Resolution 242; 1967 Borders; "illegal" even "Occupied"

[Apocalypse]

Oh and what was the effect of the embargo on Cuba? Did the Cubans suddenly remove Castro from power?

I just gave an example of another place where this has occurred, so Israel is certainly not alone in this.
The effects of the two embargo's are different, as they are aimed at two different targets.

Hroub maintains that the programme as a whole hinges on a two-state solution, referring to territory occupied in 1967 without any mention of liberating the whole of Palestine or destroying Israel, as was the case in the charter

I do not trust the words of a European opinion article to tell me the truth in the region.
You are probably speaking about this:

In early February, 2006, after its victory in the 2006 parliamentary elections, Hamas reiterated that it was giving up suicide attacks and offered Israel a 10-year truce "in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem,"[84] and recognition of Palestinian rights including the "right of return."[85] Mashal added that Hamas was not calling for a final end to armed operations against Israel, and it would not impede other Palestinian groups from carrying out such operations.[86]

Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and terrorist organizations alike are certainly not promoting peace, unlike what some delusional would like you to believe.
The truth is that those terrorists only seek ways to harm Israel in the biggest way.
Of course, their claims can also not be taken in as they ask for the rights of return for the refugees, which is impossible without destroying Israel(Their main objective).

This article offers an alternative approach to the question of legitimacy and complexity in engaging with terrorism. Drawing from research in peace and conflict studies, it analyses how these two factors may in fact be conducive to a nonviolent resolution of conflicts involving terrorist violence. Using the conflicts in Northern Ireland and the southern Philippine region of Mindanao as illustrations, the article argues that the legitimation of `terrorist' groups through talks can be a means to transform a conflict away from violence, while complexity may in fact open up new possibilities for engagement. The article concludes by examining how the naming of a group as `terrorist' can and is often designed to forestall nonviolent responses to terrorism.

`We Don't Negotiate with Terrorists!': Legitimacy and Complexity in Terrorist Conflicts -- Toros 39 (4): 407 -- Security Dialogue

I do not agree with what this article is promoting.
It's the result of a deep lack of knowledge and experience with Islamic terrorism and terrorism in general.
Peace would be reached when the PLO and Israel would reach a common ground, Hamas would just keep partaking in murderous acts and therefore Israel would go on to operations way more devastating than Cast Lead in order to bring justice on the terrorists.

I think it was quite clear: on the one hand, yes, the settlers had to leave, so yes, it seems that they're not so powerful

That's all I needed to know.

 

[bub]

I just gave an example of another place where this has occurred, so Israel is certainly not alone in this.
The effects of the two embargo's are different, as they are aimed at two different targets.

Indeed, there are many differences, but one common point too: the embargo isn't enough to provoke any change. At best it makes Israel look evil, which is bad for both the reaching of peace and Israel's foreign relations.

I do not trust the words of a European opinion article to tell me the truth in the region.

the part I quoted was from Khaled Hroub, a Palestinian

You are probably speaking about this:
Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and terrorist organizations alike are certainly not promoting peace, unlike what some delusional would like you to believe.
The truth is that those terrorists only seek ways to harm Israel in the biggest way.
Of course, their claims can also not be taken in as they ask for the rights of return for the refugees, which is impossible without destroying Israel(Their main objective).

It's never good to amalgam everything (like you did with "Arabs" and their DNA: there isn't a single "Arab race", there are thousands of smaller groups, some of them being extremely close to Jewish people). Hamas is not AQ or Hezbollah. AQ is a group of fundamentalists who want to impose the Shariah worldwide. Hamas doesn't want that. Hamas was probably very religious and fanatical at the begining, but as the article says, they've evolved, and are now increasingly secular and now accept the 2 states solution. Read the article!

I do not agree with what this article is promoting.
It's the result of a deep lack of knowledge and experience with Islamic terrorism and terrorism in general.
Peace would be reached when the PLO and Israel would reach a common ground, Hamas would just keep partaking in murderous acts and therefore Israel would go on to operations way more devastating than Cast Lead in order to bring justice on the terrorists.

