same rhetoric, different reality

[Jenin]

I have grown up all my life hearing that negotiations are on the brink of resolution while witnessing one war or another destroy, postpone, or delay the Israeli and Palestinian people from reaching that last step towards equality and statehood. Over my years traveling to Palestine I have only seen a continued degradation of basic civil and human rights of the people of the West Bank and Jerusalem and Gaza. More checkpoints, more walls, more house demolitions, more restrictions on movement and trade, more sieges and more murder of Palestinian civilians. Unarmed demonstrators are practically killed, injured, or arrested daily. Thousands of political prisoners rot in Israeli jails, those are the lucky ones who missed the f-16 missiles serving extrajudicial premeditated murder of suspicious Palestinian figures against the occupation.
Peace is just around the corner they're working is out like they always do...Israel is willing to make great "concessions" just after they build another cancerous settlement over ancient Palestinian olive trees. Lets talk, they want to talk. Lets keep talking and lets let Israel rob the land and finish it's projects. They just need a few more years to continue the ethnic cleansing of east Jerusalem and the settlement projects and then they'll bomb Iran for a year or so, and well by then, maybe the Palestinians will have been butchered so bad by Israeli planes that they will capitulate to apartheid and accept the laws of Jabotinsky.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I have grown up all my life hearing that negotiations are on the brink of resolution while witnessing one war or another destroy, postpone, or delay the Israeli and Palestinian people from reaching that last step towards equality and statehood. Over my years traveling to Palestine I have only seen a continued degradation of basic civil and human rights of the people of the West Bank and Jerusalem and Gaza. More checkpoints, more walls, more house demolitions, more restrictions on movement and trade, more sieges and more murder of Palestinian civilians. Unarmed demonstrators are practically killed, injured, or arrested daily. Thousands of political prisoners rot in Israeli jails, those are the lucky ones who missed the f-16 missiles serving extrajudicial premeditated murder of suspicious Palestinian figures against the occupation.
Peace is just around the corner they're working is out like they always do...Israel is willing to make great "concessions" just after they build another cancerous settlement over ancient Palestinian olive trees. Lets talk, they want to talk. Lets keep talking and lets let Israel rob the land and finish it's projects. They just need a few more years to continue the ethnic cleansing of east Jerusalem and the settlement projects and then they'll bomb Iran for a year or so, and well by then, maybe the Palestinians will have been butchered so bad by Israeli planes that they will capitulate to apartheid and accept the laws of Jabotinsky.

Perhaps if the Palestinians had stopped tossing bombs at Israel all these years, peace would have already occurred. I notice that you didn't mention any of the Palestinian fault in all this, so I felt I needed to remind you that they have quite a bit of responsibility in what has happened to them.

 

[Frodly]

I have grown up all my life hearing that negotiations are on the brink of resolution while witnessing one war or another destroy, postpone, or delay the Israeli and Palestinian people from reaching that last step towards equality and statehood. Over my years traveling to Palestine I have only seen a continued degradation of basic civil and human rights of the people of the West Bank and Jerusalem and Gaza. More checkpoints, more walls, more house demolitions, more restrictions on movement and trade, more sieges and more murder of Palestinian civilians. Unarmed demonstrators are practically killed, injured, or arrested daily. Thousands of political prisoners rot in Israeli jails, those are the lucky ones who missed the f-16 missiles serving extrajudicial premeditated murder of suspicious Palestinian figures against the occupation.
Peace is just around the corner they're working is out like they always do...Israel is willing to make great "concessions" just after they build another cancerous settlement over ancient Palestinian olive trees. Lets talk, they want to talk. Lets keep talking and lets let Israel rob the land and finish it's projects. They just need a few more years to continue the ethnic cleansing of east Jerusalem and the settlement projects and then they'll bomb Iran for a year or so, and well by then, maybe the Palestinians will have been butchered so bad by Israeli planes that they will capitulate to apartheid and accept the laws of Jabotinsky.

The problem with your assessment is that you see only one side of the issue. The palestinians have many oppressors!! The Israelis, Hamas, other Arab peoples, and many others. The problem is that they react to this oppression in the worst way possible, by mimicking the people oppressing them.

If you look at Jewish Nationalism, it is rooted in the oppression of other nationalist movements. The idea of a Jewish state did not really exist in a comprehensive way until the late 19th century. What was the cause of this? The emergence of German Nationalist movements, which defined themselves in a large way as "not Jewish" They believed they were superior. Same as in the Russian Nationalist movement, which also contained harsh anti-semitic rhetoric. Since the majority of the world's jewish population lived in eastern europe, that was an enormous problem for jews. The problem is that Jews instead of attempting to break the oppressive cycle of Nationalism, created a Nationalist movement themselves. That Nationalist movement created the Palestinian Nationalist movement, which is rooted in anti-semitism. "Palestinians" did not exist until 1948, but they came into being and are defined as "not them" not the Israelis. Their entire Nationalist movement is predicated on hatred of a Jewish State.


