Russia denies sending mercenaries to shore up Nicolás Maduro's position

[oneworld2]

Intentional ignorance it is.... Read the posts, look up the Venezuelan Constitution. Your continued ignorance is not my fault.

You are dodging your own claims

You are the one that made the claim , like you are an authority on the Venezuelan constitution :roll:

Your claim , back it , or be prepared to be called out as a blow@rse

 

[Fledermaus]

You are dodging your own claims

You are the one that made the claim , like you are an authority on the Venezuelan constitution :roll:

Your claim , back it , or be prepared to be called out as a blow@rse

Ranting rather than researching...

No wonder you continue to lose every time you get into internet debates....

 

[oneworld2]

Ranting rather than researching...

No wonder you continue to lose every time you get into internet debates....

I am asking you to back your claim that Guaido's declaration/usurpation is legal and you refuse to back it but ,insanely , wish to claim that by doing so you have " won " something .

Is that the strange world you inhabit ?

You make a claim , refuse to back it and thus win the debate ?

Blow@rse alert !!

 

[Fledermaus]

I am asking you to back your claim that Guaido's declaration/usurpation is legal and you refuse to back it but ,insanely , wish to claim that by doing so you have " won " something .

Is that the strange world you inhabit ?

You make a claim , refuse to back it and thus win the debate ?

Blow@rse alert !!

See Post #27.

 

[Evilroddy]

Recognizing a legitimate president is meddling.... Hmmmm

One has to be a citizen in order to be able to endorse.

Hmmmm

No.

And I bow to your superior military knowledge. (sarcasm)

That is like saying every car is a dump truck because you can haul something. Or every motorcycle is a racing bike because it has a throttle.

Fledermaus:

How is Juan Guiado a legitimate candidate for the Venezuelan presidency? He never ran as a presidential candidate last year and so cannot claim that he was prevented from becoming president via election fraud? There are two vice-presidents ahead of the leader of the National Assembly in the line of succession. He is the head of a completely different and separate branch of government. He has openly conspired with foreign governments and agents to overthrow the sitting government of Venezuela and he has repeatedly encouraged the opposition he leads to use violence in order to take power. He is a legitimate rebel but not a legitimate candidate for president.

How would Americans feel and react if a Chuck Schumer like character announced that he was unilaterally replacing Mr. Trump due to a protracted government shut down caused by the tampering of foreign states in the American economy and political process, by by-passing Mr. Pense, Ms. Pelosi and the rest of the legal line of succession list in order to become the interim president of the USA? How would it go down if Americans knew he had the financial and political backing of China, Russia, North Korea, Iran and the Lima Group to reinforce his claim? Not well I suspect and no legitimacy in the eyes of most Americans, even the hardcore Trump haters, if this type of a scenario played itself out. Mr. Guiado is a domestic enemy of Venezuela.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

See Post #27.

Post 27 doesn't cite anything. Doesn't give any validation to you preposterous claim

Why can't you cite anything ?

Why are you running away from your own claim ?

 

[Fledermaus]

Post 27 doesn't cite anything. Doesn't give any validation to you preposterous claim

Why can't you cite anything ?

Why are you running away from your own claim ?

See post #27.

 

[oneworld2]

Fledermaus:

How is Juan Guiado a legitimate candidate for the Venezuelan presidency? He never ran as a presidential candidate last year and so cannot claim that he was prevented from becoming president via election fraud? There are two vice-presidents ahead of the leader of the National Assembly in the line of succession. He is the head of a completely different and separate branch of government. He has openly conspired with foreign governments and agents to overthrow the sitting government of Venezuela and he has repeatedly encouraged the opposition he leads to use violence in order to take power. He is a legitimate rebel but not a legitimate candidate for president.

How would Americans feel and react if a Chuck Schumer like character announced that he was unilaterally replacing Mr. Trump due to a protracted government shut down caused by the tampering of foreign states in the American economy and political process, by by-passing Mr. Pense, Ms. Pelosi and the rest of the legal line of succession list in order to become the interim president of the USA? How would it go down if Americans knew he had the financial and political backing of China, Russia, North Korea, Iran and the Lima Group to reinforce his claim? Not well I suspect and no legitimacy in the eyes of most Americans, even the hardcore Trump haters, if this type of a scenario played itself out. Mr. Guiado is a domestic enemy of Venezuela.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Mr Evilroddy ,

You are ,imo , trying to appeal ( in the last paragraph ) to something that just ain't there. This poster believes the moon is made of cheese if it comes from the State Department or A N other US source

I applaud your patience though

 

[oneworld2]

See post #27.

Why , it states nothing to support your inane drivel ?

