Republians Want Taxes Increase, Just Not for the Rich

[TurtleDude]

The income tax and the death tax are the two federal taxes that congress uses to gain power and to pit groups of tax payers against each other. You never hear about politicians talking about say the excise tax on guns or spirits or even the gasoline tax like they talk about the death tax and income tax

The middle class are not "more impacted" and they pay far less than their share of the income and of estates passed upon death

 

[mertex]

but that is a complete lie.

It's a lie that the middle-class already pays too much? Ha,ha, sounds like another Perry quote - "Middle-class Americans don't pay enough taxes"!

Anyway, what the Republicans want to let expire is not an "income" but "payroll" tax, and it is a fact that the poor and middle-class pay most of the payroll taxes.

The top 5% pay more of the income tax than the other 95% combined. So how can you possibly say that the middle class (no matter how you define them be it the second, third, and fourth quintile or the more expansive 80% that lie between the bottom 10% and the top 10%)

That makes sense, the more you make the more you should pay, right? But, why at a lower rate?

To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html


3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.

The Internal Revenue Service issues an annual report on the 400 highest income-tax payers. In 1961, there were 398 taxpayers who made $1 million or more, so I compared their income tax burdens from that year to 2007.

Despite skyrocketing incomes, the federal tax burden on the richest 400 has been slashed, thanks to a variety of loopholes, allowable deductions and other tools. The actual share of their income paid in taxes, according to the IRS, is 16.6 percent. Adding payroll taxes barely nudges that number.

Compare that to the vast majority of Americans, whose share of their income going to federal taxes increased from 13.1 percent in 1961 to 22.5 percent in 2007.

(By the way, during seven of the eight George W. Bush years, the IRS report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy that the Obama administration overturned almost instantly after his inauguration.)

9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes

 

[TurtleDude]

the top one percent pay a higher share of the income tax burden now than at any time in the last 70 years.

if you want to whine about the top 400 taxpayers fine--but don't use them to justify tax hikes on the several million in the top 2 percent

 

[TurtleDude]

Taxes: Who Pays? | U.S. Chamber Magazine


Some uninformed people still claim that the tax code is not progressive when one adds in other types of taxes such as payroll and excise taxes. The data show that even when all taxes are included, the system is still very progressive. This is remarkable, considering the fact that these figures include Social Security taxes, which fall more heavily on the middle and lower income classes because a higher percentage of their wages are covered by payroll taxes.
The data show that the top 1% of all households paid 28.1% of total federal tax liabilities. Moreover, this percentage of taxes paid has grown consistently over the years. The top 20% paid 68.9% of total federal taxes. The next quintile paid 16.5%.
The middle quintile paid only 9.2% of federal taxes in 2007. This was a lower tax bite than they experienced in 2000 and has consistently declined since 1979. The second quintile paid 4.4%, while the lowest quintile paid only 0.8%. Although this is a bit more than their share of income taxes, the system is still very progressive.

 

[winston53660]

That makes sense, the more you make the more you should pay, right? But, why at a lower rate?

TD's wet dream would be a dollar per dollar tax. Say Preparation H for example. Everybody pays the same price at the store. TD feels this about taxes as well IMHO.

 

[Guy Incognito]

One of the few times I'll defend the Republicans. Apart from a few oddball quotes, I don't see any evidence that this is part of the Republican platform.

The notion that the lower fifty percent don't pay any taxes is usually used to back up the notion that the rich are taxed too much, not that they want to tax the poor more. To take the stump speeches of a few tea partiers at face value is ill advised.

 

[mertex]

the top one percent pay a higher share of the income tax burden now than at any time in the last 70 years.

I noticed you didn't address my statement - why at a lower rate? Why do you feel it is okay for the uber wealthy to pay at a lower rate?
But that aside, income tax is not the bulk of all revenue, and in that respect the top 1% do not pay the higher share of tax, so enough of the BS.

The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.
This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”
The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.
It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.
Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.<
9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes

if you want to whine about the top 400 taxpayers fine--but don't use them to justify tax hikes on the several million in the top 2 percent

Don't they pay at a lower rate, too? But didn't Republicans in Congress pledge to Nordquist they wouldn't raise taxes? Why is this tax hike okay?Because the Republican party is the party of the rich - plain and simple! So, if you are not rich - quit acting like the chickens that root for Col Sanders!

 

[TurtleDude]

I noticed you didn't address my statement - why at a lower rate? Why do you feel it is okay for the uber wealthy to pay at a lower rate?
But that aside, income tax is not the bulk of all revenue, and in that respect the top 1% do not pay the higher share of tax, so enough of the BS.