To blame only Israel for their actions, and to ignore the actions of Palestinians is dishonest and incorrect. Both groups have done a great deal of wrong, but as Americans we need to stop facilitating this wrong doing, and actually attempt to act as independent arbiters in this conflict. Otherwise, it really will be a war without end.

 

[Marc39]

The leader of Hamas just announced they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with Israel.

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution - UPI.com

 

[Frodly]

The leader of Hamas just announced they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with Israel.

Hamas leader rejects two-state solution - UPI.com

Which does not really matter, as circumstances change. Hamas leadership changes, and most importantly Hamas does not actually represent the will of the Palestinian people. Hamas works for the benefit of Hamas. Palestinians will realize this one day.

 

[tlmorg02]

Which does not really matter, as circumstances change. Hamas leadership changes, and most importantly Hamas does not actually represent the will of the Palestinian people. Hamas works for the benefit of Hamas. Palestinians will realize this one day.

You are quite right. Many Palestinians are super-averse to any peace at this point as Gaza still lies is ruins and many have no power or water. Hamas is seizing upon this anger by saying at this point there can never be peace with Israel.

 

[AYA]

Israel begins new settlement, despite U.S. opposition - Haaretz - Israel News

"The leaders of Israel just showed that they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with their neighbors."

 

[donsutherland1]

Jenin,

Six points:

1. There is no ethnic cleansing underway.

2. The Palestinians under Yasser Arafat should have seized the historic opportunity by accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal to end the historic dispute. Arafat did not, even as Prime Minister Barak did.

3. The security fence became necessary only on account of a renewed campaign of terrorism against Israel and Israeli civilians.

4. The Palestinians had yet another possible opportunity to make significant progress under the Annapolis framework, but offered almost no flexibility.

5. That a new Israeli government has come to power that likely favors a slower approach on the political track may, in part, be a consequence of Palestinian rigidity. That is also places greater emphasis on economic and political development for Palestinians ahead of a final settlement may well reflect the failures of past approaches that sought a rapid political settlement of the entire dispute.

6. Events may have led to a shifting of priorities for Israel whereby the Iranian track might have greater urgency than the Palestinian one. That events have shifted is no fault of either side. However, Palestinian intransigence may have squandered time that could have led much more progress prior to a shifting of priorities.

Hopefully, a step-by-step diplomatic process can be initiated with the ultimate goal being the establishment of a two-state solution. However, that process will only succeed if both sides make concessions and Hamas' ability to preclude compromise is overcome. The Palestinians cannot reasonably expect, much less demand, that Israel make all the concessions.

In the end, actions have consequences. Palestinian rejection of President Clinton's bridging proposal was a historic blunder. Palestinian rigidity during the Annapolis process impeded progress and may have resulted in an opportunity cost associated with the shifting of priorities for Israel. All said, the Palestinians might have believed that rejection of President Clinton's proposal and implacability in the diplomatic process would strengthen their bargaining position. However, passage of events and lost time, may actually have put the Palestinians in a worse position relative to what they would have gained had they accepted President Clinton's proposal or been reasonably flexible during the Annapolis process.

 

[Tashah]

"The leaders of Israel just showed that they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with their neighbors."

Canned quote.

Netanyahu and Obama are discussing the I/P situation today in Washington.

I'll wait for the post conference comments and media briefing.

 

[donsutherland1]

Netanyahu and Obama are discussing the I/P situation today in Washington.

I'll wait for the post conference comments and media briefing.

Tashah,

Your approach makes a lot of sense to me. It's certainly greatly preferable to prejudging the issue as sadly seems to be par for the proverbial course at times in this subforum.

 

[AYA]

Canned quote.

Netanyahu and Obama are discussing the I/P situation today in Washington.

I'll wait for the post conference comments and media briefing.

I was not quoting the article.

I was paraphrasing Marc39's ridiculous assertion. I apologize if that misled you.

 

[Marc39]

Which does not really matter, as circumstances change. Hamas leadership changes, and most importantly Hamas does not actually represent the will of the Palestinian people. Hamas works for the benefit of Hamas. Palestinians will realize this one day.

