Schools arrange secret abortions

[Harry Guerrilla]

Nah. In my line of work, I only tell parents things that either the teen permits me to, or things that indicate serious harm to themselves or others.

I'm pretty sure you practice this in the most professional/responsible manner.

I worry that some will want to be the "cool" councilor and not tell the more important things, that a parent needs to know.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Btw... NO teen tells their parents everything. How much a teen will reveal can be significantly influenced by how the parent has created and framed their relationship, however it is not the only factor.

 

[Arcana XV]

I disagree. It's not unusual at all for kids to want to please their parents and when they mess up they just want a way out. Don't blame the parents. Blame the damn schools for giving them the out instead of facing up to their mistakes. What about the boy? He just gets a free pass too? This whole thing should be against the law and worthy of jail time. These are minors and an abortion is a medical procedure that should require parental permission. Not just that, it shouldn't be the schools damn business at all, but between parents and daughter.
This country's going to hell in a hand basket.

When I had a kid I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I raised her to trust me and to never be afraid of disappointing me. I've also raised her to face up to her mistakes and to never blame anyone else when she ****s up. I follow my own advice. I'm not going to blame some school counselor for my own failure at being the rock she should be leaning on whenever something goes really wrong.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I'm pretty sure you practice this in the most professional/responsible manner.

I worry that some will want to be the "cool" councilor and not tell the more important things, that a parent needs to know.

Yes, I do pratice in a professional/responsible/ethical manner. However, what a parent needs to know is situational and not always cut and dry.

For example, if I have a client that has indicated serious suicidality, I tell their parents, whether they consent or not. If they tell me that they are self-injuring, I do not... though I usually encourage them to do so themselves. However, if they do not want their parents to know, I say nothing. I treat them for the disorder and monitor. If the severity rises above a certain level, I will "encourage" them very strongly.

The same goes for many situations, teen sexual activity, substance use, pregnancy, legal issues. Things are situational and a lot of factors go into the determination. Legally/ethically, I am only obligated to report abuse or sucidality/homocidality with intent.

 

[Arcana XV]

Has your daughter ever lied to you because she was afraid to disappoint you or that you would get angry with her?

She's obviously done things that have made me furious, but she's actually never lied about doing them. I honestly can't think of any time she may have lied out of fear or concern of disappointing me.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Yes, I do pratice in a professional/responsible/ethical manner. However, what a parent needs to know is situational and not always cut and dry.

For example, if I have a client that has indicated serious suicidality, I tell their parents, whether they consent or not. If they tell me that they are self-injuring, I do not... though I usually encourage them to do so themselves. However, if they do not want their parents to know, I say nothing. I treat them for the disorder and monitor. If the severity rises above a certain level, I will "encourage" them very strongly.

The same goes for many situations, teen sexual activity, substance use, pregnancy, legal issues. Things are situational and a lot of factors go into the determination. Legally/ethically, I am only obligated to report abuse or sucidality/homocidality with intent.

I can understand some secretiveness involved with those things but I'm very leery with school counselors doing such a thing.

Obviously, the guardian knew something was wrong and had the good sense to take the child to the greatest counselor on earth. :2razz:
So that doesn't bother me.

What does is that a child seeks one out for reasons not fully explained and then has medical procedures done in secret, while continuing the potentially destructive lifestyle.

 

[MaggieD]

Should a parent know everything that goes on between a counselor and the child? Should confidentiality/privacy not apply at all? If there is some line, where is it?

Driving them to doctor appointments and counselling them on abortion without informing parents crosses that line.

In my state, if I have a client who tells me that they are pregnant and is going to have an abortion, I am not obligated to reveal this information to her parents, breaching confidentiality. It would be considered unethical for me to reveal this information without the client's permission.

Right. And I would agree. But if you further enabled her by driving her to the clinic, I'd go after your license.

Nah. In my line of work, I only tell parents things that either the teen permits me to, or things that indicate serious harm to themselves or others.

That makes sense also.

I call MAJOR bull**** on your first bolded statement.

As for the second bolded statement, whose job is it to decide that a parent is a miserable failure? A school counselor or social worker is generally the first person to judge that.

I hedged it -- because there are lousy parents. There are some few cases where the parents are ****ed up themselves. But that is not the job for a freakin' school counselor to decide. Get DCFS involved. A counsellor does not have the right to counsel a 16-year-old to get an abortion -- much less drive her to her appointments. Wrong-wrong-wrong.

