texas could be what the USA was and no longer is.

This is arrogance at it's best.

How long do you think Texas will last under an embargo? I bet you'd be tearing down the border-fences just as quickly as they went up.

by the way.....
of the 47 Governors, 39 are Democrats.

You are gonnna have to find a way to rebel without all of your major cities.

 

[RightinNYC]

I am all for Texas Seceding from the United States. The Republic of Texas could be what the USA was and no longer is.

An economically depressed 19th Century slave state?

 

[RightinNYC]

Pointless events.

The original Boston Tea Party destroyed thousands of pounds of tea in protest of the tax on tea.

How many bankers have these latest tea parties tarred and feathered in protest of the government's transfer of wealth to the banks?

None.

YEA INCITE THAT VIOLENCE WOOOOO

 

[RightinNYC]

Secession isn't such a crazy idea any more.

No, it's still pretty ****ing crazy.

 

[celticlord]

There's an ill wind coming. I smell civil unrest like we have seen in, oh, about 135 years. Secession isn't such a crazy idea any more.

Secession isn't a crazy idea. Secession is an insane idea. Secession is an inane idea. Secession is a wrong idea.

There may come a day when the states should no longer band together to address the common problems we all share--but it is not this day.

There may come a day when we will abandon fully the Constitution and forsake the more perfect Union each generation continues to build--but it is not this day.

There may come a day when when we tear down the institutions we have erected over time to preserve and enlarge our society--but it is not this day.

The current occupant of the Oval Office is an outrageous demagogue, a creature of scant intellect, less integrity, and no moral principle whatsoever, and the Speaker of the House is even worse. They, and the rest of what passes for leadership in Washington this day, are walking proof that republican democracy--the grand theory of governance at the center of this great experiment we call the United States--is an art, not a science; they are grim reminders to us all that, occasionally, we get it wrong. In the inane, inept, illiterate, and imbecilic we have chosen to stand at the head of our government, we got it wrong.

Yet we are still Americans. This is still our country. We remain "We the People...." All that we have broken it is ours to fix. "We the People" may likely suffer for a time, as "We the People" must endure the evil and benighted creatures we have chosen for high office for their appointed terms of office, but "We the People" retain the capacity to fix all that their crass capriciousness has legislated into dysfunction. My faith is that, in time, "We the People" will exercise that capacity, and hound these political mistakes back into the obscurity that is their just portion. My faith is also, at that time, "We the People" will use the power of the ballot box, the power of free speech, and free assembly, the rights and responsibilities that we share as citizens, to do these things.

My country is still America, even when America gets it wrong. And I would not have it any other way.

 

[Dav]

Suggesting secession is just a fancy way of claiming that your state is better than everyone else's.

Trust me, it's not. No matter which one it is.

 

[Erod]

Secession isn't a crazy idea. Secession is an insane idea. Secession is an inane idea. Secession is a wrong idea.

There may come a day when the states should no longer band together to address the common problems we all share--but it is not this day.

There may come a day when we will abandon fully the Constitution and forsake the more perfect Union each generation continues to build--but it is not this day.

There may come a day when when we tear down the institutions we have erected over time to preserve and enlarge our society--but it is not this day.

The current occupant of the Oval Office is an outrageous demagogue, a creature of scant intellect, less integrity, and no moral principle whatsoever, and the Speaker of the House is even worse. They, and the rest of what passes for leadership in Washington this day, are walking proof that republican democracy--the grand theory of governance at the center of this great experiment we call the United States--is an art, not a science; they are grim reminders to us all that, occasionally, we get it wrong. In the inane, inept, illiterate, and imbecilic we have chosen to stand at the head of our government, we got it wrong.

Yet we are still Americans. This is still our country. We remain "We the People...." All that we have broken it is ours to fix. "We the People" may likely suffer for a time, as "We the People" must endure the evil and benighted creatures we have chosen for high office for their appointed terms of office, but "We the People" retain the capacity to fix all that their crass capriciousness has legislated into dysfunction. My faith is that, in time, "We the People" will exercise that capacity, and hound these political mistakes back into the obscurity that is their just portion. My faith is also, at that time, "We the People" will use the power of the ballot box, the power of free speech, and free assembly, the rights and responsibilities that we share as citizens, to do these things.

My country is still America, even when America gets it wrong. And I would not have it any other way.

Well stated and reasoned. But you're addressing people that are well stated and reasoned.

The face of this country is changing rapidly. The voting bloc of power is shifting dramatically.

We didn't just "get it wrong" I fear. We elected this numskull with our eyes wide open, and the overwhelming majority of those who pulled that lever for him would do it again and again and again.

Our populace has changed. Our underbelly is soft as a baby's butt. Our eye is not on the ball.

And future elections look to be determined by people who couldn't give you a third-grade answer to "who are Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton, etc".

