School Voucher Debate Thread (1 Viewer)

[AmericanSpartan]

1. I'm aware of the shortcomings of American public schools, but these shortcomings are not because of the fact that we are talking about public schools. Looking at other public education systems, such as the Finnish education system, they are evidence of the potential of public education systems. Correlation=/=causation.

So you say Correlation=/=causation yes you do that..

Yes potential, then again they have a very small population.

You are aware of the failure, not short comings but failures yet you still want to repeat the same actions.

You do not that is insane, right?

You want to play this game? Play it with your money and your kids, do not force others to.

You want to send your kid to public school with your voucher? Fine, no one is stopping you.

2. Not sure what you mean, because most teacher unions either support or would at least not be vehemently opposed to what I listed.

Why deal with them to begin with?

2.5. The "give parent's control over their children's education" argument is pretty bizarre, especially considering that firstly, parents have the ability to teach their children whatever they want outside of school (they are the ones raising them after all), and secondly, it's the child's education, not the parent's, and children should be able to think independently from their parents.

In a area where both parents (if they have both) have to work more and more just to stay afloat most do not have the time.

We should not have to spend 8 hours correcting what our tax dollars are meant to be doing.

You are right they are raising them, why not allow them to select the right education.

Would any 4th grader want to pick any school rather then play COD or GTA all day?

Once they turn 18 they can pick what ever they want.

3. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Where you not accusing me of not wanting schools to teach about Islam..

 

[LZRD WZRD]

I'm for them, because public schooling is a joke. Privatize the industry and let people choose where they want to go. This creates competition and does away with the huge government educational bureaucracy. People have said they're going to "fix" public education for decades. And what's happened? It hasn't been fixed. Throwing money at schools has not improved a damn thing (http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa746.pdf). It's time we make the change

 

[SocialDemocrat]

So you say Correlation=/=causation yes you do that..

Yes potential, then again they have a very small population.

And that has what to do with anything?

You are aware of the failure, not short comings but failures yet you still want to repeat the same actions.

You do not that is insane, right?

You want to play this game? Play it with your money and your kids, do not force others to.

You want to send your kid to public school with your voucher? Fine, no one is stopping you.

As I've already stated and specifically listed, I support many reforms to the public education system. That's not "repeating the same actions."

Why deal with them to begin with?

Because everyone has the right to collectively bargain, but that's beside the point.

In a area where both parents (if they have both) have to work more and more just to stay afloat most do not have the time.

We should not have to spend 8 hours correcting what our tax dollars are meant to be doing.

You are right they are raising them, why not allow them to select the right education.

It's the education system's job to educate children from a factual and unbiased perspective. It's not their job to instill values than their parents value. That's the parent's job, and it's part of raising a child.

Would any 4th grader want to pick any school rather then play COD or GTA all day?

Once they turn 18 they can pick what ever they want.

Where did I say that children should be able to choose what school they want to go to?

Where you not accusing me of not wanting schools to teach about Islam..

No, I'll repost what I said and explain what I meant:

3. You'd have an argument if public schools taught a certain religion. Religion does not belong in the education system. If a student wants to learn about a certain religion, let them do it in an after school club or outside of school. Don't force children to be taught a certain religion as if it is fact just because their parents want them to believe that.

You claimed that the fact that I want to ban private schools means I am trying to prevent children from being taught religious values I do not approve of. Public schools aren't teaching my religious beliefs, so I am arguing for my religious opinions being taught.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

I'm for them, because public schooling is a joke. Privatize the industry and let people choose where they want to go. This creates competition and does away with the huge government educational bureaucracy. People have said they're going to "fix" public education for decades. And what's happened? It hasn't been fixed. Throwing money at schools has not improved a damn thing (http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa746.pdf). It's time we make the change

Careful, you are thinking.

 

[LZRD WZRD]

You claimed that the fact that I want to ban private schools means I am trying to prevent children from being taught religious values I do not approve of. Public schools aren't teaching my religious beliefs, so I am arguing for my religious opinions being taught.

You want to ban private schools??? Why on earth would you do that?

