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SecDef Hegseth eliminating the Two Tier Fitness Standards for Combat Arms MOS

StillBallin75 said:
Lol this was what the ACFT was trying to fix, great ****ing job, back to the drawing board on shit someone already did the work on.
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The ACFT did no such thing. The current ACFT has two separate scoring systems, one for males and one for females.

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It will now have one scoring system for everyone.
 
jmotivator said:


It's about time. There will be no women's standard and Men's standard.

The new standards will be based entirely on ability, not sex.

Plain and simple.
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The fitness tests are not about, and never have been about ability. They are about fitness. Fitness levels for women are different than fitness levels for men, on average. It's the same reason we also have differences by age. It is a personal assessment of fitness, not "can you do this job?".
 
ColdHardTruth said:
Women are not allowed in combat anyway.

It's just another attempt by a collection of scumbags to push women and minorities out of the armed forces.
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Yes they are. Women have been allowed in combat billets since 2016.

That's why the ACFT has a Female Qualification scoring system that is lower than the men on all criteria. They said it was fair because there is some crossover between male 60 pt and Female 100 point targets, but in reality the 60pt males would likely wash out.
 
roguenuke said:
The fitness tests are not about, and never have been about ability. They are about fitness.
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HAHA!! Fitness is about ability. If your squad mate is incapacitated, you'd better have the ability to lift fit and carry him, or drag him. And I don't want a combat readiness system that says 230 lbs. Jake can't serve in a rifle squad because the women can't drag him.

And when they are all loaded with a 100 lbs. ruck and 50 lbs. of gear, I don't want their ingress and egress speed having to lower to the ability of a woman for didn't even place on the Male scoring chart. Hell, I wouldn't want them carrying a male whow scored Male-60s on the ACFT for that matter.

roguenuke said:
Fitness levels for women are different than fitness levels for men, on average. It's the same reason we also have differences by age. It is a personal assessment of fitness, not "can you do this job?".
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The military the age differences sort themselves out and are lowered based not just on lower ability for older people, but because you don't find any 50 year old corporals in the army who are assigned the grunt work.

A 40 year old Colonel assigned to a combat mission won't be expected to do most of the same grunt work and heavy lifting and his men. And even then, a Combat deployed 60 year old male is expected to be more fit than a female in her 20s.
 
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jmotivator said:
HAHA!! Fitness is about ability. If your squad mate is incapacities, you'd better have the ability to lift fit and carry him, or drag him. And I don't want a combat readiness system that says 230 lbs. Jake can't serve in a rifle squad because the women can't drag him.

And when they are all loaded with a 100 lbs. ruck and 50 lbs. of gear, I don't want their ingress and egress speed having to lower to the ability of a woman for didn't even place on the Male scoring chart. Hell, I wouldn't want them carrying a male whow scored Male-60s on the ACFT for that matter.



The military the age differences sort themselves out and are lowered based not just on lower ability for older people, but because you don't find any 50 year old corporals in the army who are assigned the grunt work.

A 40 year old Colonel assigned to a combat mission won't be expected to do most of the same grunt work and heavy lifting and his men. And even then, a Combat deployed 60 year old male is expected to be more fit than a female in her 20s.
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Maybe Trump should stop threatening to take over, annex, bomb the shit out of, etc half the god damned world and then there would be no need to worry about who can drag who in combat.

Thought he was supposed to be ushering in peace globally?

How’s those cease fires he was going to have signed his first day in office going?
 
BirdinHand said:
Maybe Trump should stop threatening to take over, annex, bomb the shit out of, etc half the god damned world and then there would be no need to worry about who can drag who in combat.
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Let, let's go jump into a war with Russia instead. :rolleyes:

BirdinHand said:
Thought he was supposed to be ushering in peace globally?
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What wars has he started?

BirdinHand said:
How’s those cease fires he was going to have signed his first day in office going?
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He assumed Zelenskyy wasn't an idiot, I suppose? Don't worry, France and UK are going to send troops. They'll prove Trump was wrong to not want to get involved! :rolleyes:
 
jmotivator said:
HAHA!! Fitness is about ability. If your squad mate is incapacitated, you'd better have the ability to lift fit and carry him, or drag him. And I don't want a combat readiness system that says 230 lbs. Jake can't serve in a rifle squad because the women can't drag him.

And when they are all loaded with a 100 lbs. ruck and 50 lbs. of gear, I don't want their ingress and egress speed having to lower to the ability of a woman for didn't even place on the Male scoring chart. Hell, I wouldn't want them carrying a male whow scored Male-60s on the ACFT for that matter.



The military the age differences sort themselves out and are lowered based not just on lower ability for older people, but because you don't find any 50 year old corporals in the army who are assigned the grunt work.

A 40 year old Colonel assigned to a combat mission won't be expected to do most of the same grunt work and heavy lifting and his men. And even then, a Combat deployed 60 year old male is expected to be more fit than a female in her 20s.
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Many men cannot drag of lift 230 lb Jake either.

What we should be doing is looking at making combat easier for all or even better, don't get into combat in the first place.
 
roguenuke said:
Many men cannot drag of lift 230 lb Jake either.
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Those men who don't score top marks in the ACFT don't find themselves in an unmounted rifle squad on combat patrol, either.

roguenuke said:
What we should be doing is looking at making combat easier for all or even better,
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Yeah, we should probably send chocolates to the trenches across the way with a letter inviting them to a game of flag football... but only if they promise not to send their best players.

roguenuke said:
don't get into combat in the first place.
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"Sergeant! Why is your rifle squad behind? And why are they not properly provisio?!"