 

[Fledermaus]

Fledermaus:

How is Juan Guiado a legitimate candidate for the Venezuelan presidency? He never ran as a presidential candidate last year and so cannot claim that he was prevented from becoming president via election fraud? There are two vice-presidents ahead of the leader of the National Assembly in the line of succession. He is the head of a completely different and separate branch of government. He has openly conspired with foreign governments and agents to overthrow the sitting government of Venezuela and he has repeatedly encouraged the opposition he leads to use violence in order to take power. He is a legitimate rebel but not a legitimate candidate for president.

How would Americans feel and react if a Chuck Schumer like character announced that he was unilaterally replacing Mr. Trump due to a protracted government shut down caused by the tampering of foreign states in the American economy and political process, by by-passing Mr. Pense, Ms. Pelosi and the rest of the legal line of succession list in order to become the interim president of the USA? How would it go down if Americans knew he had the financial and political backing of China, Russia, North Korea, Iran and the Lima Group to reinforce his claim? Not well I suspect and no legitimacy in the eyes of most Americans, even the hardcore Trump haters, if this type of a scenario played itself out. Mr. Guiado is a domestic enemy of Venezuela.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

So is it legal for Guaidó to have been declared interim president of Venezuela?

According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before taking office, a new election shall take place (...) And while the president is elected and takes office, the interim president shall be the president of the National Assembly.”

Antonio Ecarri, a constitutional lawyer and vice president of the opposition party Democratic Action (Accion Democratica) said that article 233 could be used because the absence is due to the “usurpation of the presidential office, which has left the position empty.”

 

[Fledermaus]

Why , it states nothing to support your inane drivel ?

You are still ranting rather than researching.

 

[Evilroddy]

Mr Evilroddy ,

You are ,imo , trying to appeal ( in the last paragraph ) to something that just ain't there. This poster believes the moon is made of cheese if it comes from the State Department or A N other US source

I applaud your patience though

Oneworld2:

Fledermaus is not a closed-minded person. Nor is he irrational; nor is he prone to flights of fancy. He is stubborn however if he believes he is right.

Articles 233 and 333 of the Venezuelan Constitution make the next in line of succession after the sitting president one of the two vice-presidents. The leader of the National Assembly is next after the VP's and thus the National Assembly is jumping the queue to seize power. The VP's just happen to be hardcore Chavistas too and that does not serve the right-wing agenda behind the coup d'etat, so the constitution is being ignored and the National Assembly and its leader are over-reaching for ideological reasons.


Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

Oneworld2:

Fledermaus is not a closed-minded person. Nor is he irrational; nor is he prone to flights of fancy. He is stubborn however if he believes he is right.

Articles 233 and 333 of the Venezuelan Constitution make the next in line of succession after the sitting president one of the two vice-presidents. The leader of the National Assembly is next after the VP's and thus the National Assembly is jumping the queue to seize power. The VP's just happen to be hardcore Chavistas too and that does not serve the right-wing agenda behind the coup d'etat, so the constitution is being ignored and the National Assembly and its leader are over-reaching for ideological reasons.


Cheers.
Evilroddy.

We can agree to differ on this poster then , no problems.

So his claim that the usurpation is legal is false , even according to the constitution he claims supports his stance. That's why he chose not to refer to it ?

 

[Fledermaus]

We can agree to differ on this poster then , no problems.

So his claim that the usurpation is legal is false , even according to the constitution he claims supports his stance. That's why he chose not to refer to it ?

Silly...

I chose not to reply to your uninformed personage.

 

[oneworld2]

Silly...

I chose not to reply to your uninformed personage.

Your claim is wrong whoever you chose to reply to or avoid by the looks of it

And if Evilroddy is right on the line of succession , and I'll take his word over yours all day long , your claim about Guaidó's usurpation being " legitimate " is just plain wrong

 

[Evilroddy]

So is it legal for Guaidó to have been declared interim president of Venezuela?

According to the National Assembly, it has a right to name an interim president according to article 233 and 333 to restore the validity of the constitution since they view the last May 20 elections as illegitimate.

Article 233 of the Venezuelan constitution states that “when the president-elect is absolutely absent before taking office, a new election shall take place (...) And while the president is elected and takes office, the interim president shall be the president of the National Assembly.”

Antonio Ecarri, a constitutional lawyer and vice president of the opposition party Democratic Action (Accion Democratica) said that article 233 could be used because the absence is due to the “usurpation of the presidential office, which has left the position empty.”

Fledermaus:

There is no complete absence of a president. Mr. Maduro is alive and in office. Your cited legal scholar is the Vice President of the opposition party which is trying to remove the sitting president - conflict of interest and legal bias is probable. The National Assembly only has that power when there is a complete absence of a presidential candidate, ie. no one in the succession. But there are two VP's available to replace a missing president. The opposition controlled National Assembly is also claiming that Maduro was illegitimate in his previous term and claims that all acts, orders and executive decisions by him including judicial appointments are invalid and that constitutional amendments made under his false presidency (which are not made by the president anyway) are also invalid. The National Assembly is also ignoring the long-established line of succession.