When I had a kid I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I raised her to trust me and to never be afraid of disappointing me. I've also raised her to face up to her mistakes and to never blame anyone else when she ****s up. I follow my own advice. I'm not going to blame some school counselor for my own failure at being the rock she should be leaning on whenever something goes really wrong.

If that happened to your child, if she leaned on a counselor instead of on you, it would be a source of profound disappointment. It would be to me, too. But still I'd wring that counseler's neck.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I can understand some secretiveness involved with those things but I'm very leery with school counselors doing such a thing.

Depends on the credentials of the school counselor. A guidence counselor generally has a BA in Education or some field that they taught... as most guidence counselors used to be teachers (at least around here). They have some training, but not much. I would not trust these folks to deal with this issue, effectively. They just don't have the background

School psychologists or student assistance counselors, however, have degrees in psychology and have adequate training to deal with these issues, so I am a little more comfortable with them managing some of these issues.

Obviously, the guardian knew something was wrong and had the good sense to take the child to the greatest counselor on earth. :2razz:
So that doesn't bother me.

I KNOW you meant to say in the known and unknown universe, so I'll let the "slight" slide. :2razz:

What does is that a child seeks one out for reasons not fully explained and then has medical procedures done in secret, while continuing the potentially destructive lifestyle.

Can you give an example of what you mean?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Right. And I would agree. But if you further enabled her by driving her to the clinic, I'd go after your license.

I'm not sure that you could do anything about it, in my state. However, for the record, I would consider it completely unethical to do something like that and am appalled that anyone would drive their patient to get an abortion.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Depends on the credentials of the school counselor. A guidence counselor generally has a BA in Education or some field that they taught... as most guidence counselors used to be teachers (at least around here). They have some training, but not much. I would not trust these folks to deal with this issue, effectively. They just don't have the background

School psychologists or student assistance counselors, however, have degrees in psychology and have adequate training to deal with these issues, so I am a little more comfortable with them managing some of these issues.

Just from what I remember from school, my elementary school counselor was awesome, my highschool counselor let me get away with murder (exaggeration but you know what I mean).

I KNOW you meant to say in the known and unknown universe, so I'll let the "slight" slide. :2razz:

My mistake. :bag:

Can you give an example of what you mean?

Like with the abortion situation.
The child confides that she is pregnant and wants to receive the abortion without parent consent.
Now some important things that the parent should know, like how the child got pregnant, possibly after school when they were supposed to be at XYZ instead of boyfriends house.

Things of that nature where a parent needs to step in with, behavior control or further counseling issues, related to broad sexual promiscuity.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Just from what I remember from school, my elementary school counselor was awesome, my highschool counselor let me get away with murder (exaggeration but you know what I mean).

I never met my elementary school counselor. My junior high school counselor was awful, and my high school counselor was completely clueless. There are SOME guidance counselors that I deal with that are really excellent, but they are the exception, no the rule.

My mistake. :bag:

Don't let it happen again.

Like with the abortion situation.
The child confides that she is pregnant and wants to receive the abortion without parent consent.
Now some important things that the parent should know, like how the child got pregnant, possibly after school when they were supposed to be at XYZ instead of boyfriends house.

Things of that nature where a parent needs to step in with, behavior control or further counseling issues, related to broad sexual promiscuity.

I see no reason why a counselor would need to notify a parent that they child was not where they told the parent that they were. The kid lied. Kids lie. The lie is not something life-threatening, so the counselor has no obligation to say anything. Further, by revealing minor stuff like lying, the kid will no longer tell the counselor these things, and if they are REALLY in trouble, no one will know. You have to be very selective when you pull the "we have to tell your parents" card. Sexual promiscuity is a matter of degree. Teen tells me that they started having sex, I go over all the sexual education issues with them (I used to teach it), but unless it is having a major affect on them or causing them major distress, this is not something that I share with parents.

 

[BDBoop]

I don't know the stats, but there's a fair number of kids out there living crisis situations with completely ****ed-up parents. Telling said parents just gets them more of the craziness.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I don't know the stats, but there's a fair number of kids out there living crisis situations with completely ****ed-up parents. Telling said parents just gets them more of the craziness.

Sometimes this is true, however, from what I've seen, the parental response is usually not as bad as the kid thinks it will be. Usually.

 

[Bodi]

Has your daughter ever lied to you because she was afraid to disappoint you or that you would get angry with her?

That's the whole point, she doesn't know. Nobody knows... we can only hope that they are being truthful. Probably almost every time they are, but of course there are times that they aren't.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Don't let it happen again.