The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.
This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”
The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.
It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.
Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.<
9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes


Don't they pay at a lower rate, too? But didn't Republicans in Congress pledge to Nordquist they wouldn't raise taxes? Why is this tax hike okay?Because the Republican party is the party of the rich - plain and simple! So, if you are not rich - quit acting like the chickens that root for Col Sanders!

wrong you are

I will repost this for your edification
Some uninformed people still claim that the tax code is not progressive when one adds in other types of taxes such as payroll and excise taxes. The data show that even when all taxes are included, the system is still very progressive. This is remarkable, considering the fact that these figures include Social Security taxes, which fall more heavily on the middle and lower income classes because a higher percentage of their wages are covered by payroll taxes.
The data show that the top 1% of all households paid 28.1% of total federal tax liabilities. Moreover, this percentage of taxes paid has grown consistently over the years. The top 20% paid 68.9% of total federal taxes.

 

[mertex]

wrong you are

I will repost this for your edification
Some uninformed people still claim that the tax code is not progressive when one adds in other types of taxes such as payroll and excise taxes. The data show that even when all taxes are included, the system is still very progressive. This is remarkable, considering the fact that these figures include Social Security taxes, which fall more heavily on the middle and lower income classes because a higher percentage of their wages are covered by payroll taxes.
The data show that the top 1% of all households paid 28.1% of total federal tax liabilities. Moreover, this percentage of taxes paid has grown consistently over the years. The top 20% paid 68.9% of total federal taxes.

You keep posting your BS, but you are not addressing the statement - which is not unusual for you, as others have pointed out.

Are you saying that the uber wealthy do not pay at a lower rate?

Skip all the BS and answer that question.

 

[TurtleDude]

You keep posting your BS, but you are not addressing the statement - which is not unusual for you, as others have pointed out.

Are you saying that the uber wealthy do not pay at a lower rate?

Skip all the BS and answer that question.

the uber wealthy pay the highest rates on like income.

but we aren't talking about the uber wealthy-we are talking about the top 2% whom you libs want to tax more.

Do you know what proves that government benefits the poor and middle class more than the rich?

the fact that people like you want more government. Obama conceded that point in one of his speeches a few weeks ago. HE said all citizens have to sacrifice. The rich will sacrifice by paying more taxes. everyone else presumably would sacrifice by having government CUT.

smart people realize Obama was saying the rich don't sacrifice when government is cut

 

[mertex]

the uber wealthy pay the highest rates on like income.

That is BS. I've already shown you how very few of the uber wealthy pay the full rate - most pay at 17% - and their income has gone up while their % of income tax paid has gone down.

but we aren't talking about the uber wealthy-we are talking about the top 2% whom you libs want to tax more.

Those 2% would pay the same tax as those who make less than $250k on that amount earned below $250k.

Do you know what proves that government benefits the poor and middle class more than the rich?

the fact that people like you want more government.

The rich may not want more government programs that help the poor, but they also don't want higher taxes. And, it is a myth that Republicans want less government, they just want more of their type of government - take away all programs that help the poor, but keep all the tax cuts for the rich and all the things that benefit the rich. You aren't fooling anyone.

Obama conceded that point in one of his speeches a few weeks ago. HE said all citizens have to sacrifice. The rich will sacrifice by paying more taxes. everyone else presumably would sacrifice by having government CUT.

Yes Obama is willing to compromise and have everyone sacrifice, but the Republicans don't want the rich to sacrifice. They were willing to put the country into the toilet in order to save the tax cuts for the rich.

smart people realize Obama was saying the rich don't sacrifice when government is cut

Of course the rich don't sacrifice when SS is cut, or Medicare or Medicaid. They don't use it, don't need it. But talk about eliminating the tax cuts and the entire Republican party comes undone.

 

[TurtleDude]

YOu really don't read well. I said the uber wealthy pay the top rate on LIKE income

do you not understand that earned income, dividend income and long term capital gains income are all different. Your blather is based on your not understanding that the uber wealthy have mainly income from sources other than SALARY income and while they pay the TOP rate on salary income, and the TOP rate on Dividend income and the TOP rate on LTCG income because LTCG is taxed LOWER than Earned income they have a lower rate than those who make over 150K in salary and have no measurable investment income.

if everyone else sacrifices merely by having LESS Government why cannot the rich sacrifice the same way? BECAUSE THE RICH DO NOT BENEFIT FROM most of the government programs as much as everyone else

 

[haymarket]

The income tax and the death tax are the two federal taxes that congress uses to gain power and to pit groups of tax payers against each other. You never hear about politicians talking about say the excise tax on guns or spirits or even the gasoline tax like they talk about the death tax and income tax

Outside of you, I hear nobody talking about any "death taxes".

 

[TurtleDude]

Outside of you, I hear nobody talking about any "death taxes".

You remind me of a bimbo 38 years ago

I CANNOT BELIEVE NIXON WON EVERYONE I KNOW voted for McGovern

 

[haymarket]

You remind me of a bimbo 38 years ago

I CANNOT BELIEVE NIXON WON EVERYONE I KNOW voted for McGovern

Does comparing apples to cinderblocks somehow add a sheen of faux credibility to an argument which otherwise is devoid of any?