Hasn't changed since the Muslim invasion of Palestine in the 7th century. Last time the Pals were offered the opportunity for statehood, in 2000, they rejected the offer, then, turned around and started blowing themselves up in Israel. Mind you, I have no problem with Pals blowing themselves up, in fact, I wish they'd do more of it, I just wish they'd do it in their own neighborhod, only.

 

[Marc39]

Israel begins new settlement, despite U.S. opposition - Haaretz - Israel News

"The leaders of Israel just showed that they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with their neighbors."

What of the Arab settlements constantly going up? Nothing in Haaretz about this? How surprising. Speak to Christians in Gaza and the West Bank who are being chased out of their homes by the Muslims. Such hypocrisy!

 

[Marc39]

Israel begins new settlement, despite U.S. opposition - Haaretz - Israel News

"The leaders of Israel just showed that they will not accept a two-state solution and will never live in peace with their neighbors."

Jewish settlement, permitted under international law, does not conflict with a two-state solution. Arabs live in Israel (regrettably) and Jews should be allowed to live in the West Bank. On a positive note, Jews are what keep the West Bank civilized.

 

[donsutherland1]

Today's edition of The Jerusalem Post quoted a Hamas spokesperson as follows concerning yesterday's meeting between President Obama and Prime Minister Netanyahu:

Obama's remarks and expressions of hope were intended to deceive the world community, regarding everything connected to the continuing behavior and existence of the racist and radical Zionist entity.

Notice that the Hamas spokesperson isn't merely complaining about a U.S. policy tilt. He is also objecting to U.S. policies "connected" to the "existence" of Israel. In other words, Hamas is again rejecting Israel's right to exist. It is that rejectionism that poses a large obstacle to possible peace. While Israel's critics have already expressed opposition in some of the media following the discussions between the two leaders to what appears to be a somewhat abridged concept of sovereignty that Prime Minister Netanyahu's two-state formulation would entail for a Palestinian state, Hamas is outright rejecting a two-state solution.

 

[Jenin]

Perhaps if the Palestinians had stopped tossing bombs at Israel all these years, peace would have already occurred. I notice that you didn't mention any of the Palestinian fault in all this, so I felt I needed to remind you that they have quite a bit of responsibility in what has happened to them.

First of all, no "fault" of the Palestinians is worth the concentration camp life Israel has imposed on them in Gaza.
Second, the palestinians stopped rocket attacks for 1 full year while Israel continued it's arrests, land annexation, house demolitions, building permit denials, and murder of palestinians in palestine.
After Israel's pro-fata coup attempt failed in gaza, Israel intensified an already crippling siege.

 

[Jenin]

The problem with your assessment is that you see only one side of the issue.

The problem is, this is not an issue about equal sides. Israel occupies palestine and robbs it's people of land and life. Been the case since 1948. It's really an Israeli trademark, all this theft and murder.

The palestinians have many oppressors!! The Israelis, Hamas, other Arab peoples, and many others. The problem is that they react to this oppression in the worst way possible, by mimicking the people oppressing them.

UN resoultions, non violent resistance since the Nakba, what have they brought the palestinian people? It did not work. It will not work unless the world community threatens Israel with a seige like the one they are imposing on their gazan victims.

Do you know by any chance where most of the gazan people originate from? Look it up.

If you look at Jewish Nationalism, it is rooted in the oppression of other nationalist movements. The idea of a Jewish state did not really exist in a comprehensive way until the late 19th century. What was the cause of this? The emergence of German Nationalist movements, which defined themselves in a large way as "not Jewish" They believed they were superior. Same as in the Russian Nationalist movement, which also contained harsh anti-semitic rhetoric. Since the majority of the world's jewish population lived in eastern europe, that was an enormous problem for jews.

European Jewry's problems lied in europe. The palestinian people had nothing to do with the oppression of the jews of europe.

The problem is that Jews instead of attempting to break the oppressive cycle of Nationalism, created a Nationalist movement themselves. That Nationalist movement created the Palestinian Nationalist movement, which is rooted in anti-semitism.

The first palestinian nationalist movements worthy of mention were secual movements that had nothing to do with hatred of israelis for being jews but rather everything to do with fighting an occupying enemy that displaced the majority of their people and stole their land.

Do many palestinians hate the jews now? Yes.
Why? The "jews" stole palestine.

"Palestinians" did not exist until 1948, but they came into being and are defined as "not them" not the Israelis. Their entire Nationalist movement is predicated on hatred of a Jewish State.

This is just bull****. My great grandfather considered himself a palestinian before the european jews flooded palestine.

To blame only Israel for their actions, and to ignore the actions of Palestinians is dishonest and incorrect.