There is a contradiction in your argument: you refuse to negociate with the Hamas because they are terrorists, but you negociate with the Fatah!

As for negociating with terrorists in general, don't forget the only objective: to reach Peace. Since it is impossible to destroy the Hamas, you HAVE to negociate with them!

Look at how other coutries have done to get rid of terrorists! Look at Northern Ireland! They've tried to destroy the IRA during decades, and it has not worked! The conflict ended when they started negociating!

That's all I needed to know.

It's never good to ignore all the facts that are contrary to your beliefs when you want to be objective

 

[Gardener]

We disagree about this, but let's say it's their goal. Would you agree that it is as legitimate as Irgun's goal in the 40's?

So let's see if I have this right. If I were only to pretend the Palestinian goal was something different from what it is, and if I were only to pretend that the Palestinian methods for achieving that goal were different than they have been, would such a goal be legitimate?

You know, it's tough to really get my head around that one because I would feel so completely dishonest were I to do what you ask. I simply do not believe in the creation of a fantasies to justify realities. The Palestinians have been murdering innocent Jews for many decades rather than fighting a strategic guerilla war, and their goal is not to live along side Israel, but to destroy it. I'm just not capable of the dishonesty that would be required for me to indulge in the sort of moral equivalence you ask.

 

[bub]

So let's see if I have this right. If I were only to pretend the Palestinian goal was something different from what it is, and if I were only to pretend that the Palestinian methods for achieving that goal were different than they have been, would such a goal be legitimate?

You know, it's tough to really get my head around that one because I would feel so completely dishonest were I to do what you ask. I simply do not believe in the creation of a fantasies to justify realities. The Palestinians have been murdering innocent Jews for many decades rather than fighting a strategic guerilla war, and their goal is not to live along side Israel, but to destroy it. I'm just not capable of the dishonesty that would be required for me to indulge in the sort of moral equivalence you ask.

In short you believe that it's not legitimate to create a sovereign Palestinian state next to Israel? In other posts, I believed you were defending the 3 states solution!

 

[Gardener]

In short you believe that it's not legitimate to create a sovereign Palestinian state next to Israel? In other posts, I believed you were defending the 3 states solution!

Yes, I believe in the creation of a Palestinian state -- or two as you mentioned.

That does not mean I view the Palestinian tactics or actual desires as morally equivalent to the Israelis. You are asking me to indulge in a dishonest fantasy here, which I refuse to do. You might as well ask me what I think of a dog if it were really a cat.

What validates the claim for Palestinian statehood is that even though there was really no such thing as a Palestinian people a hundred years ago, there is now, and that distinct peoples should be afforded self determination, That does NOT mean that their desires to destroy another people are valid, and it does NOT mean that their choice of murder as a political tool is valid.

 

[bub]

Yes, I believe in the creation of a Palestinian state -- or two as you mentioned.

good!

That does not mean I view the Palestinian tactics or actual desires as morally equivalent to the Israelis. You are asking me to indulge in a dishonest fantasy here, which I refuse to do. You might as well ask me what I think of a dog if it were really a cat.

Are you talking about the difference between Irgun and Hamas? Well, as you said, the Palestinian terrorists probably killed many more people, but it's simply because they've been fighting since 1921! As for the tactics, a car bomb is a car bomb!

What validates the claim for Palestinian statehood is that even though there was really no such thing as a Palestinian people a hundred years ago, there is now, and that distinct peoples should be afforded self determination, That does NOT mean that their desires to destroy another people are valid, and it does NOT mean that their choice of murder as a political tool is valid.

I totally agree with that

 

[Klipkap]

Terrorism is the most salient elemint of this "struggle" and has remained a constant since 1921, yes.

Since when does protection of what is yours, ancestrally, equate to terrorism?
In 1915 via the MCMahon correspondence the British promised independence to the Arabs, excluding bits of what is now Turkey and Lebanon.