I read the same Euronews article which you seem to be quoting from and I assume that you saw the flow chart explaining the complex structure of the Venezuelan State and that the National Assembly does not have the popular support or the legal grounding to go it alone on its own. They are arguing that since, from their point of view, one part of the government is illegitimate that all of the government is illegitimate (except themselves) and that therefore they have primacy to replace all parts of the government as they see fit. Thus they can ignore the line of succession and declare the president to be completely absent. This is a coup d'etat being sold as a constitutional crisis. But it's not. If the US can lower the legitimacy bar in order to accept the completely fraudulent election of the Honduran president last year, which was proven to be mathematically impossible to have occurred, then they should also accept the far weaker case that despite evidence of corruption and fraud the Venezuelan presidential election was also legitimate by the Latin American standards demonstrated in 2018. But the alleged faux winner in Honduras was a right-wing candidate who would put US interests ahead of his country's, while the alleged faux winner of the Venezuelan election was a left-wing candidate who is an economic nationalist. So there you have it.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/27...o-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your claim is wrong whoever you chose to reply to or avoid by the looks of it

And if Evilroddy is right on the line of succession , and I'll take his word over yours all day long , your claim about Guaidó's usurpation being " legitimate " is just plain wrong

My claim you are uninformed is supported by the questions you asked and the way you act.

 

[oneworld2]

My claim you are uninformed is supported by the questions you asked and the way you act.

Your claim that Guaidó 's proclamation to be the president of Venezuela is " legitimate " remains null. So much for that or any other claims you make

 

[Evilroddy]

We can agree to differ on this poster then , no problems.

So his claim that the usurpation is legal is false , even according to the constitution he claims supports his stance. That's why he chose not to refer to it ?

Oneworld2:

Constitutional law is always a grey zone when power politics are at stake. Look at the constitutional contortions that the British Parliament went through in 1688 in order to bring "King William and Mary" of the Dutch House of Orange to the English throne during the Glorious Revolution. Or the complete ignoring of the required ratification process laid out in the US Articles of Confederation in order to push through a new US Constitution in the 1780's. Power trumps written law or tradition if power has the will and means to do so.

The Venezuelan National Assembly is claiming one power from their constitution while completely ignoring the clearly delineated constitutional line of succession in that same document at the same time. Their argument for this selective reading of the constitution is that there is an absolute absence of a presidential candidate (which there is not due to the line of succession) because they declare it to be so and will not let the judiciary, which they see as illegitimate too (because it is heavily peopled with pro-Chavistas) Saxo otherwise. In other words they are legitimate in their claims only because they have unilaterally declared most other branches of the government to be illegitimate in their eyes. Not really good legal reasoning unless you have the luxury of Columbian guns and American money just waiting off-stage to validate the legal reasoning with steel and gold. This is about holding/seizing power and neither side is going to let the law get in their way.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Fledermaus]

Fledermaus:

There is no complete absence of a president. Mr. Maduro is alive and in office. Your cited legal scholar is the Vice President of the opposition party which is trying to remove the sitting president - conflict of interest and legal bias is probable. The National Assembly only has that power when there is a complete absence of a presidential candidate, ie. no one in the succession. But there are two VP's available to replace a missing president. The opposition controlled National Assembly is also claiming that Maduro was illegitimate in his previous term and claims that all acts, orders and executive decisions by him including judicial appointments are invalid and that constitutional amendments made under his false presidency (which are not made by the president anyway) are also invalid. The National Assembly is also ignoring the long-established line of succession.

I read the same Euronews article which you seem to be quoting from and I assume that you saw the flow chart explaining the complex structure of the Venezuelan State and that the National Assembly does not have the popular support or the legal grounding to go it alone on its own. They are arguing that since, from their point of view, one part of the government is illegitimate that all of the government is illegitimate (except themselves) and that therefore they have primacy to replace all parts of the government as they see fit. Thus they can ignore the line of succession and declare the president to be completely absent. This is a coup d'etat being sold as a constitutional crisis. But it's not. If the US can lower the legitimacy bar in order to accept the completely fraudulent election of the Honduran president last year, which was proven to be mathematically impossible to have occurred, then they should also accept the far weaker case that despite evidence of corruption and fraud the Venezuelan presidential election was also legitimate by the Latin American standards demonstrated in 2018. But the alleged faux winner in Honduras was a right-wing candidate who would put US interests ahead of his country's, while the alleged faux winner of the Venezuelan election was a left-wing candidate who is an economic nationalist. So there you have it.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/27...o-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

According to Venezuelans Maduro has been present as President in the same way Bernie was present in "Weekend at Bernie's".

