School Prayer (1 Viewer)

[Noodlegawd]

Should schools, states, government be "forcing" prayer into schools?

Trump did say that they "forced school prayer into some schools", saying that as a good thing. I'm sure his defenders will say "well he was just talking about protecting the right of students to pray in schools". The problem with this is that no students have ever actually lost that right, to the point where they (their parents) had no way, could not file a legitimate grievance if their personal right to pray in school was taken away. There is going to be some restrictions though, as a student in public school is not going to be able to disrupt class with their prayers or spend most or the whole day praying rather than learning, participating in class.

Reasonable people recognize that the call for "prayer in school" is not about personal prayers students say, but rather school run prayer, including those that would take time out of other students' learning only to listen to others pray, have to participate, even if only as an observer, "outsider".

I voted for reasonable accommodations. I see no reason why religion should be treated any differently than any other mental illness.

 

[verrip1]

Praying for our public schools doesn't seem to have many downsides. They're so screwed up that all avenues for top-to-bottom restructuring need to be embraced.

Now all we have to decide is which God(s) to pray to ...

 

[roguenuke]

There are many diverse religious beliefs in America, but if there's a void something else will take its place, like atheism or agnostic beliefs/faiths. Maybe a quiet time where each student can pray or not pray during school.

I strongly support children standing and pledging their allegiance to our country and our flag. The pledge of allegiance is a true simple worded proclamation and that's it.

Private prayer is fine, if requested by students. Public prayer in schools, at least during the academic/learning time should not be authorized and no one should be able to lead prayers, as in have any students sit through them, during those school hours, where they are forced to be in class. Staff should never be leading prayers with students at any time, as they have far too much influence on those students.

As for the pledge, no, that shouldn't be okay either, with or without the addition of the religious phrase, as it violates the religious beliefs even of some people. Requiring kids to pledge allegiance is nothing but attempting brainwashing, actual indoctrination, as the kids don't even know what they are pledging too when it is normally done (young kids are just reciting, and you find most times when students as a group refuse is when they're older, teens). There's a reason no other countries but dictatorial countries require pledges by children.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

I voted Other. No. Prayer should never be forced in public schools, the students are there to learn. They can pray at home, at church, on their lunchbreaks. Those who want to pray can do so silently, without interrupting or affecting those around them. The pledge also should not be forced.

In their lunchbreaks was what I said. They are still under the protection and power of the school (there are school rules they must follow). But also in their discretionary study time: mostly for high schoolers, this is time they can use to study for their courses, but are not required to.

My position is that they're always subject to some school rules, in lunchtime or any other time within school hours. Those rules don't all apply all the time, but some rules (like not bullying or demeaning other students) apply all the time. Bible Club just has to leave study of Leviticus 18:22 or Romans 1:26 to out-of-school classes. In fact, if any student objects to the teachings too numerous to name, which derogate women or slaves, that should be subject to review by the Principal (or their deputy) because the school rules are a higher authority than the Bible.

Really Christians should agree with this. If they can't sell Christianity on its greatest strengths, of forgiveness and humility, then they should give up on selling Christianity to children. Threatening children with death or hell, is bullying and intimidation, and has no place in school.

 

[OlNate]

This thread definitely has a Christian focus.

Muslims are required to pray at specific times of the day, one of which would generally fall during school time. I think it's right to accomodate that.

Christianity, as far as I know, has no time specific prayer mandates in the same way.

 

[roguenuke]

This thread definitely has a Christian focus.

Muslims are required to pray at specific times of the day, one of which would generally fall during school time. I think it's right to accomodate that.

Christianity, as far as I know, has no time specific prayer mandates in the same way.

There's a reason I would always allow for accommodation, as long as they are reasonable. It doesn't matter the religion. But it is mainly Christians who push for mandatory prayer time in our public schools and complain that they can't have "led prayer".

 

[Old 'N Chill]

There are many diverse religious beliefs in America, but if there's a void something else will take its place, like atheism or agnostic beliefs/faiths. Maybe a quiet time where each student can pray or not pray during school.

I strongly support children standing and pledging their allegiance to our country and our flag. The pledge of allegiance is a true simple worded proclamation and that's it.

Nothing wrong with other faiths or those who are not religious. Religious propaganda needs to stay out of the classroom, unless of course if it's a Christian school or another school of faith.

No need to pledge either, those rightwing extremists today who constantly fly the flag on their cars and trucks and have a meltdown when someone chooses not to participate at a sporting event, are far from patriots. They can call themselves patriots as much as they want, but they are lying and just play acting. Transparent.

 

[Ginger Ale]

There's definitely a movement by Christian Nationalists to bring God back into public schools. If Trump get's in, it's on the list. Just another reason to vote against this asshole.

I take this Christian army seriously, they've already proven they have no problem with minority Christian rule over all Americans.