Half this country seems willing to go the route Chavez is taking Venezuela. That actually sounds good to them because it punishes the evil rich people who outworked them.

Rome fell. England fell quicker. We might be on the brink already.

 

[Arch Enemy]

The face of this country is changing rapidly. The voting bloc of power is shifting dramatically.

That is what democracy is!! A shift in voting power bloc it is not a shift away from Democracy it is a play in Democracy. If you have value that you wish to be addressed by the Government then you get people behind it, and people vote accordingly.

We didn't just "get it wrong" I fear. We elected this numskull with our eyes wide open, and the overwhelming majority of those who pulled that lever for him would do it again and again and again.

Our populace has changed. Our underbelly is soft as a baby's butt. Our eye is not on the ball.

So our problem does not lie with the Government, as it lies with the soft butt, eyes-wide-open, electorate?

And future elections look to be determined by people who couldn't give you a third-grade answer to "who are Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton, etc".

They are people with ideals that are 200+ years old.

Half this country seems willing to go the route Chavez is taking Venezuela. That actually sounds good to them because it punishes the evil rich people who outworked them.

That's a stupid statement.

Rome fell. England fell quicker. We might be on the brink already.

England is still around. Infact, I'd say they are doing quite a good job. Strong empires falter, but they do not go away. Our economic dominance might be coming to an end, but that does not mean our country is failing.

You know.. unless that is where your measure of a country is... in the b.s. value we put in our economy.

 

[Ethereal]

They are people with ideals that are 200+ years old.

Isaac Newton wrote the Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica even earlier than that. I guess we should just disregard it because it's old. I mean, good ideas and sound theories are just like mayonnaise; if left to sit for too long they'll spoil.

 

[celticlord]

Well stated and reasoned. But you're addressing people that are well stated and reasoned.

The face of this country is changing rapidly. The voting bloc of power is shifting dramatically.

We didn't just "get it wrong" I fear. We elected this numskull with our eyes wide open, and the overwhelming majority of those who pulled that lever for him would do it again and again and again.

Our populace has changed. Our underbelly is soft as a baby's butt. Our eye is not on the ball.

And future elections look to be determined by people who couldn't give you a third-grade answer to "who are Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton, etc".

Half this country seems willing to go the route Chavez is taking Venezuela. That actually sounds good to them because it punishes the evil rich people who outworked them.

Rome fell. England fell quicker. We might be on the brink already.

Omar said it best:
Think, in this batter'd Caravanserai
Whose Portals are alternate Night and Day,
How Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp
Abode his destined Hour, and went his way

Is our destined Hour at an end? Perhaps. It is not given for men to know such things.

I choose to believe in the future--that our destined Hour is NOT at an end. Having made that choice, no, I am not pleased with the choices my countrymen have made of late. Yet, if our destined Hour is not an end, secession is absolutely the wrong answer; we would not turn our backs on friends or family that err and stray from the path, and neither should we turn our backs on our countrymen. We should stay, and lead them back to the path.

America elected this soulless creature, just as America elected the catty, childish, and churlish Nancy Pelosi, the artless Harry Reid, the lipless Mitch McConnell. America chose leaders who value words only for the pleasant sounds they make in their own ears, who abandon principle for pragmatism, and for whom concepts such as "right" and "wrong" are denominated in campaign dollars gained, votes won or lost. America has chosen not just horribly, but harmfully, and their leadership is already to this country's great detriment.

Still, the enduring strength of our institutions is that we can excise these demons from our government; we can change. With one single ballot, we can alter the course of this country. This mistake is most definitely fixable.

Secession to my mind is saying "we can't fix this" or "it's not worth fixing this." It seems plausible only if you are willing to forsake your countrymen, forsake your neighbor, abandon all others to their fate. I reject secession not because of what my fellow countrymen have done, or might do. I reject secession because of what I do, and who I am--and who I am is someone who does not flee a crisis, who does not leave merely because others have abandoned their better judgments to fall sway to the demagoguery that is the politic of the moment. I reject secession because I prefer to fix this; I prefer to change this.

Everything you say about this country is sad but true, every criticism of the broad swath of Americans is regrettably spot on. Everything you say is also why secession is not the answer.

 

[celticlord]

Suggesting secession is just a fancy way of claiming that your state is better than everyone else's.

Trust me, it's not. No matter which one it is.

(Unless it's Texas, of course! :rofl)

 

[Objective Voice]

I think all this talk and political rangling about secession from the Union is just plain stupid. Neither we, our parents nor our grandparents have ever gone through economic troubles like these. I mean, the Great Depression was one thing and it's troubles could be easily pinpointed and resolved by increasing production in some areas and changing some trade laws to balance global trade, but this recession is different mainly because most of the problem is in the financial sectors of the world. They aren't so easy to fix because the root cause was and the mechanics of the problem were so hard to pin down.

Besides all of the above, how are these so-called "seceeding" states suppose to help themselves? Most are either in deep financial trouble or broke! Just where are they to seceed to?

