Results: States that Restrict Concealed Carry have Higher Murder Rates

[BretJ]

I know what the 2A was originally designed to do, I didn't mention that because I was talking about the NRA and not the 2A. Two different things. Understand? I hope so.

Also if you're using a weapon that will literally deafen and disorient you when fired in doors you don't have the right weapon for home defense



Exactly my point, we've made the decision that its worth it but its time to acknowledge the same numbers and acceptance when it comes to guns.

As in just get over it? That the numbers of lived saved are worth more than the deaths? That we acknowledge that their will always be a small segment of society that will abuse rights and privileges but understand that the price comes with living in a free country?
We accept this for alcohol. Why are firearms different?

 

[Jerry]

It is part of it.

When you account for social and economic problems, gun control makes crime worse. That's what OP's study says.

So, no, gun control is not part of a solution to crime. Gun control makes crime worse.

 

[cpgrad08]

It is part of it.

No not really.

 

[TurtleDude]

It is part of it.

gun control takes weapons away from those who use weapons to prevent crime without taking weapons away from those who use weapons to commit crimes

gun control is thus favored by almost every criminal as well as politicians who consider criminals-and their supporters-as constituents

 

[Bob Blaylock]

As in just get over it? That the numbers of lived saved are worth more than the deaths? That we acknowledge that their will always be a small segment of society that will abuse rights and privileges but understand that the price comes with living in a free country?
We accept this for alcohol. Why are firearms different?

The Constitution explicitly affirms the people's right to keep and bear arms, and forbids this right from being infringed. There is significant historical context regarding the origin of this nation which makes clear why this right is important, and why it is a very bad idea to give any part of it up.

The Constitution makes no similar statement regarding alcohol; and there is no similar history to indicate any reason why we have any need for alcohol. The only mention that the Constitution makes of alcohol is the Eighteenth Amendment, which imposed a nationwide ban on it, and the Twenty-First Amendment, which repealed the Eighteenth.


It's also worth mentioning the impact that each of these things has on society.

Alcohol only causes harm. There is literally, no positive benefit to people consuming alcohol. None. People are made ill by alcohol, people die from alcohol, families and lived are destroyed by alcohol, and there is no positive to offset any part of this. If we could effectively ban alcohol, and if everyone was willing to obey this ban, nobody would be worse for it, and many would be much better for it.

Guns are used to prevent much more crime and death than they are used to perpetrate. The more good people are armed, the less able evil people are to prey on them. You impose bans or restrictions on firearms, and all you accomplish is to cause more crime and violence, because those who engage in crime and violence are enabled to do so with more safety.

 

[Wiseone]

As in just get over it? That the numbers of lived saved are worth more than the deaths? That we acknowledge that their will always be a small segment of society that will abuse rights and privileges but understand that the price comes with living in a free country?
We accept this for alcohol. Why are firearms different?

That's my point, they aren't different. But people don't really accept the true cost of firearms and like to pretend its not a problem.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's my point, they aren't different. But people don't really accept the true cost of firearms and like to pretend its not a problem.

and people like you don't really accept the true benefits of firearms such as all the crimes prevented

 

[MichaelJR]

and people like you don't really accept the true benefits of firearms such as all the crimes prevented

This. Spoken for truth.


The amount of times firearms save lives overwhelm the number of lives lost, exponentially. Not made up numbers, FBI crime-database.

 

[BretJ]

That's my point, they aren't different. But people don't really accept the true cost of firearms and like to pretend its not a problem.

But they are different. Alcohol is far worse and affects a far greater segment of society.
My contention has always been that people accept the cost of alcohol to society because they feel that they drink responsibly. They would never accept restrictions on their freedoms based on the actions of a small number of abusers/irresponsible consumers. It's all about personal responsibility after all.
On the other hand, more people consume alcohol than own firearms. So it is far too easy for them to dismiss the rights and freedoms of firearms owners. Personal responsibility be damned.

 

[TurtleDude]

This. Spoken for truth.


The amount of times firearms save lives overwhelm the number of lives lost, exponentially. Not made up numbers, FBI crime-database.

its been proven time and time again that gun restrictions are far more likely to disarm good people (those who use firearms mainly to deter crimes) then criminals (who don't obey substantive laws in the first place)

 

[LaMidRighter]

I tend to think of "organized crime" as crime willfully organized by a group of people that causes severe hurt to other persons. A protection racket is no worse than a Ponzi Scheme. And organized breaking of the constitution is far worse.

Sure, and there was definitely a component to this that required organization and willful legal violations but legally it didn't meet the definition, rather it was a white collar crime falling under the corporate laws.

 

[joG]

Sure, and there was definitely a component to this that required organization and willful legal violations but legally it didn't meet the definition, rather it was a white collar crime falling under the corporate laws.

I must say that I do not know the exact text for US law. In Germany the law would include white collar crime, but the legal system never chooses to prosecut that way. But there is no doubt that the crimes could so prosecuted.

 

[Phys251]

....to absolutely no one's surprise. But :shrug: there you are.

Well, very few murders are caused by firearms categorized as "assault weapons." By far the number one instrument of choice is handguns.

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, very few murders are caused by firearms categorized as "assault weapons." By far the number one instrument of choice is handguns.

true because concealment is a key requirement for criminals. You walk down the street with a AK style rifle or a M14 battle rifle you are going to attract lots of official attention. Which shows something most of us who are pro rights understand. Leftwing anti gun schemes are NOT designed to decrease crime.