Two years later, via the Balfour declaration the Brits gave support to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, but with a SERIOUS qualification, so long as the civil rights of the other (indigenous) inhabitants were not impinged on (or words to that effect).

From that point on the Brits tried to juggle their two contradictory pledges. And they failed miserably. They allowed Jewish immigration in the face of direct opposition from the Palestinaian Arabs, and in doing so they reneged on their own Balfour (and San Remo) pacts. There is no debate about this, at all.

Why are so many surprised that the ancestral occupiers of Palestine were thoroughly ticked off by such acts, a fury that continues to this day? And in what way did their actions "from 1921 onwards" reflect an untenable position?

Well done Brits. You screwed it up good and solid by pursuing your own interests, and then passed the monkey in 1947. YAY to the crumbling empire - you showed your true abilities.

 

[Klipkap]

Why would any thinking person condemn both equally when the incidence, magnitude and length of commitment to the terrorism are so extremely unequal?

I agree!!
The Zionists used extremely unfair tactics in twisting the arm of the British to allow them to increasingly occupy a land that had not been theirs for 2500 years, other than for a brief blip 2000 years ago.

The manipulative tactics of the Zionists to undermine the rights of the ancestral occupiers of 'Palestine' is a form of power-base terrorism. The ancestral occupiers of the southern Levant have been freedom fighters since the early 1900's.

I am glad that Gardener agrees.

 

[mbig]

Since when does protection of what is yours, ancestrally, equate to terrorism?

I don't believe anyone else here ever tried Blanket defense of PLO/HAMAS/etc terrorism/targeting civilians as you have just done.
Apparently all bets are on "in defense of ancestral lands"!

Of course, Whose "ancestral land" is also a question.

In 1915 via the MCMahon correspondence the British promised independence to the Arabs, excluding bits of what is now Turkey and Lebanon.

Two years later, via the Balfour declaration the Brits gave support to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, but with a SERIOUS qualification, so long as the civil rights of the other (indigenous) inhabitants were not impinged on (or words to that effect).

From that point on the Brits tried to juggle their two contradictory pledges. And they failed miserably.

Actually they only failed because of Arab Intransigence/Greed.
Both peoples Knew the other had promises made.
The Jews were willing to share.. arabs not.
only NOW, it seems the palestinians/arabs/whoever this non-homogenous/ancestral mix is currently, want that very British "mistake".

They allowed Jewish immigration in the face of direct opposition from the Palestinaian Arabs,...

The Brits went back and forth on allowing Jewish Immigration; mostly disallowing it. (and barring it completely from the assumed future 'palestinian' state of Jordan)
While allowing Unbridled assorted Arab penetration to the presumed future home of the Jews 'palestine', those all-over-the-place arabs to then become "ancestral" 'palestinians'.

 

[creation]

I don't believe anyone else here ever tried Blanket defense of PLO/HAMAS/etc terrorism/targeting civilians as you have just done.
Apparently all bets are on "in defense of ancestral lands"!

Actually instead people like Gardener try to mount a blanket attack on Palestinians as having conducted only terrorism for the life of their political struggle.
A deplorable act of deception.

In truth the acts of terrorism are outweighed by countless peaceful protests and demonstrations that go on all the time.

Of course, Whose "ancestral land" is also a question

.

If you can trace exactly who of your relatives have been living on say, this farm or that house for so many generations then its safe to say that its your ancestral lands be you Jew or Arab.

If you cant manage that, then its probably not.

Actually they only failed because of Arab Intransigence/Greed.
Both peoples Knew the other had promises made.
The Jews were willing to share.. arabs not.
only NOW, it seems the palestinians/arabs/whoever this non-homogenous/ancestral mix is currently, want that very British "mistake".

No nation or people has ever given up their lands to share with a minority of mostly immigrants.

The Brits went back and forth on allowing Jewish Immigration; mostly disallowing it. (and barring it completely from the assumed future 'palestinian' state of Jordan)
While allowing Unbridled assorted Arab penetration to the presumed future home of the Jews 'palestine', those all-over-the-place arabs to then become "ancestral" 'palestinians'.