 

[SocialDemocrat]

You want to ban private schools??? Why on earth would you do that?

See my earlier post:

School vouchers drain both money and active families that school districts need from existing schools and allow public schools to continue to suffer. If there's a problem with public education (and there are many problems with public education), you should focus on fixing those problems, not allowing the system to further suffer.

Moreover, all private schools should be prohibited as well, because most of the time, they are either allowing the rich to segregate themselves from everyone else and buy themselves a better education and/or indoctrinating children with religious teachings.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

And that has what to do with anything?

Just because it can work there, does not mean it will work here or any where else.

As I've already stated and specifically listed, I support many reforms to the public education system. That's not "repeating the same actions."

And how will they "fix" this system?

At what point do we let a dying system die and replace it?

Because everyone has the right to collectively bargain, but that's beside the point.

No they do not have the right to collectively bargin.

You do not have the right to hold the pubic who you work for and their interest hostage. You have job security you lose your bargaining rights and ability to.

Should the military be allow to collectively bargin and strike if they do not get their way?

You are not entitled to a job, period.

I

t's the education system's job to educate children from a factual and unbiased perspective. It's not their job to instill values than their parents value. That's the parent's job, and it's part of raising a child.

Oh, trust me we will..

So would you teach civics? by default that would have some values many on the left would and surely hate.

Where did I say that children should be able to choose what school they want to go to?

it's the child's education, not the parent's, and children should be able to think independently from their parents.

So what dd you mean with the statement above?

No, I'll repost what I said and explain what I meant:

You claimed that the fact that I want to ban private schools means I am trying to prevent children from being taught religious values I do not approve of. Public schools aren't teaching my religious beliefs, so I am arguing for my religious opinions being taught.

Good to know..

 

[LZRD WZRD]

See my earlier post:

Oh so your argument is "since not everyone can have a better education, NOBODY CAN!!!"

Wow, such an enlightened and mature viewpoint. :roll:

And that's BS about religious indoctrination. There are plenty of secular private schools. So you're going to ban all private schools for something some of them do (which as a non-governmental entity they have the right to teach)? Don't be ridiculous.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

See my earlier post:

If you can not compete, that is not our problem, you will not keep kids in failed schools just to insecure a failed system contuines to exist, that is wrong, immoral, wasteful, and border line child abuse.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Oh so you're argument is "since not everyone can have a better education, NOBODY CAN!!!"

Wow, such an enlightened and mature viewpoint. :roll:

And that's BS about religious indoctrination. There are plenty of secular private schools. So you're going to ban all private schools for something some of them do (which as a non-governmental entity they have the right to teach)? Don't be ridiculous.

Ever notice they never want to do fill in the blank but when they do they almost always walk it back?

 

[LZRD WZRD]

What really gets me SD is you admit that private schools are better education, yet you want them banned. You complain that they are only available to the rich. But yet a voucher system would make them available to everyone. Are you sure it's the private schoolers who are indoctrinated?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

What really gets me SD is you admit that private schools are better education, yet you want them banned. You complain that they are only available to the rich. But yet a voucher system would make them available to everyone. Are you sure it's the private schoolers who are indoctrinated?

Dude Highest Five!

Remember those that cant not compete will try and prevent those that can from doing so.

Also it really does shoot down the idea that leftist are "compassionate". Keeping kids in a failed system, denying choice to parents...

 

[SocialDemocrat]

Just because it can work there, does not mean it will work here or any where else.

This is a meaningless statement if not backed up with evidence.

And how will they "fix" this system?

At what point do we let a dying system die and replace it?

By giving teachers power over what they teach, ending standardized tests, and establishing a more secure system of funding for all public schools, so that schools in poor areas aren't neglected.

No they do not have the right to collectively bargin.

You do not have the right to hold the pubic who you work for and their interest hostage. You have job security you lose your bargaining rights and ability to.

Should the military be allow to collectively bargin and strike if they do not get their way?

You are not entitled to a job, period.

If you want to talk about collective bargaining, create another thread, but as I previously stated, this is off-topic.

I

Oh, trust me we will..