And Euronews is the site. I should have linked.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your claim that Guaidó 's proclamation to be the president of Venezuela is " legitimate " remains null. So much for that or any other claims you make

Your opinion is noted.

Others disagree. Others who know far more than you in the subject.

 

[Litwin]

You made the claim , so it's you that is obliged to back it

Where , what part of the Venezuelan constitution validates Guaido's claim ?

How is his proclamation legal under the law or constitution ?

grounded in Venezuela's constitution, which allows the head of the legislature to lead a caretaker government

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...nd-nicolas-maduro-duel-for-control-of-country

 

[oneworld2]

Oneworld2:

Constitutional law is always a grey zone when power politics are at stake. Look at the constitutional contortions that the British Parliament went through in 1688 in order to bring "King William and Mary" of the Dutch House of Orange to the English throne during the Glorious Revolution. Or the complete ignoring of the required ratification process laid out in the US Articles of Confederation in order to push through a new US Constitution in the 1780's. Power trumps written law or tradition if power has the will and means to do so.

The Venezuelan National Assembly is claiming one power from their constitution while completely ignoring the clearly delineated constitutional line of succession in that same document at the same time. Their argument for this selective reading of the constitution is that there is an absolute absence of a presidential candidate (which there is not due to the line of succession) because they declare it to be so and will not let the judiciary, which they see as illegitimate too (because it is heavily peopled with pro-Chavistas) Saxo otherwise. In other words they are legitimate in their claims only because they have unilaterally declared most other branches of the government to be illegitimate in their eyes. Not really good legal reasoning unless you have the luxury of Columbian guns and American money just waiting off-stage to validate the legal reasoning with steel and gold. This is about holding/seizing power and neither side is going to let the law get in their way.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

It's been obvious since the Bolivarian revolution took place that the US and its right wing lackies in Venezuela have been trying to undermine democracy there. The attempted ouster of Chavez and Maduro , the sanctions the threats are all part of an ongoing plan in the US to undermine democracy , functioning democracy for the most time , in Venezuela. To listen to these charlatans and their forum mouth pieces here spouting off about the , alleged , " support for " " defence of " Venezuelan democracy is risible. Legitimacy , constitutional integrity etc etc are just glossy terms being used to hide blatant outside attacks on a centre left government that wishes an , crime of crimes , independent path.

Do you think droves of people will not be killed as a result of this shameless US partisan anti democratic/unconstitutional meddling ? Do you really think the likes of Fledermaus , or any of the other "America does no wrong " nutcases here , give a hoot about them ? Give a hoot about Iraqis , Afghans , Libyans , Syrians ? do I need to go on ?

I applaud your patience with them but I personally find them odious in the extreme

 

[Fledermaus]

It's been obvious since the Bolivarian revolution took place that the US and its right wing lackies in Venezuela have been trying to undermine democracy there. The attempted ouster of Chavez and Maduro , the sanctions the threats are all part of an ongoing plan in the US to undermine democracy , functioning democracy for the most time , in Venezuela. To listen to these charlatans and their forum mouth pieces here spouting off about the , alleged , " support for " " defence of " Venezuelan democracy is risible. Legitimacy , constitutional integrity etc etc are just glossy terms being used to hide blatant outside attacks on a centre left government that wishes an , crime of crimes , independent path.

Do you think droves of people will not be killed as a result of this shameless US partisan anti democratic/unconstitutional meddling ? Do you really think the likes of Fledermaus , or any of the other "America does no wrong " nutcases here , give a hoot about them ? Give a hoot about Iraqis , Afghans , Libyans , Syrians ? do I need to go on ?

I applaud your patience with them but I personally find them odious in the extreme

The debacle in Venezuela is of Chavez and Maduro's making.

Between nationalizing then mismanagement of the oil sector to Ill advised price controls, etc they took the richest country and ran it into the ground.

Droves of people have already died opposing Maduro's government. More were jailed.

So cheer for the dictatorial guy killing his own people and screwing the public if you like.

It seems a trend.

Cheering for governments getting their own people killed for some failed ideology.

 

[oneworld2]

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...nd-nicolas-maduro-duel-for-control-of-country

Thanks for that balanced article from Canada :roll:

Just because you say Maduro's government isn't legal doesn't mean it is so. I would have thought that much was obvious

Maduro was voted in with elections were the outside interference of the opposition to him resulted in most of them not taking part . They then decide to cry foul and illegitimacy of the result. I'm pretty sure most school kids would laugh at lunacy being passed off as legitimate jibes at Maduro and co