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Report: U.S. to pay family of Ashli Babbitt, killed by police Jan. 6 (4 Viewers)

Yes. What about any similar situation. This is how you want to live? People are that disposable to you?

Question after question to desperately avoid answering 😆

It's bigly obvious in all these excuse-making posts to defend a stupid woman who stupidly believed a liar.
 
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Then why are those on the left struggling to justify the shooting of an unarmed woman in a hallway with probably a dozen police officers? Why all of the 'what if's?' and hyperbolic language?

You are correct, there is no need for anyone to struggle to justify a shooting based on "what ifs" because it is incumbent upon those who think the shooting was legally unjustified defense of others to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it could not be self-defense (or the defense of others).

Many folks who don't understand self-defense law, under which the officer has a right to use deadly defensive force against a deadly force threat, is unaware that it includes deadly force against a force that is capable of causing serious bodily harm, not just death.

So, the question then becomes, did the protestors present a reasonably perceived threat readily capable of causing death or serious bodily injury to the officer or those the officer had a duty to protect if they breached the barricade? It appears to me it is "yes" - regardless of whether or not Babbitt or anyone in the mob was armed.

Speculating on whether or not her knapsack contained a deadly weapon isn't necessary because the disparity of numbers (one vs. a mob) in successful breach is a sufficient and imminent threat to any single officer to overwhelm him, take his gun, and exact on him deadly force.

In short, is it a reasonable perception of the mob's capabilities by the officer, in the context of facing the protestors as they violently breached the barricaded doors he was tasked with defending?

In this instance, if a mob member, Ms. Babbitt, successfully leads the breaches the doors the officer is tasked with defending, it is reasonable to infer that the rest of the mob will follow her through—after all, they all came together to arrive at the barricade to initially smash the glass in the first place. and help her through the breach as the first one.

How could a prosecution of the officer prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise?

It could not.
 
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Can't they already if they feel their lives are in danger?
Yes, but it has to be an imminent threat, i.e. you think you are mere moments away from being killed (or very seriously injured).

I think a mob in that situation would be the same. You left out a key detail regardless. A store owner is different from someone trained to secure a location with government training.
The threshold for deadly force should be the same whether you are in law enforcement or a regular Joe.

I used the BLM example because in many cases that was a violent mob.
 
Question after question to desperately avoid answering 😆
Sorry, this stupid game doesn't work on me. I've answered your questions, you just don't want to debate. Bye.
 
So now law enforcement gets to kill anyone who doesn't do what they're told?

She was a security guard at a nuclear plant not 45 miles away from the spot where she was shot. If someone had tried to break into the control room there, she would have done exactly the same thing.
 
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Then why would they pay Babbitt's family ...
This ^ question has nothing to do with the law, and everything to do with avoiding reminding Americans of Traitor Trump’s responsibility for the events of January 6th, which would be guaranteed by going forward with a civil trial .
 
Yes, but it has to be an imminent threat, i.e. you think you are mere moments away from being killed (or very seriously injured).


The threshold for deadly force should be the same whether you are in law enforcement or a regular Joe.

I used the BLM example because in many cases that was a violent mob.

Violent insurrectioniats breaching the final barricade between those insurrectioniats and the people you are sworn to defend....
 
Yes, but it has to be an imminent threat, i.e. you think you are mere moments away from being killed (or very seriously injured).


The threshold for deadly force should be the same whether you are in law enforcement or a regular Joe.

I used the BLM example because in many cases that was a violent mob.
I brought it up not because the force is necessarily different but training is. A law enforcement officer is better trained to determine what that threshold is. Are they infallible? No.

That's why investigations occur after shootings. Byrd vs Babbitt's case was deemed justifiable. I have yet to see a compelling argument that changes my mind back to an exercise of more restraint. There were other mistakes you could mention I'd agree with but nothing related to Byrd's actions.
 
You are correct, there is no need for anyone to struggle to justify a shooting based on "what ifs" because it is incumbent upon those who think the shooting was legally unjustified defense of others to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it could not be self-defense (or the defense of others).

Many folks who don't understand self-defense law, under which the officer has a right to use deadly defensive force against a deadly force threat, is unaware that it includes deadly force against a force that is capable of causing serious bodily harm, not just death.