So would you teach civics? by default that would have some values many on the left would and surely hate.

lol

So what dd you mean with the statement above?

Educational curriculums should teach from an unbiased perspective that presents facts and allows students to come to their own conclusions based on facts, not teach opinions. "Giving parents control over their children's education," as you like to call it, means that they are going to want teachers to teach in a way that is favorable to their beliefs, i.e. teaching with bias.

Good to know..

Oh so your argument is "since not everyone can have a better education, NOBODY CAN!!!"

Wow, such an enlightened and mature viewpoint. :roll:

No, I'm of the opinion that everyone should have a quality education, and that the quality of that education should not depend on one's income.

And that's BS about religious indoctrination. There are plenty of secular private schools. So you're going to ban all private schools for something some of them do (which as a non-governmental entity they have the right to teach)? Don't be ridiculous.

I favor banning religious private schools, but the issue of segregation by class, which I brought up in my earlier post, is an issue in every private school that charges tuition, regardless of religious affiliation.

If you can not compete, that is not our problem, you will not keep kids in failed schools just to insecure a failed system contuines to exist, that is wrong, immoral, wasteful, and border line child abuse.

<implying I want to keep the public education the way it is

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself.

 

[Linc]

When people force kids into failed schools to protect their income stream, I have a problem, and if you do not I think that says more about you then I ever could...

I need to shut up?

No--you told me to shut up in the post I quoted--I see yer new at this--and where does your anti-public school moronic nonsense come from

 

[SocialDemocrat]

What really gets me SD is you admit that private schools are better education, yet you want them banned. You complain that they are only available to the rich. But yet a voucher system would make them available to everyone. Are you sure it's the private schoolers who are indoctrinated?

Apologies for not being clear enough. Allow me to reiterate my point:

The rich should be able to buy what they perceive to be better education

 

[Linc]

Oh so your argument is "since not everyone can have a better education, NOBODY CAN!!!"

Wow, such an enlightened and mature viewpoint. :roll:

And that's BS about religious indoctrination. There are plenty of secular private schools. So you're going to ban all private schools for something some of them do (which as a non-governmental entity they have the right to teach)? Don't be ridiculous.

Did you two come from the same far rightist site? Since you want to end public schools tomorrow, what is your plan for the Nation's schools? Ever seen a public high school with 4,000 students perform at the highest levels ?

 

[LZRD WZRD]

No, I'm of the opinion that everyone should have a quality education, and that the quality of that education should not depend on one's income.


I favor banning religious private schools, but the issue of segregation by class, which I brought up in my earlier post, is an issue in every private school that charges tuition, regardless of religious affiliation.
.

Once again, you're saying that people shouldn't be able to have a better education. That's insane, stupefying, and malicious.

And once again, a voucher system solves this money problem. That's the entire point of the thread!

You just keep repeating the same faulty arguments and expect us to take you seriously.

 

[Linc]

Just because it can work there, does not mean it will work here or any where else.




And how will they "fix" this system?

At what point do we let a dying system die and replace it?





No they do not have the right to collectively bargin.

You do not have the right to hold the pubic who you work for and their interest hostage. You have job security you lose your bargaining rights and ability to.

Should the military be allow to collectively bargin and strike if they do not get their way?
You are not entitled to a job, period.
Oh, trust me we will..
So would you teach civics? by default that would have some values many on the left would and surely hate.
So what dd you mean with the statement above?
Good to know..

Are you a fan of the scab Gov. Walker?
Why do you oppose collective bargaining?
Oh yeah--charter schools for profit pay teachers half as much as public schools and get caught cheating regularly on standardized testing .

 

[AmericanSpartan]

This is a meaningless statement if not backed up with evidence.

if it could what has it not already if funding is the issue?

More over why not switch to a superior system.

By giving teachers power over what they teach, ending standardized tests, and establishing a more secure system of funding for all public schools, so that schools in poor areas aren't neglected.

Or we could give them vouchers and all of those things to happen really fast instead of waiting years on end for nothing.

Let me guess raising taxes?

If you want to talk about collective bargaining, create another thread, but as I previously stated, this is off-topic.