Arab population growth follows roughly that expected as far as Im aware.

 

[Apocalypse]

Actually instead people like Gardener try to mount a blanket attack on Palestinians as having conducted only terrorism for the life of their political struggle.
A deplorable act of deception.

In truth the acts of terrorism are outweighed by countless peaceful protests and demonstrations that go on all the time.

Only if Molotov and rock throwing can be seen as peaceful protests.
Otherwise it's a deplorable act of deception to paint it so.

No nation or people has ever given up their lands to share with a minority of mostly immigrants

Depends what you look at as immigrants.
We could say that the entire of the Palestinian Arabs have immigrated to the land at some point at time, unlike the Jewish people who have actually originated there, being the place of birth of Judah the son of Jacob and the beginning of the Judah Tribe, and also being the historical location of the Judah Kingdom.
While Arabs, quite evidently, have originated in the Arab Peninsula, and are not therefore the natives of the land.

And yet, Israel and the Jewish people have had no problem to recognize the Palestinians claim to the land and invites them to share the land with them, and Israel still does so until this same day.
It's a fight between those who suggest the two-states solution and those who promote the one Islamic state solution.

 

[mbig]

Actually instead people like Gardener try to mount a blanket attack on Palestinians as having conducted only terrorism for the life of their political struggle....

In truth the acts of terrorism are outweighed by countless peaceful protests and demonstrations that go on all the time.

Palestinians are Not famous and rarely conduct Ghandi-like demonstrations.. rather terror IS their Moniker.
Did you miss the last 40+ years?
Gardener is 100% Correct.
My 30 days sig just ended a week ago.

Where Hatred Trumps Bread
What does the Palestinian nation offer the world?
Featured Article - WSJ.com

No nation or people has ever given up their lands to share with a minority of mostly immigrants.

And WHAT "Nation" was that? :^)
There's Never been a self-governing Nation on that land since it was called..... 'Israel' the first time.... TO 'give up'!
Most 'recently', it was three Sanjaks/provinces for 400 years under the Ottomans before the British took over.

Arab population growth follows roughly that expected as far as Im aware.

Here's some New Awareness then and backing for my claim.

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than Doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it Quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Zionist Impact on Palestine

 

[Gardener]

Since when does protection of what is yours, ancestrally, equate to terrorism?

Since when is the murder of innocent people considered "protection of what is yours"?

You can certainly play these incredibly dishonest semantic games all you want, but murdering olympic athletes, blowing up discos filled with teenagers and slicing the throats of Yeshiva boys are acts of terrorism.

 

[Gardener]

I agree!!
The Zionists used extremely unfair tactics in twisting the arm of the British to allow them to increasingly occupy a land that had not been theirs for 2500 years, other than for a brief blip 2000 years ago.

The manipulative tactics of the Zionists to undermine the rights of the ancestral occupiers of 'Palestine' is a form of power-base terrorism. The ancestral occupiers of the southern Levant have been freedom fighters since the early 1900's.

I am glad that Gardener agrees.

I certainly do not agree that wanton acts of mass murder makes one a "freedom fighter".

It just makes one a mass murderer.

 

[Apocalypse]

I certainly do not agree that wanton acts of mass murder makes one a "freedom fighter".

It just makes one a mass murderer.

I believe he meant to "Freedom Fighter" as to "one who fights freedom".

 

[Gardener]

I believe he meant to "Freedom Fighter" as to "one who fights freedom".

In this case, it certainly does.



Did I mention to you, though, that Charles Manson is not a murderer? He is a philanthropist.

 

[creation]

Palestinians are Not famous and rarely conduct Ghandi-like demonstrations.. rather terror IS their Moniker.
Did you miss the last 40+ years?
Gardener is 100% Correct.
My 30 days sig just ended a week ago.

Thank you.

On the contrary, while it is not Ghandhi like, it is normal protest such as occurs all the time across the world and it goes on often.