 

[Agnapostate]

There's little doubt that the libertarian elements amongst the Founding Fathers supported the right to secede, as indicated by the writings of Jefferson and Madison in the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions, but no "secession" can be anything but a re-creation of a repressive political structure if the state itself is not toppled, and horizontal frameworks of direct democratic management put in its place.

 

[MDM]

I don't believe a revolution will happen because there are too many issues to divide over - and people belong to more than one divisive category.

Conservative vs. Liberal
Rich vs. Poor
Religious vs. Non-religious
etc.

All the different differences are going on all at once providing a dynamic tension that keeps us from going to one particular extreme.

Unless you are an extremest to one of those poles, how do you pick a side?

 

[Arch Enemy]

There's little doubt that the libertarian elements amongst the Founding Fathers supported the right to secede, as indicated by the writings of Jefferson and Madison in the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions, but no "secession" can be anything but a re-creation of a repressive political structure if the state itself is not toppled, and horizontal frameworks of direct democratic management put in its place.

I agree with your post.

But this brings me to another point about how ridiculous some people are when it comes to the Founding Fathers and their ideals, as if their ideals have no need, reason, or ability to change. We cannot take the ideals and philosophies of the Founding Fathers and blindly apply them to our current state. None of them would have ever expected that a citizen of North Carolina could instantly communicate with a citizen of North Dakota.

I don't think the founding fathers would be in such a great respect for succession, and thus a revolution, if they understood the amount of chaos an internal armed conflict could permit. There is no leveled playing field, as citizens do not own tactical missiles, nor do they own aircraft or tanks.

A rebellion in the United States would kill millions of people; the amount of time the killing of millions would occur is directly represented by the amount of passion the rebels show.

 

[Arch Enemy]

Isaac Newton wrote the Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica even earlier than that. I guess we should just disregard it because it's old. I mean, good ideas and sound theories are just like mayonnaise; if left to sit for too long they'll spoil.

I never said disregard. I meant that we cannot apply the crude ideal of the day to modernity.

 

[celticlord]

I think all this talk and political rangling about secession from the Union is just plain stupid.

Secession is wrong. On this I concur.

Debating the question is never wrong. There may yet come a time when the federal government no longer deserves the support of the citizens; while I do not believe that time is now, I do not dismiss the opinions of those who do.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote so eloquently in the Declaration of Independence:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

How long a train of abuses and usurpations must be endured before one throws off the government is a matter open to debate. Similarly, if we do not debate the abuses and usurpations of government, we will not bring that train to an end before it is necessary to throw off government. Thus in all cases, when one wishes to talk of secession, the civic-minded should listen and engage with reason, to learn perhaps if indeed they are correct, but, if they are not, to address whatever errors exist in their thinking.

Secession is wrong--for now. However, talk of secession is never wrong, and it is rarely stupid. Given the abuses and usurpations of Washington over the years, it certainly is not stupid now.

Neither we, our parents nor our grandparents have ever gone through economic troubles like these. I mean, the Great Depression was one thing and it's troubles could be easily pinpointed and resolved by increasing production in some areas and changing some trade laws to balance global trade, but this recession is different mainly because most of the problem is in the financial sectors of the world. They aren't so easy to fix because the root cause was and the mechanics of the problem were so hard to pin down.

This is simply not true. The causes of the Great Depression are a topic of great debate among economists even today, some 80 years after the stock market crash of 1929.

Moreover, by every measure, the Great Depression was far worse than anything we are experiencing today. We do not have one fourth of the working population unemployed. We do not have banks failing by the hundreds daily. We do not have people's savings wholly wiped out in an eyeblink. The Great Depression stands as the greatest challenge modern society has endured, and the stresses of our current crises pale in comparison to the stresses of that era.

Further, as you rightly pointed out, this recession is chiefly the product of imbalances and excesses in the financial sectors of the world; this makes this recession less rather than more complicated compared to the Great Depression. Also, it makes the solution less rather than more complicated; untangle the financial mess, chart a course to deleverage our financial institutions, so that they may resume prudent lending and extending of credit to responsible businesses, and the greater part of the rest of the economy would almost immediately trend towards recovery.

This recession is painfully real. The loss of jobs is painfully real. The loss of wealth is painfully real. None of this is as bad as this nation has endured in generations past. We are, at this juncture, experiencing the largest economic contraction since the recession of 1980-82, and which may yet rank as the worst recession since the close of WWII. Still, we are not (yet) in another Great Depression. There is a danger we might yet sink that far, but, as of now, that is not the likely scenario.

 

[celticlord]

I never said disregard. I meant that we cannot apply the crude ideal of the day to modernity.

The Constitution is a "crude ideal"?

The Bill of Rights is a "crude ideal"?

The Declaration of Independence is a "crude ideal"?

That you would say such a thing.....explains much.