The suffering of the palestinian people is a direct result of the success of the zionist project. The denial of palestinian identity and rights is the successful aim of zionism to establish as much a homogeneous zionist state as possible. This was achieved through a smart and savage terror campaign that turned into an all out war which resulted in the expulsion of the majority of the palestinians by and from the nascent israeli state. Ethnic cleansing 101.

Both groups have done a great deal of wrong, but as Americans we need to stop facilitating this wrong doing, and actually attempt to act as independent arbiters in this conflict. Otherwise, it really will be a war without end.

I completely agree. Something has to be done about the immense power the criminal Israel lobby has over politicians.

 

[Jenin]

Jenin,

Six points:

1. There is no ethnic cleansing underway.

What do you call the denial of building permits for palestinians in east jerusalem? The confiscation of their ID cards, their only proof of residency to jerusalem? The huge and advance colonization projects all around jerusalem flooding arab east jerusalem with jews ever since 1967?
The demographic ratios continue to tilt in favor of jews in and around occupied east jerusalem. This is an implicit israeli ethnic cleansing policy.

2. The Palestinians under Yasser Arafat should have seized the historic opportunity by accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal to end the historic dispute. Arafat did not, even as Prime Minister Barak did.

They did, and they continued negotiations at taba and almost reached a conclusion until ehud barak withdrew the negotiators. The palestinian negotiating team had to deal with the israeli negotiators and the americans pressing them consistently on behalf of israel to accept an unacceptable offer.

3. The security fence became necessary only on account of a renewed campaign of terrorism against Israel and Israeli civilians.

This is the excuse war criminal ariel sharon gave a not so gullible world community. The International world court clearly states this is an illegal wall that robs palestinians of land they own for the purpose of settlement expansion and the segregation of jerusalem from the west bank.

4. The Palestinians had yet another possible opportunity to make significant progress under the Annapolis framework, but offered almost no flexibility.

That is a lie and you know it. Israel started a bloody war in Gaza to avoid reaching a conclusion with the palestinian negotiators. And now nitanyahu is coming to further delay the final status negotiations until israel has successfully changed the demography and geography of jerualem and the west bank territory the wall has swallowed in it's favor. You know this, so stop feeding us bull****.

I dont get it, are you an Israeli government spokesman? €

5. That a new Israeli government has come to power that likely favors a slower approach on the political track may, in part, be a consequence of Palestinian rigidity. That is also places greater emphasis on economic and political development for Palestinians ahead of a final settlement may well reflect the failures of past approaches that sought a rapid political settlement of the entire dispute.

What you call palestinian regidity is actually palestinian refusal to accept an apartheid, unsecure state that does not address any of the palestinian people's primary national concerns: East Jerusalem and the right of return.
Israel does not want an independent viable and sovereign palestinian state, Israel wants a weak and subordinate palestinian bantustan with limited autonomy. Hence bibi's refusal to mention a "two state" solution.

6. Events may have led to a shifting of priorities for Israel whereby the Iranian track might have greater urgency than the Palestinian one. That events have shifted is no fault of either side. However, Palestinian intransigence may have squandered time that could have led much more progress prior to a shifting of priorities.

Exactly the delay tactitcs bull**** i'm talking about.

 

[Tashah]

Exactly the delay tactitcs bull**** i'm talking about.

If Hamas had not provoked Olmert with saturation rocket attacks right before the election, Netanyahu would not be the Israeli PM today.

Your "leadership" is your own worst enemy.

 

[Marc39]

What do you call the denial of building permits for palestinians in east jerusalem? The confiscation of their ID cards, their only proof of residency to jerusalem? The huge and advance colonization projects all around jerusalem flooding arab east jerusalem with jews ever since 1967?
The demographic ratios continue to tilt in favor of jews in and around occupied east jerusalem. This is an implicit israeli ethnic cleansing policy.

What of Muslim confiscaton of Christian land in Gaza and the West Bank? Or, is this not on your radar screen?

They did, and they continued negotiations at taba and almost reached a conclusion until ehud barak withdrew the negotiators. The palestinian negotiating team had to deal with the israeli negotiators and the americans pressing them consistently on behalf of israel to accept an unacceptable offer.

Untrue propaganda. Arafat had a tremendous proposal from Israel and Prince Bandar acknowledged it when he told Arafat he committed a crime in not accepting Israel's proposal. Please stop the revisionist BS.

This is the excuse war criminal ariel sharon gave a not so gullible world community. The International world court clearly states this is an illegal wall that robs palestinians of land they own for the purpose of settlement expansion and the segregation of jerusalem from the west bank.