I did not miss the last 40 years.

Painting it as all terrorism is just the tired old racist demonization not even most Israelis would try and foist on the thinking public.

Where Hatred Trumps Bread
What does the Palestinian nation offer the world?
Featured Article - WSJ.com

Thank you. I do like a good laugh from an obvious ignorant bigot such as this columnist.

And WHAT "Nation" was that? :^)
There's Never been a self-governing Nation on that land since it was called..... 'Israel' the first time.... TO 'give up'!
Most 'recently', it was three Sanjaks/provinces for 400 years under the Ottomans before the British took over.

Conveniently you missed out the people bit. Apparently the forming of political parties, of protests, rebellions and general strikes is no consequence. All that matters is what the imperial masters decide and the guns and bullets that back this up - a more striking argument for violence one could not find.

Here's some New Awareness then and backing for my claim.

Thank you for such an obvious demonstration. All the link can manage in support of its claims is its own claim that no one disagrees with it. Not to mention that site actually supports Joan Peter's work!

In any case, here's a real linked source;

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

 

[mbig]

Thank you.

On the contrary, while it is not Ghandhi like, it is normal protest such as occurs all the time across the world and it goes on often.

I did not miss the last 40 years.

Painting it as all terrorism is just the tired old racist demonization not even most Israelis would try and foist on the thinking public.

LOL
NO rebuttal at all
Rather.. you finally agreed and your last post was completely Untrue.

Thank you. I do like a good laugh from an obvious Ignorant Bigot such as this columnist.

Ouch!.. it just keeps getting better!
Cynthia Ozick is one of America's great writers, Four time winner of the O'Henry Prize (Best Short Story)
Take your own pick. Mebbe you can find some dirt.. but
[ame="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4EGLC_enUS336US336&q=cynthia+ozick"]403 Forbidden[/ame]

Conveniently you missed out the people bit. Apparently the forming of political parties, of protests, rebellions and general strikes is no consequence. All that matters is what the imperial masters decide and the guns and bullets that back this up - a more striking argument for violence one could not find.

IOW, no rebuttal here Either! No "Nation" giving up anything!
Yikes.

Thank you for such an obvious demonstration. All the link can manage in support of its claims is its own claim that no one disagrees with it. Not to mention that site actually supports Joan Peter's work!

In any case, here's a real linked source;

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

You're Kidding right?
This is not only NO rebutttal, it Backs MY Claim.

YOUR Link!

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians.

Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved Tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times.

Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.

That's just what I said!
Thanks for the link. I may use it again.
Did you think I wouldn't read it... or didn't you?
Desperate googling blowback.

What a post!!!!! My "thanks" was a must.
-

 

[Gardener]

Rererring to terrorism as terrorism makes one a racist, now, does it?

Go "freedom fighters" :roll:

 

[creation]

LOL
NO rebuttal at all
Rather.. you finally agreed and your last post was completely Untrue.

Thank you.

However, you seem keen to obtain a rebuttal which you already have.

You say 'its all terrorism'

then I say 'its not'. We both know there are numerous pictures and references for protest in the West bank and gaza strip. So why do you even bother?

Ouch!.. it just keeps getting better!
Cynthia Ozick is one of America's great writers, Four time winner of the O'Henry Prize (Best Short Story)
Take your own pick. Mebbe you can find some dirt.. but
403 Forbidden

Im afraid it doesnt keep getting better.

Im sure Cynthia is completely dirt free. However, it is the use of this writer that is so disturbing for your argument.
After all, examining her life and work its clear that one would have to work hard for a less completely biased observer of nations and peoples other than her own and for more one sided novelist when it comes to pronouncements on world affairs.

The question then left, why would you cite this woman?

IOW, no rebuttal here Either! No "Nation" giving up anything!
Yikes.

As explained, you have your rebuttal. It is contained in the simple fact that ignored the word people to focus on the word nation to make your point. It is the most obvious ruse, truly unworthy of you.

You're Kidding right?
This is not only NO rebutttal, it Backs MY Claim.