 

[TurtleDude]

Does comparing apples to cinderblocks somehow add a sheen of faux credibility to an argument which otherwise is devoid of any?

everyone who is honest knows that death tax is a common description of your favorite tax that loots the estates of those who have already paid massive amounts of income tax upon their deaths

 

[haymarket]

Everyone who is honest knows that the term "death tax' is a blatant political attempt to pervert the estate tax in an effort to undermine it and gain support for radical right efforts to repeal it.

 

[GreenvilleGrows]

What happens when, eventually, the people who produce leave to go where they don't have to support those that don't? We need innovation. We need production. We need capitalism. Without it, we get the same flight of the best and brightest that other countries of the world have experienced for centuries. For a long time, the best and brightest have come here for opportunity - they wanted to produce and to contribute to the country that provided opportunity. Now, we have a majority who are here for a free ride. Free rides don't last. Someone has to pay the cost of the fuel or the ride comes to an end. Investing more and more resources into something that will never earn a return on the investment is bad long term strategy. We should all be investing in businesses and business people who produce returns in technology, innovation, development, and research - a long term strategy of jobs and production here in the US. These things come from capitalists - not from politicians, not from academia.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Does comparing apples to cinderblocks somehow add a sheen of faux credibility to an argument which otherwise is devoid of any?

It's an apt comparison. You said that you never heard anybody but TD use the term "death tax," then you must not watch FoxNews or listen to Rush Limbaugh. It's a pretty standard right-wing trope.

There are literally millions of people using the term "death tax," some are aware that it is a misnomer and do it purposely for political purposes, others have been so immersed in the term that they don't think critically about it.

Anyway, you're going to give TD credit for coming up with something as original as renaming the estate tax the death tax? As if he's that creative?

 

[haymarket]

It's an apt comparison. You said that you never heard anybody but TD use the term "death tax," then you must not watch FoxNews or listen to Rush Limbaugh. It's a pretty standard right-wing trope.

There are literally millions of people using the term "death tax," some are aware that it is a misnomer and do it purposely for political purposes, others have been so immersed in the term that they don't think critically about it.

Anyway, you're going to give TD credit for coming up with something as original as renaming the estate tax the death tax? As if he's that creative?

Its a BS comparison.... apples to cinderblocks.

I stated that I never heard anybody but Turtle whine on about the estate tax like he does. The fact is that those who need to care are less than one-half of one percent of the American public in any given year. In other words, you just don't have people walking around saying "boy oh boy but was my family really hosed by that estate tax". it impacts only a tiny minority of people and its only that tiny minority that needs to care about it apart from the right wing ideologues who are simply attempting to glom on and hijack the issue for their own partisan purposes.

So Turtle goes and compares this to people who could not accept the election of Nixon in 72 saying that everybody they knew voted for McGovern. Thats just BS. Look, I worked for and voted for McGovern and I knew he was going to lose and lose bad. Nobody is that blind to the world around them and it was obvious that Nixon had way far more support.

The opposite is true with this death tax nonsense. I have never ever heard one average person on the street or in a social or work or business situation discuss it. Never. It impacts so very few people that nobody gives a flying crap about it.

Turtle did compare apples to cinderblocks.

All I give Turtle credit for is following the marching order of Faris & Luntz in this regard. Nothing more than that.

Political use of "death tax" as a synonym for "estate tax" was encouraged by Jack Faris of the National Federation of Independent Business[41] during the Speakership of Newt Gingrich.
Well-known Republican pollster Frank Luntz wrote that the term "death tax" "kindled voter resentment in a way that 'inheritance tax' and 'estate tax' do not".[42

 

[TurtleDude]

Everyone who is honest knows that the term "death tax' is a blatant political attempt to pervert the estate tax in an effort to undermine it and gain support for radical right efforts to repeal it.

Haymarket calls anyone who doesn't bow down and worship the death tax "far extreme right"

everyone knows those who wet their shorts over the abomination benignly called the "estate tax" by wealth stealers termed the death tax by those who tire of that nonsense are far left extremists

 

[haymarket]

Haymarket calls anyone who doesn't bow down and worship the death tax "far extreme right"

Actually its pretty much just little ole you since you are the only one beating that drum so often.

 

[TurtleDude]

Actually its pretty much just little ole you since you are the only one beating that drum so often.

Uh maybe because unlike you I actually have to deal with the death tax

 

[haymarket]

Uh maybe because unlike you I actually have to deal with the death tax

You have made it very clear with your 180 degree reversals on the principles behind your income tax positions that you are motivated only by your personal economic situation and nothing else. Now this also make this abundantly clear with the estate tax also.

Thank you for that clarification.

 

[TurtleDude]

You have made it very clear with your 180 degree reversals on the principles behind your income tax positions that you are motivated only by your personal economic situation and nothing else. Now this also make this abundantly clear with the estate tax also.

Thank you for that clarification.

more dishonesty. I have not reversed anything. I said ideally people should pay for what they use. Practically, the best taxes are ones that eliminate the IRS and do not tax income but consumption. The next best choice after that is a flat tax because your dem masters cannot win votes by promising the many that all they want will be paid for by increased rates on the top brackets