You're pulling out the Sharon war criminal nonsense? You must be desperate. Listen and listen well: The savage Pals brought the wall upon themselves for their heinous acts of blowing themselves up in Israeli pizza parlors, buses and restaurants. If you behave like animals, you will be treated like animals. ICJ rulings are non-binding, so, learn the law before you misinform people about the legality of the wall. And, it's not a wall, it's a fence.

That is a lie and you know it. Israel started a bloody war in Gaza to avoid reaching a conclusion with the palestinian negotiators. And now nitanyahu is coming to further delay the final status negotiations until israel has successfully changed the demography and geography of jerualem and the west bank territory the wall has swallowed in it's favor. You know this, so stop feeding us bull****.

I dont get it, are you an Israeli government spokesman? €

Hamas provoked Israel into war with thousands of rockets fired into Israel since 2001. This represents acts of war. You like to act tough with Israel, but, when you get swatted like a fly by the IDF, you wimper like a baby. Whaaaaa!!!

What you call palestinian regidity is actually palestinian refusal to accept an apartheid, unsecure state that does not address any of the palestinian people's primary national concerns: East Jerusalem and the right of return.
Israel does not want an independent viable and sovereign palestinian state, Israel wants a weak and subordinate palestinian bantustan with limited autonomy. Hence bibi's refusal to mention a "two state" solution.

Now, the apartheid nonsense? You really are desperate. Stop blowing up Israelis and you'll be treated like human beings, not like the savages you are.

Exactly the delay tactitcs bull**** i'm talking about.

You never learn. Leave the Israelis alone. Worry about improving your own lives rather than trying to destroy Israelis' lives. This is why you're such failures and losers.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

First of all, no "fault" of the Palestinians is worth the concentration camp life Israel has imposed on them in Gaza.
Second, the palestinians stopped rocket attacks for 1 full year while Israel continued it's arrests, land annexation, house demolitions, building permit denials, and murder of palestinians in palestine.
After Israel's pro-fata coup attempt failed in gaza, Israel intensified an already crippling siege.

Firstly, if the Palestinian people want a different life, they need to make different choices. Everything else you say stems from what I just said.

 

[Marc39]

First of all, no "fault" of the Palestinians is worth the concentration camp life Israel has imposed on them in Gaza.
Second, the palestinians stopped rocket attacks for 1 full year while Israel continued it's arrests, land annexation, house demolitions, building permit denials, and murder of palestinians in palestine.
After Israel's pro-fata coup attempt failed in gaza, Israel intensified an already crippling siege.

Learn the history before you post. You'll be more edified and less misleading. The concentraton camps in Gaza are the direct result of the members of the Arab League wanting the Pals to live in squalor so as to use as a continued propaganda tool against the Israelis. Why do you suppose Pals are denied citizenship in all the Arab states? Why do you suppose Pals need permission from Hamas to leave Gaza? Why do you suppose Pals cannot move out of Gaza? Why do you suppose the oil-rich Arab countries provide so little financial aid to the Pals? Why are the Pals the only refugee group in the history of the world that has second, third and fourth-generation descendants? The Pals need to stop blaming the Jews for their miserable lives and put that blame squarely where it belongs: On the heads of their own cynical and sinister people.

 

[Jenin]

Firstly, if the Palestinian people want a different life, they need to make different choices. Everything else you say stems from what I just said.

So said hitler to the jews of warsaw ghetto.

 

[Jenin]

If Hamas had not provoked Olmert with saturation rocket attacks right before the election, Netanyahu would not be the Israeli PM today.

Your "leadership" is your own worst enemy.

Hamas fired rockets in response to Israeli siege and murder of gazans. Israel broke the ceasefire when it raided gaza and killed several people around a week before it's expiration. Hamas replied to the continued crimes against the gazan people by no obliging itself to sit hands tied behind the back while Israel continued it's crimes. Also, Hamas came to power because of Israeli actions. The people elected an incorruptible Islamic resistance movement. Israel responded happily with warcrimes and escalation inorder to prolong the rhetoric and continue to change the reality in the occupied territories.

 

[Jenin]

What of Muslim confiscaton of Christian land in Gaza and the West Bank? Or, is this not on your radar screen?

You are a lying little biggot. This is a false allegation.

Untrue propaganda. Arafat had a tremendous proposal from Israel and Prince Bandar acknowledged it when he told Arafat he committed a crime in not accepting Israel's proposal. Please stop the revisionist BS.

No palestinian leader would have accepted the camp david offer. Taba negotiations forllowed and were stopped by Israel. 8 years of Israeli theft and settlement expansion ensued under the lobby manipulated bush administration.