Nope, answer now Should the military be allow to collectively bargin and strike if they do not get their way?

Do public employees get to hold the public hostage?

lol

So no answer just laughter..

Educational curriculums should teach from an unbiased perspective that presents facts and allows students to come to their own conclusions based on facts, not teach opinions. "Giving parents control over their children's education," as you like to call it, means that they are going to want teachers to teach in a way that is favorable to their beliefs, i.e. teaching with bias.

Hey if your beliefs are better why not compete against other, lesser beliefs?

Is not wanting to send kids to failed and dangerous school "bias"?

No, I'm of the opinion that everyone should have a quality education, and that the quality of that education should not depend on one's income.

YET YOU OPPOSE A MEANS TO GIVE THEM A QUALITY EDUCATION, THE FACT YOU CAN NOT SEE THIS IS REALLY SAD, AND THE FACT THAT OTHERS HAVE TO SUFFER FOR IT IS EVEN SADDER.

I favor banning religious private schools, but the issue of segregation by class, which I brought up in my earlier post, is an issue in every private school that charges tuition, regardless of religious affiliation.

That is not a issue if we had vouchers, it would allow the poor to get a leg up, but "some people" refuse to allow it.

<implying I want to keep the public education the way it is

I don't know how many times I can repeat myself.

You are preventing a system that would increase options and quality to people who need it most, yet you oppose..

 

[LZRD WZRD]

Did you two come from the same far rightist site? Since you want to end public schools tomorrow, what is your plan for the Nation's schools?

Nice strawman.

Ever seen a public high school with 4,000 students perform at the highest levels ?

No....that's the point here. The public education system is a wreck. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

 

[Linc]

Once again, you're saying that people shouldn't be able to have a better education. That's insane, stupefying, and malicious.

And once again, a voucher system solves this money problem. That's the entire point of the thread!

You just keep repeating the same faulty arguments and expect us to take you seriously.

You have no proof that charter schools for profit are better than public schools. We do know they are politically connected through donations to the GOP .

 

[Linc]

Nice strawman.



No....that's the point here. The public education system is a wreck. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

You and the OP want to end public schools. I submit you don't know what yer talking about concerning said topic. Just repeating GOP talking points from wherever you came from. Blanket statements about something being a wreck are moronic nonsense .

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Once again, you're saying that people shouldn't be able to have a better education. That's insane, stupefying, and malicious.

And once again, a voucher system solves this money problem. That's the entire point of the thread!

You just keep repeating the same faulty arguments and expect us to take you seriously.

Thank God I thought I was the only one....Really does drive home the definition of insanity.

Are you a fan of the scab Gov. Walker?
Why do you oppose collective bargaining?
Oh yeah--charter schools for profit pay teachers half as much as public schools and get caught cheating regularly on standardized testing .

Scab? I think you mean to say balancer of budgets.

A strikebreaker (sometimes derogatorily called a scab, blackleg, or knobstick) is a person who works despite an ongoing strike. Strikebreakers are usually individuals who are not employed by the company prior to the trade union dispute, but rather hired after or during the strike to keep the organization running. If you are going to insult a person use the right words.

Why? Because you are not allowed to hold the public, their interest or their safety hostage so you can get what you want. Get it? You do not get the power to bargain you lose that for having such job security.

You do not get to stick your demand and steal from the public via taxation.

You want more pay? Great! Work for it or find a new school to work at, and if they broke the law, they should be punished.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

You and the OP want to end public schools. I submit you don't know what yer talking about concerning said topic. Just repeating GOP talking points from wherever you came from. Blanket statements about something being a wreck are moronic nonsense .

We want to allow parents and students to get best education possible, which is not in public schools.

If government run schools are so much better, why not compete?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

You have no proof that charter schools for profit are better than public schools. We do know they are politically connected through donations to the GOP .

Charter schools for profit or private schools? They are not the same...

How do charter schools compare to traditional public schools in student performance? – Data First

Education Justice News - Charter School Achievement: Hype vs. Evidence

http://www.calcharters.org/About_charters_fact_sheet_for_parents.pdf

Proof of that claim now.