So, the question then becomes, did the protestors present a reasonably perceived threat readily capable of causing death or serious bodily injury to the officer or those the officer had a duty to protect if they breached the barricade? It appears to me it is "yes" - regardless of whether or not Babbitt or anyone in the mob was armed.

Speculating on whether or not her knapsack contained a deadly weapon isn't necessary because the disparity of numbers (one vs. a mob) in successful breach is a sufficient and imminent threat to any single officer to overwhelm him, take his gun, and exact on him deadly force.

In short, is it a reasonable perception of the mob's capabilities by the officer, in the context of facing the protestors as they violently breached the barricaded doors he was tasked with defending?

In this instance, if a mob member, Ms. Babbitt, successfully leads the breaches the doors the officer is tasked with defending, it is reasonable to infer that the rest of the mob will follow her through—after all, they all came together to arrive at the barricade to initially smash the glass in the first place. and help her through the breach as the first one.

How could a prosecution of the officer prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise?

It could not.
This is one unarmed person. Did she present a threat to the life of the officer? no. Did he have options other than deadly force? Clearly, yes. Were the other officers in the area shooting people? No.

Could he be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. That doesn't mean he was justified, or that he made a reasonable or necessary choice in escalating to deadly force.
 
This is one unarmed person. Did she present a threat to the life of the officer? no. Did he have options other than deadly force? Clearly, yes. Were the other officers in the area shooting people? No.

Could he be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. That doesn't mean he was justified, or that he made a reasonable or necessary choice in escalating to deadly force.

Violent insurrectioniats breaching the final barricade between those insurrectioniats and the people one is sworn to defend....

Hmmmmmm

No. He wouldn't be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt.

In fact wouldn't be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt because he wouldn't be charged.

He did his damned job.
 
Violent insurrectioniats breaching the final barricade between those insurrectioniats and the people one is sworn to defend....

Hmmmmmm

No. He wouldn't be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt.

In fact wouldn't be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt because he wouldn't be charged.

He did his damned job.

I am probably the only person in this thread that has been a security officer and held a gun on a closing threat that almost reached me before I had to pull the trigger - his sanity having finally kicked in after I screamed at him over and over to back off and sit down.

I didn't face a violent mob but a tall guy 100lbs bigger than me and who was in a place where he shouldn't be. It flashed in my mind that he could disarm me if he got a few feet closer.

If I'd faced a violent mob I can't say what I'd do... but it is most likely that I would have screamed stop and then felt compelled to fire only a second or two later than he did... people usually don't stop, at least at first.
 
I am probably the only person in this thread that has been a security officer and held a gun on a closing threat that almost reached me before I had to pull the trigger - his sanity having finally kicked in after I screamed at him over and over to back off and sit down.

I didn't face a violent mob but a tall guy 100lbs bigger than me and who was in a place where he shouldn't be. It flashed in my mind that he could disarm me if he got a few feet closer.

If I'd faced a violent mob I can't say what I'd do... but it is most likely that I would have screamed stop and then felt compelled to fire only a second or two later than he did... people usually don't stop, at least at first.

Close but not quite I was involved when a food riot began at Mogadishu airport.

A Hummer full Marines observed civilians breaking through the fence line and storming across the fields. We lined up, all seven of us, and readied to keep them out of the Ammo Supply point. M16s and Berettas were leveled at the crowd.

The crowd stopped short of us and began picking up stones.

Our Warrant Officer yelled out to the closest man of the group and declared he would be the first one shot. I aimed at my closest male and yelled the same. Then each rifle and pistol sought out males in the crowd. The men froze then turned towards the crowds and started yelling for them to get back...

Finally the Saudi contingent showed up with 3+ foot long switches and beat the crowd back.

All because the Saudis quit throwing their garbage over the fence.
 
Yes, but it has to be an imminent threat, i.e. you think you are mere moments away from being killed (or very seriously injured).

The threshold for deadly force should be the same whether you are in law enforcement or a regular Joe.

I used the BLM example because in many cases that was a violent mob.