 

[LaMidRighter]

I must say that I do not know the exact text for US law. In Germany the law would include white collar crime, but the legal system never chooses to prosecut that way. But there is no doubt that the crimes could so prosecuted.

Basically, in the U.S. organized crime has to do with associations based on criminal syndicalism; this would be mafia, gang, or other activities organized specifically to commit illegal acts like smuggling, human trafficking, black market sales, etc.

Corporate crimes are committed using organization for the most part, but they have to do with breaking the laws of the U.S., SEC, FTC, etc.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Well, very few murders are caused by firearms categorized as "assault weapons." By far the number one instrument of choice is handguns.

As TD stated it has to do with concealment, most street defensive situations with firearms likewise will be handguns because they are concealable, and like a criminal, an innocent brandishing a firearm in public tends to bring negative attention from some in our society.

 

[joG]

Basically, in the U.S. organized crime has to do with associations based on criminal syndicalism; this would be mafia, gang, or other activities organized specifically to commit illegal acts like smuggling, human trafficking, black market sales, etc.

Corporate crimes are committed using organization for the most part, but they have to do with breaking the laws of the U.S., SEC, FTC, etc.

True. Ofttimes the white collar crook will be breaking securities law. But often also he will be cheating, bribing, poisoning, defrauding or else wise seeking illbegott riches. Very often people die.And he will be doing this within informal groups of likewise nasties. Just like the mafia. It would really surprise me in a number of cases in the past, if the organized crime laws could not have been applied. But I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Phys251]

As TD stated it has to do with concealment, most street defensive situations with firearms likewise will be handguns because they are concealable, and like a criminal, an innocent brandishing a firearm in public tends to bring negative attention from some in our society.

That makes sense, because guns that are less than a foot long are a lot easier to conceal than those that are, say, three feet long. Plus, I imagine that handguns in general are less expensive.

 

[LaMidRighter]

That makes sense, because guns that are less than a foot long are a lot easier to conceal than those that are, say, three feet long. Plus, I imagine that handguns in general are less expensive.

Actually, handguns can be more depending on the model and internals. Everything depends on the bells and whistles much like anything else you would buy. Even towards concealment, not all handguns are made equal in that department, I love the Desert Eagle pistol for it's novelty, but it's the size of an adult forearm so concealment is out the window, and it takes about two seconds to pull due to it's size so it's a tactical nightmare.

EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention is the "junk gun". Most criminal use of guns is dependent on it's disposability, they don't want to use an 800-1100 dollar 1911 replica .45 but rather a cheap .38 or 9mm handgun by hi point or other similarly dirt cheap basics. A 9mm by hi point is about 150$ whereas a similar Glock is going to be 5-900$ depending on model and options.

 

[LaMidRighter]

True. Ofttimes the white collar crook will be breaking securities law. But often also he will be cheating, bribing, poisoning, defrauding or else wise seeking illbegott riches. Very often people die.And he will be doing this within informal groups of likewise nasties. Just like the mafia. It would really surprise me in a number of cases in the past, if the organized crime laws could not have been applied. But I'm not a lawyer.

I just am a bit of a legal buff, don't have any certs. The big thing difference is in the reason for incorporation, legal corporations don't count towards the organized crime numbers, and the mafia likewise doesn't count towards corporate crimes. I do admit though that the lines do blur more often than not.

 

[Phys251]

Actually, handguns can be more depending on the model and internals. Everything depends on the bells and whistles much like anything else you would buy. Even towards concealment, not all handguns are made equal in that department, I love the Desert Eagle pistol for it's novelty, but it's the size of an adult forearm so concealment is out the window, and it takes about two seconds to pull due to it's size so it's a tactical nightmare.

EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention is the "junk gun". Most criminal use of guns is dependent on it's disposability, they don't want to use an 800-1100 dollar 1911 replica .45 but rather a cheap .38 or 9mm handgun by hi point or other similarly dirt cheap basics. A 9mm by hi point is about 150$ whereas a similar Glock is going to be 5-900$ depending on model and options.

Okay. Yeah, I seriously doubt many collectors' items are used as murder weapons.

 

[Linc]

Canada doesn't have gang issues or a drug war that perpetuates the violence. Yes, montreal has a few gangs that speak french and eat crepes, they don't count. Chicago/LA/NYC/etc are a VERY different ballgame.

A far greater "different ballgame" is that states like Kansas have little in common with big cities as for demographics.

The majority of the deaths are police shootings and gang related, all of which are perpetuated by....the drug war. If drugs were legalized tomorrow, I'd take a serious gander that the violence would come to a grinding halt.

Which has very little to do with the OP on restricted CC, unless you want locals to be a militia unto themselves .

 

[MichaelJR]

A far greater "different ballgame" is that states like Kansas have little in common with big cities as for demographics.


Which has very little to do with the OP on restricted CC, unless you want locals to be a militia unto themselves .

I'm fine with local militias. I think it's a great idea, especially if it's out of the gov spectrum.

 

[Linc]

I prefer "targeted martial law" in the cities, where the National Guard and licensed CC and OC back up the local and state police.
Clean up a building, then bring in the back-ups to keep it clean.
Move through the "bad" neighborhoods like the "blob".
Regular city folks would be cheering and giving police "tips" .

I'm fine with local militias. I think it's a great idea, especially if it's out of the gov spectrum.

 

[scatt]

I prefer "targeted martial law" in the cities, where the National Guard and licensed CC and OC back up the local and state police.
Clean up a building, then bring in the back-ups to keep it clean.
Move through the "bad" neighborhoods like the "blob".
Regular city folks would be cheering and giving police "tips" .

The militia is not the state, silly goose.