YOUR Link!


That's just what I said!
Thanks for the link. I may use it again.
Did you think I wouldn't read it... or didn't you?
Desperate googling blowback.
What a post!!!!! My "thanks" was a must.

Youre welcome! I just thought you would benefit from seeing a decent source for a change.

On a more negative note for your line of attack,

You have bolded the line the zionist immigration didnt displace arabs. This is not something I have contended thus you are presenting a strawman argument which you hope to gain credit by dismantling.

We can both see from this source that your accusations that arabs were immigrating in large numbers to Palestine is unfounded.

There are some interesting accompanying elements to the story however ;

5. It is not possible to estimate illegal Arab immigration directly, but apparently there was some immigration. The total Arab immigration to Palestine recorded or estimated by the Mandate government was in the neighborhood of 45,000. Illegal immigration that was not recorded would not register in the final population figures for 1945, because those figures were estimates. We simply do not know how many Arabs and Jews there were in Palestine before the declaration of the state of Israel. It is probable that there were about 100,000 Arab immigrants into Palestine. An unknown number may also have migrated internally, from the Arab areas in the West Bank that were formerly the centers of commercial activity and population to the coastal plain and Galilee. The Arab population increase of areas with large Jewish settlement was about 10% greater than that in areas without Jewish settlement. This effect cannot be totally separated from urbanization. A population of approximately 103,000 Bedouin (1922 estimate reported in the 1927-1929 reports of the Mandatory) may have been excluded or included in different population figures as the authorities and demographers saw fit. There is no way to know how many of these Bedouin made a permanent home in Palestine or how many became part of the city population in the course of industrialization between 1922 and 1948. However, the evidence indicates that they were in fact included in all the official population figures. This is shown by the fact that estimates of Muslim population that explicitly do not include Bedouin were significantly lower than the census figures, and by the fact that population growth is consistent with figures for natural increase if we assume that the Bedouin were included.

This last part in bold obviously supports my contention about natural growth though of course I can concede that some, though comparatively smaller Arab immigration did occur.

However, most damningly for you it seems is that, "The major conclusion is "The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times". Yet you have presumed to tell us otherwise. It must be asked, given that you are no doubt well read and intelligent - why would you do this?

At this point I will assume your contention that the Jewish population was the source of Palestinian prosperity, which you use Arab population increases next to Jewish areas as the fundament of your case. It is of course curious why the obvious influence of the British, and British war contracts is not considered.

 

[mbig]

Thank you.

However, you seem keen to obtain a rebuttal which you already have.
You say 'its all terrorism'

then I say 'its not'. We both know there are numerous pictures and references for protest in the West bank and gaza strip. So why do you even bother?

NO, I say by and large it's Terrorism and they are certainly famous for that as their main method.
Indeed we are in year 9 of an intifada/WAR they started.. barely ever hitting nor targeting a Military installation.
I recommend Ozick again.
From Munich Olympics to almost any day you pick.. Terrorism.

Your post is a mere semantic evasion/game to evade admitting the truth presented.

Im afraid it doesnt keep getting better.

Im sure Cynthia is completely dirt free. However, it is the use of this writer that is so disturbing for your argument.
After all, examining her life and work its clear that one would have to work hard for a less completely biased observer of nations and peoples other than her own and for more one sided novelist when it comes to pronouncements on world affairs.

The question then left, why would you cite this woman?

I cited her for her brilliant historical perspective of the conflict that I think sums it up better than any single article I've ever read-- and that would be Tens of Thousands of them.
You said she was "an Obviously Ignorant Bigot".. which couldn't be further from the truth, and arguably a bait - or so bad a misread that debate would be impossible.

What's "obvious" to anyone is that she is familiar with the conflict and a Brilliant literary talent... NOT an "obviously ignorant Bigot".

I must say, I think I know your game here now.
Make Outrageous statements as the above.. and then insist on everyone be Polite/following the rules after your 'polite' Incitement/Flaming.