 

[Ginger Ale]

Nothing wrong with other faiths or those who are not religious. Religious propaganda needs to stay out of the classroom, unless of course if it's a Christian school or another school of faith.

No need to pledge either, those rightwing extremists today who constantly fly the flag on their cars and trucks and have a meltdown when someone chooses not to participate at a sporting event, are far from patriots. They can call themselves patriots as much as they want, but they are lying and just play acting. Transparent.

Indeed!

 

[TheGoverness]

This thread definitely has a Christian focus.

Muslims are required to pray at specific times of the day, one of which would generally fall during school time. I think it's right to accomodate that.

Christianity, as far as I know, has no time specific prayer mandates in the same way.

Well, there is a point for that. We do live in dominantly Christian country, as are most Western countries, and Christianity is typically the major force of social religious power in the USA, and it's almost impossible to go through society here and not see it firsthand in some shape or form.

Sort of blocks out most people's minds to other religions.

 

[Gaius46]

School is for everyone, regardless of religion of lack of.
Prayer can be done at home in the same way prayer is not an acceptable reason to down tools at work.

It's potentially not possible to keep prayer just at home. Islam and Judiasm are both obvious example of a faiths that requires adherents to pray during the school day.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

Staff should never be leading prayers with students at any time, as they have far too much influence on those students.

A very good point. Bible club led by a student (in student discretionary time, eg lunchtime) is OK, but it shouldn't be led by a teacher. Teachers lend authority to anything they do in school.

When I was young, community volunteers led the religious classes (yes there were religious classes in lesson time, and I'm proud to have been one of the child leaders of the No Religion class.) I went through every religious class, beating up these volunteers who were accustomed to preaching and had very little authority of teachers. I was only ever beaten by Greek Orthodox class: they sang in Greek and I couldn't argue with that. I did not speak Greek.

Still, I would say that community volunteers are not OK either. Any school which allows an adult to take formal or informal classes in the school, lends them adult authority.

Bible study should just be a "club." Like minded students can do that in their discretionary time, but teachers or outside adults should have no role.

 

[Old 'N Chill]

In their lunchbreaks was what I said. They are still under the protection and power of the school (there are school rules they must follow). But also in their discretionary study time: mostly for high schoolers, this is time they can use to study for their courses, but are not required to.

My position is that they're always subject to some school rules, in lunchtime or any other time within school hours. Those rules don't all apply all the time, but some rules (like not bullying or demeaning other students) apply all the time. Bible Club just has to leave study of Leviticus 18:22 or Romans 1:26 to out-of-school classes. In fact, if any student objects to the teachings too numerous to name, which derogate women or slaves, that should be subject to review by the Principal (or their deputy) because the school rules are a higher authority than the Bible.

Really Christians should agree with this. If they can't sell Christianity on its greatest strengths, of forgiveness and humility, then they should give up on selling Christianity to children. Threatening children with death or hell, is bullying and intimidation, and has no place in school.

You can pray privately and silently during lunchtime, the school has no rules over personal thought.

 

[OlNate]

Well, there is a point for that. We do live in dominantly Christian country, as are most Western countries, and Christianity is typically the major force of social religious power in the USA, and it's almost impossible to go through society here and not see it firsthand in some shape or form.

Sort of blocks out most people's minds to other religions.

Yep, I get it...which is why it bears mentioning.

 

[OlNate]

There's a reason I would always allow for accommodation, as long as they are reasonable. It doesn't matter the religion. But it is mainly Christians who push for mandatory prayer time in our public schools and complain that they can't have "led prayer".

Yeah, as a Christian I can't get behind mandatory anything involving Christianity. It doesn't make sense, in terms of what I understand about my faith, for lots of reasons that probably wouldn't be interesting to a non-Christian, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Daisy]

Prayer is personal...it can be said anytime, any place, anywhere, any position, with no one knowing about it but you and God...

 

[Gordy327]

1. This is 2024.

2. Public schools a long time ago lost the ability to force children to do anything!

3. For example, a lot of schools no longer pledge allegiance to the flag each morning.

a. Why?

b. Because some/all students simply refuse to say it. (Although most of them might -- reluctantly -- stand up.)

c. Some teachers decided they did not want to look foolish by being the only person in the classroom pledging allegiance.

That or forcing recitation of the Pledge is unconstitutional.

 

[Old 'N Chill]

There's a reason I would always allow for accommodation, as long as they are reasonable. It doesn't matter the religion. But it is mainly Christians who push for mandatory prayer time in our public schools and complain that they can't have "led prayer".

Perhaps the accommodations for specific student can be met by excusing them from the classroom, and they can return when they are done with their worshiping. But like you and others have said, it's Christianity which is being forced for all students in the school.

 

[roguenuke]

Yeah, as a Christian I can't get behind mandatory anything involving Christianity. It doesn't make sense, in terms of what I understand about my faith, for lots of reasons that probably wouldn't be interesting to a non-Christian, so I'll leave it there.