"Well sir, we thought about it and we thought it would be smarter not to prepare for combat."

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Kind of funny that you would say that when Trump is trying to end two wars and the Democrats and their degenerate followers are screaming to get more involved.
 
jmotivator said:
Oh? Can you tell me the qualifications for Sec. Def? 🤔
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I think the only qualification some recognize is experience in the bureaucracy.

Officer, combat deployment and ivy league educated, if he had a "D" next to his name liberals would think he was the 2nd coming.
 
jmotivator said:
Those men who don't score top marks in the ACFT don't find themselves in an unmounted rifle squad on combat patrol, either.



Yeah, we should probably send chocolates to the trenches across the way with a letter inviting them to a game of flag football... but only if they promise not to send their best players.



"Sergeant! Why is your rifle squad behind? And why are they not properly provisio?!"

"Well sir, we thought about it and we thought it would be smarter not to prepare for combat."

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Kind of funny that you would say that when Trump is trying to end two wars and the Democrats and their degenerate followers are screaming to get more involved.
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No. We should probably work to make things lighter and more able to still provide protection and everything that is needed. Or use more remote ability.

Trump isn't trying to end shit except in giving both Putin and Israel everything they want, and then wanting to take Greenland. He's not doing jack to actually stop any wars in any sort of just way.
 
roguenuke said:
No. We should probably work to make things lighter and more able to still provide protection and everything that is needed. Or use more remote ability.
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That's not generally how things work. When the expectation is to carry 150lbs, making any part of the kit lighter just means to carry more ammunition. Rifle lighter? More ammo. Ammo lighter? More ammo. And so on.

Because more ammo is a distinct advantage in combat.

roguenuke said:
Trump isn't trying to end shit except in giving both Putin and Israel everything they want, and then wanting to take Greenland. He's not doing jack to actually stop any wars in any sort of just way.
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There is either total defeat or there is a negotiated peace. The only way either side gets everything they want is through total defeat of their enemy.

A negotiated piece will always seem like you are giving the other side "everything they want", but then to do that with Ukraine you'd have to assume that all Putin really wanted was Donbas and Crimea, and you only get those back with a fight to the finish. And if that is the conclusion you prefer then you lose your pacifist card.
 
Mogadishu mile. 14 hours of continuous combat. No food, no water.

 
Very
Rich2018 said:
It did not take 14 hours to run the so called Mogadishu Mile

You're thinking of the entire Battle of Mogadishu.
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Very good Rich. The soldiers ran the Mogadishu mile AFTER 14 hours of continuous combat.
 
🤣

It is amazing how dedicated you guys are to culture wars of the last 3 decades, no matter the cost.

The military is already having a real hard time filling those billets.
 
jmotivator said:
It already does. The operable words there are "Combat Arms MOS". Basically infantry and generally non-Coms who will be serving in combat operations have to pass the Combat Arms requirements, while Officers will have different requirements.
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Really?

I entered the U.S. Army as an enlisted man, completing One Station Unit Training (OSUT) as a Cavalry Scout. I was recommended for both OCS and Delta Force. I opted for, and successfully completed OCS, then the Armor Officer Basic Course, followed by Airborne school. After a couple of years I was promoted to Captain and completed the Infantry Officers Advance Course.

In every case I was still required to take and pass the APFT, which at that time consisted of the Run Dodge & Jump, Push-ups, Sit-ups, Horizontal Ladder, and 1-mile run. Everyone had to do it, but it was adjusted for age and sex, i.e. the older the service member, or females, the lower the passing requirements. Toward the end of my service the APFT was reduced from 5 to 3 events, push-ups, sit-ups, and 2-mile run.

jmotivator said:
Officers tend to me on an Up-or-Out track where their MOSs will gradually move them away from physical requirements, and non-coms tend to retire or move to billets that aren't Combat Arms when they physically can't meet requirements.
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As I recall, the Colonels were right there with us doing the Fitness tests. Generals, not so much.

jmotivator said:
So the system pretty much already doesn't screen for age, but rather the decline that comes with age.
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I suppose that's one way to look at it.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Really?

I entered the U.S. Army as an enlisted man, completing One Station Unit Training (OSUT) as a Cavalry Scout. I was recommended for both OCS and Delta Force. I opted for, and successfully completed OCS, then the Armor Officer Basic Course, followed by Airborne school. After a couple of years I was promoted to Captain and completed the Infantry Officers Advance Course.

In every case I was still required to take and pass the APFT, which at that time consisted of the Run Dodge & Jump, Push-ups, Sit-ups, Horizontal Ladder, and 1-mile run. Everyone had to do it, but it was adjusted for age and sex, i.e. the older the service member, or females, the lower the passing requirements. Toward the end of my service the APFT was reduced from 5 to 3 events, push-ups, sit-ups, and 2-mile run.
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The APFT and the ACFT are different. Everyone in the Army has to pass the APFT but only combat roles have to pass the ACFT.

But you are right. I was focusing on the ACFT, not the APFT. If you are in a position that only requires the APFT at the enlisted level, like an IT command, then there is no differences between enlisted and officer, at which point they do have diminishing requirements by age.

But this new order by the SecDef is only eliminating lower female standard in the ACFT (and CFT for USMC) not the APFT. If he eliminated the two tiered APFT standards then most women would have to drop out of the military.

Captain Adverse said:
As I recall, the Colonels were right there with us doing the Fitness tests. Generals, not so much.
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Yeah, you are right. A colonel in a combat arms brigade will test under the ACFT, not the APFT.
 
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If these efforts are to make our military more lethal, it gets a thumbs up from me.
 
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