As explained, you have your rebuttal. It is contained in the simple fact that ignored the word people to focus on the word nation to make your point. It is the most obvious ruse, truly unworthy of you.

Please take note board.. yet more NON-factual rebuttal in response to My Factual ones.

Youre welcome! I just thought you would benefit from seeing a decent source for a change.

On a more negative note for your line of attack,

You have bolded the line the zionist immigration didnt displace arabs. This is not something I have contended thus you are presenting a strawman argument which you hope to gain credit by dismantling.

We can both see from this source that your accusations that arabs were immigrating in large numbers to Palestine is unfounded.

No.
What we can see is another of your falsehoods being glaringly exposed.
It was your allegation that that Arabs were being crowded out that was rebutted in that Link. That's what that My original link and yours that Unwittingly Agreed with mine showed.
BOTH links also stating Arab population did indeed immigrate/increase far more to where the Jews settled for the economic opportunity they presented.
Amazing it was too.
Don't think any other mb opponent ever made such an incredible Gaffe.

At this point I will assume your contention that the Jewish population was the source of Palestinian prosperity, which you use Arab population increases next to Jewish areas as the fundament of your case. It is of course curious why the obvious influence of the British, and British war contracts is not considered.

Poor deduction based on the facts presented and still true to this day-- certainly up til the Intifada.. Arabs/'palestinians' Flock to the Zionists/Israel for work.
And In fact, let me Futher state, 'Palestine' had an unprecedeented boom under Israeli 'occupation' from 1967-2000 beyond the pre-1948 debate you attempted and still try and fudge your way thru now with gratuitous last-wording replies.
-

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Actually instead people like Gardener try to mount a blanket attack on Palestinians as having conducted only terrorism for the life of their political struggle.
A deplorable act of deception.

I believe he meant to "Freedom Fighter" as to "one who fights freedom".

Moderator's Warning:

Comments such as these are the the beginnings of baiting in this thread. It will NOT be tolerated. Any further baits will net you a thread ban and perhaps more.

 

[creation]

NO, I say by and large it's Terrorism and they are certainly famous for that as their main method.
Indeed we are in year 9 of an intifada/WAR they started.. barely ever hitting nor targeting a Military installation.
I recommend Ozick again.
From Munich Olympics to almost any day you pick.. Terrorism.

Your post is a mere semantic evasion/game to evade admitting the truth presented.

By and large? What does that even mean?

Why do you tell us what they are famous for? This attack is surely the most semantic game. After all, if one wanted to add up the amounts of all the acts of violence, terrorism, stone throwing, civil disobedience and protest then the terrorism incidents would certainly not come anywhere near the top - even just for the simple reason that acts of terror take time and planning to mount!

As for 'barely even hitting the military', the IDF has been in continual confrontation of both protest and riot - none of which are terror. This is all obvious stuff which even most Israelis would agree - so why do you persist when this point is so obviously unfounded?

I cited her for her brilliant historical perspective of the conflict that I think sums it up better than any single article I've ever read-- and that would be Tens of Thousands of them.
You said she was "an Obviously Ignorant Bigot".. which couldn't be further from the truth, and arguably a bait - or so bad a misread that debate would be impossible.

What's "obvious" to anyone is that she is familiar with the conflict and a Brilliant literary talent... NOT an "obviously ignorant Bigot".

Im sorry mbig, but bigoted and ignorant is a most apt description.

This is the same woman who decried in her 1974 essay that "All the World Wants the Jews Dead". Then as you point out in her latest rambling, that " They have reared children unlike any other children, removed from ordinary norms and behaviors. " her obvious skill with words merely allows her to present overblown rhetoric. The pity is that you seem to think it adds more than racist bile to the debate.

Moreover, who cares about how you want to 'sum up' your view point? Please, if you are going to cite someone, then cite a historian, and a more reasonable one at that. Even just demographer will do.

I must say, I think I know your game here now.
Make Outrageous statements as the above.. and then insist on everyone be Polite/following the rules after your 'polite' Incitement/Flaming.