Most of my loved ones (outside my husband and kids) are Christian and I was raised Christian. I felt very uncomfortable though throughout much of my time in the Navy being forced into "let us pray" situations when it came to events, ceremonies. I don't want my kids to have that in school.

I am all for taking a small amount of time though to pray or take a breather or do some small thing during school hours, that is personal for whichever student requests, needs it as long as it isn't disruptive (either silent prayer at desk or maybe stepping outside or into a side room for a minute or two, possibly a little longer) and doesn't affect their actual learning.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

This thread definitely has a Christian focus.

Muslims are required to pray at specific times of the day, one of which would generally fall during school time. I think it's right to accomodate that.

No, I'm having none of that. Students are required to attend school, and if we're required to carve out an exception of one religion then we're required to carve out an exception from school rules, for every minority religion.

I'll just found a religion which requires my child to pray from 9:15 to 3:45 ever day, and because my child is exempted from classes to pray, every other child is also exempted. Whether they use the time to pray, or to start a TikTok craze for garden gnome holidays.

Christianity, as far as I know, has no time specific prayer mandates in the same way.

Christianity is older than Islam. Stupid features have been worn off, by sheer impracticality.

I say again, if you're going to make an exception for Islam you must make an exception for all religions. Let's nip this in the bud and not make exceptions for Christians!

 

[roguenuke]

A very good point. Bible club led by a student (in student discretionary time, eg lunchtime) is OK, but it shouldn't be led by a teacher. Teachers lend authority to anything they do in school.

When I was young, community volunteers led the religious classes (yes there were religious classes in lesson time, and I'm proud to have been one of the child leaders of the No Religion class.) I went through every religious class, beating up these volunteers who were accustomed to preaching and had very little authority of teachers. I was only ever beaten by Greek Orthodox class: they sang in Greek and I couldn't argue with that. I did not speak Greek.

Still, I would say that community volunteers are not OK either. Any school which allows an adult to take formal or informal classes in the school, lends them adult authority.

Bible study should just be a "club." Like minded students can do that in their discretionary time, but teachers or outside adults should have no role.

I don't have an issue with an adult monitoring the club, just to make sure it doesn't get out of hand, control, help to separate those who might have bigger disagreements, but definitely agree about not having an actual role participating in the club, its business if it is a religious club.

 

[Rexedgar]

Prayers do not ALWAYS work, this is trivially obvious. But the theosophical argument is more subtle than this. Prayers supposedly work when they are righteous: when the person making the prayer is not motivated by personal interest, but instead by divine interest.

The big loophole is that no-one can know the mind of God. The vast majority of prayers are not acted on by God, but this does not deter the people who make prayers. They find themselves at fault. They keep praying, and you'd hope that they would become more attuned to God's will, but frankly I think they just keep trying in the dumb hope that their will might align with God's some day.

“
He could be sitting on the table right now, but you can't see him
He can't be everywhere at once doing everything for everybody
Everybody can't get what they want”

 

[OlNate]

Most of my loved ones (outside my husband and kids) are Christian and I was raised Christian. I felt very uncomfortable though throughout much of my time in the Navy being forced into "let us pray" situations when it came to events, ceremonies. I don't want my kids to have that in school.

I am all for taking a small amount of time though to pray or take a breather or do some small thing during school hours, that is personal for whichever student requests, needs it as long as it isn't disruptive and doesn't affect their actual learning.

hehe...yeah. Even as a Christian I feel uncomfortable with the showy "let us pray" moments...especially over frivilous things like sports events, I find that super cringe.

 

[Loulit01]

Prayer is personal...it can be said anytime, any place, anywhere, any position, with no one knowing about it but you and God...

While I am an atheist, there are parts of the Gospels I admire and can quote from memory. Jesus teaching how to pray is one I really like:

Matthew 6 KJV
6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

No one will stop anyone who prays like Jesus taught them.

 

[OlNate]

No, I'm having none of that. Students are required to attend school, and if we're required to carve out an exception of one religion then we're required to carve out an exception from school rules, for every minority religion.

I'll just found a religion which requires my child to pray from 9:15 to 3:45 ever day, and because my child is exempted from classes to pray, every other child is also exempted. Whether they use the time to pray, or to start a TikTok craze for garden gnome holidays.



Christianity is older than Islam. Stupid features have been worn off, by sheer impracticality.

I say again, if you're going to make an exception for Islam you must make an exception for all religions. Let's nip this in the bud and not make exceptions for Christians!

See, I don't like discrimination, regardless of who it's pointed at. If someone belongs to a religion, and that religion requires something as harmless as 15 minutes out of the day at a specific time, who does it hurt to respect that?

It's not like I"m suggesting they get leniency on their marks, or extensions on their assignments, or anything of that nature. Why be against something that doesn't hurt anyone?