:blah:

I see no reason why a counselor would need to notify a parent that they child was not where they told the parent that they were. The kid lied. Kids lie. The lie is not something life-threatening, so the counselor has no obligation to say anything. Further, by revealing minor stuff like lying, the kid will no longer tell the counselor these things, and if they are REALLY in trouble, no one will know. You have to be very selective when you pull the "we have to tell your parents" card. Sexual promiscuity is a matter of degree. Teen tells me that they started having sex, I go over all the sexual education issues with them (I used to teach it), but unless it is having a major affect on them or causing them major distress, this is not something that I share with parents.

But don't you agree that some instances of sexual promiscuity are symptoms of other mental issues?
If it is entirely unknown to the parent, it allows the situation to continue.

 

[BDBoop]

Sometimes this is true, however, from what I've seen, the parental response is usually not as bad as the kid thinks it will be. Usually.

How do you find out, without throwing the child to the wolves? I remember pleading not to be sent back home, when I ran away. Worst beating of my life, that night.

 

[BDBoop]

:blah:




But don't you agree that some instances of sexual promiscuity are symptoms of other mental issues?
If it is entirely unknown to the parent, it allows the situation to continue.

Promiscuity is a symptom of having been molested, but most (I think) teens just have sex because it's time, no promiscuity involved.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

But don't you agree that some instances of sexual promiscuity are symptoms of other mental issues?
If it is entirely unknown to the parent, it allows the situation to continue.

Absolutely, but the parent can't necessarily do anything about it if they DO know. If the sexual promiscuity is a symptom of a mental issue, that's MY job to treat. If the parent can be helpful in this treatment, I will encourage the teen to allow me to include them, but including the parent is not always helpful.

 

[Arcana XV]

That's the whole point, she doesn't know. Nobody knows... we can only hope that they are being truthful. Probably almost every time they are, but of course there are times that they aren't.

But it's not about lies. Lies don't really bother me all that much. Everybody lies. I don't expect nor want to be the receptacle of all her secrets. Like I said before...creepy. All I'm saying is that some kids just can't talk to their parents or are terrified to and that is 99% of the time the parents' own fault.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Promiscuity is a symptom of having been molested, but most (I think) teens just have sex because it's time, no promiscuity involved.

Some do so for social acceptance reasons related to self esteem or something similar.

I think giving a blank check to allowing this can be nothing but harmful.

 

[Geo Patric]

Geo... you are talking about biological maturity. There is a difference between that and brain development. From a brain development standpoint, a typical 16 year-old's brain is still governed by impulsivity, decision-making based more on emotionality and the limbic system rather than rationality, and the focusing of stimulating the pleasure center above other things. When one reaches biological maturity is not relevent to that.

yes, captain, i understand that. They are not children, though. They undergo a substantial brain connectivity growth between the age of 18 and 21, development that pertains specifically to 'judgement'. even so, the difference between an 18 year old brain and a 15 year old brain is not great, and yet we are willing to put "adulthood" on 18 year olds as though that were somehow a magic age.

that, though, is not the point i am trying to make. again, i am not advocating turning teenagers out. The point is we tend to want to treat them as intellectually mature and sexually immature when that is exactly the opposite of the truth. we begin preparing them for the rigors of college in middleschool and insist that they are NOT sexual creatures for years after their own biology confirms to them quite the opposite.

why does it surprise us that they resist taking on the intellectual role of adults while demanding sexual autonomy?

geo.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

How do you find out, without throwing the child to the wolves? I remember pleading not to be sent back home, when I ran away. Worst beating of my life, that night.

Hard to know. If I know the teen and the family well, I can usually make a solid and accurate judgment call. If I don't, I always try to err on the side of safety of the teen.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Absolutely, but the parent can't necessarily do anything about it if they DO know. If the sexual promiscuity is a symptom of a mental issue, that's MY job to treat. If the parent can be helpful in this treatment, I will encourage the teen to allow me to include them, but including the parent is not always helpful.

But from the school counselors stand point, you aren't in the picture, that is typically what the parent does.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Promiscuity is a symptom of having been molested, but most (I think) teens just have sex because it's time, no promiscuity involved.

Promiscuity is not always a symptom of molestation. Molestation can be manifested, sexually, in a number of ways. Sexual activity is often just that, however, when we are talking about some significant promiscuity, something is probably going on.

 

[BDBoop]

Some do so for social acceptance reasons related to self esteem or something similar.

I think giving a blank check to allowing this can be nothing but harmful.

Define "blank check". I'm polar opposites of how I thought sexuality should be handled when I was in my teens. (Thanks, Assembly of God!) Now, I'm more of the school where kids are informed, with a "come talk to me when it's time so we can get you properly equipped for the next step."