I intend no such incitement or flaming. If you think it is so, then please I urge you to bring this my attentin and above all make that I am reported to the moderators.

Please take note board.. yet more NON-factual rebuttal in response to My Factual ones.

Are you even going to accurately address the point made? About the people of Arab Palestine?

No.
What we can see is another of your falsehoods being glaringly exposed.
It was your allegation that that Arabs were being crowded out that was rebutted in that Link. That's what that My original link and yours that Unwittingly Agreed with mine showed.

Arabs were crowded out? Can you point where I have stated this? I fear you may be projecting here.

BOTH links also stating Arab population did indeed immigrate/increase far more to where the Jews settled for the economic opportunity they presented.
Amazing it was too.
Don't think any other mb opponent ever made such an incredible Gaffe.

Yet as you can see overall Arab population increases is roughly in line with natural growth and whats more the Jews settled in areas not only such as Tel Aviv, which they built from scratch, but the original urban areas of Palestine which benefitted from British governance, for example the british war contracts.

Moreover the orginal contention of yours is that the Jews made the desert bloom, so why were Isrealis so few in number in agriculture ni palestine? Not to mention the fact that Jewish land holdings were dwarfed by Arab holdings.

Poor deduction based on the facts presented and still true to this day-- certainly up til the Intifada.. Arabs/'palestinians' Flock to the Zionists/Israel for work.
And In fact, let me Futher state, 'Palestine' had an unprecedeented boom under Israeli 'occupation' from 1967-2000 beyond the pre-1948 debate you attempted and still try and fudge your way thru now with gratuitous last-wording replies.

:lol: Of course they do so flock! They are refugees under occupation, having recently lost whatever property they had! The Isrealis having gained it instead, what else would one expect but for the refugees to look for any work they could. In fact you should thank them for helping to build Israel.

What by the way am I trying to fudge?

 

[Gardener]

By and large? What does that even mean?

Why do you tell us what they are famous for? This attack is surely the most semantic game. After all, if one wanted to add up the amounts of all the acts of violence, terrorism, stone throwing, civil disobedience and protest then the terrorism incidents would certainly not come anywhere near the top - even just for the simple reason that acts of terror take time and planning to mount!

THese are just the incidences between 1952 and 1966 (chosen because they occured before the six day way and so clearly prove that the desire to mass murder Jews has nothing to do with the so called "occupation".

Let in not be said that FACTS can ever get in the way of a one sided point of view, however.



Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.
Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.
June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in a shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.
June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.
June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.
June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.
Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. No one was hurt.
Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Ma'ale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.
Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists attacked and killed 2 hikers in the Judean Desert.
Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.
Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house. Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev. There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.
Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.
Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.
Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.
Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.
Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.
Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.
Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.
Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.
Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.
Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.
May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.
May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.
June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.
Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.
Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.
Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.
Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in an ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.
Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.
May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.
Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attaché in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.
Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.
Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.
Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.
Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.
Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.
Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.
Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.
July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.
Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.
Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.
July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

 

[Klipkap]

Since when is the murder of innocent people considered "protection of what is yours"?

You can certainly play these incredibly dishonest semantic games all you want, but murdering olympic athletes, blowing up discos filled with teenagers and slicing the throats of Yeshiva boys are acts of terrorism.

The kill rate in December/January was 1431 to 3.
You may play these dishonest semantic games as much as you want to and yell "TERRORIST!!" from dusk to dawn, but it is slowly being recognised throughout the world that something just doesn't square up between your examples of discos and those truly apalling statistics - 1431 to 3.

Tell me Gardener, how many Israelis have been killed in discos in the past 18 months, and then let us compare the number to 1431. Hey, let's be generous, you can also add to that the number of Olympic athletes killed, and Yeshiva boys with their throats cut, and you know what, let us even expand the time frame to 5 years in and arounfd Gaza. Then we will compare. That will be the proof of your semantic pudding. Because it in fact has nothing to do with semantics, but with statistics. Time to accept that.

I thought the Israelis were the good guys for many decades. Then someone showed me the numbers.