On of the basic elements of self-defense law is that of Imminence, meaning that the threat against which the officer was defending was either actually in progress or immediately about to occur.

It was subjectively (and objectively) reasonable for the officer to perceive a “threat” in the form of the mob violently breaching the barricaded doors he was guarding. Once the mob had breached the doors there would be no practical means by which a single officer with a handgun could prevent the protestors from flooding further into the building, and presenting a deadly threat to the (mostly unarmed) other people whom the officer had a duty to defend and protect.

Moreover, the officer was receiving radio reports of protestors making use of chemical agents on officers and of shots being fired into the House chambers and, it is not necessary for these reports to have been true, it is only necessary that the officer had reason to believe them to be true which made his actions even more reasonable.

Just as an individual defending against the mob outside their home should try to be reasonable, as long as the mob remains outside the home. However, mob has forcibly and unlawfully breached the home, the threat against the occupants is clearly imminent. And unlike some states wherein there is a duty to retreat for civilians, the officer's duty is to protect people against such a mob.

The “red line” which when crossed justifies the use of defensive force. In the instance of the Capitol shooting, the barricaded doors Byrd was defending constitute that red line.

He didn't fire into the crowd before or after the breach. But once they smashed through the glass upper panel of the door—then made forcible and unlawful entry iin progress, and the threat—again, that the barricaded doorway the guard is defending will be breached—is actually in progress, it meets the conditions of the element of Imminence.

So, when Byrd fired the fatal shot into Ms. Babbitt, could he have had a reasonable perception that the doors he was defending were in the process of being breached?

Indeed, a close examination of the screen capture suggests that at the moment the shot is fired Ms. Babbitt has actually breached the door by extending her leg through the window frame of the door.

"Immanence" doesn't require him to only shoot when others follow and are pouring through the door, by then it could be too late (and result in even more tragic deaths).
 
Close but not quite I was involved when a food riot began at Mogadishu airport.

A Hummer full Marines observed civilians breaking through the fence line and storming across the fields. We lined up, all seven of us, and readied to keep them out of the Ammo Supply point. M16s and Berettas were leveled at the crowd.

The crowd stopped short of us and began picking up stones.

Our Warrant Officer yelled out to the closest man of the group and declared he would be the first one shot. I aimed at my closest male and yelled the same. Then each rifle and pistol sought out males in the crowd. The men froze then turned towards the crowds and started yelling for them to get back...

Finally the Saudi contingent showed up with 3+ foot long switches and beat the crowd back.

All because the Saudis quit throwing their garbage over the fence.

What I found was the most dangerous thing one could do is pull a gun when the person closes the gap - not only because the person can quickly close it but because when a person is too close, many have the instinct to charge hoping to disarm you.

That was my mistake, being untrained for the job. It shook me up so much that I quit the job.
 
Ok. But the average person is likely to find themselves in jail for a number of years if they go about shooting unarmed people crawling through windows if they're not actually protecting their home. Relatable or not.

The exception is, of course, if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Not if there's a violent mob. That's a key component that yall conveniently keep leaving out.
 
Not if there's a violent mob. That's a key component that yall conveniently keep leaving out.

Not only that, the store owner appears to have shot the man after he ran from the store into the back alley. Aside from the location outside the building, under most state laws you cannot shoot someone over property theft.

Whether or not one agrees with that restriction, the point is that the officer shot someone NOT over property, but because they were an imminent threat to the people he had to protect and he was duty bound NOT to run or ignore it.

I believe most folks who don't agree wish to believe that there had to be a better option. Well, there may have been...or there may have not. For example as an officer I might be tempted to parade in front of the barricade with a gun so that those trying to breach the door would see it and think twice whereas this officer was tucked in a protective alcove and barely seen by a few with his gun.

Would that be better? Not if by brandishing my gun some armed and enraged yahoo in the crowd I couldn't see was provoked to shoot me through the glass. Would it have been better to wait till she stood up and fully entered the breech, and then screamed for her to halt and back out or turn around? Not if that same yahoo took a pot shot at me.

My guess is that I would have remained where he was partially unconcealed, yelled a quck warning, she would have been confused by the shouting and stepped or pushed forward with another one or two on her heels. Then two or three people might be dead.

There is no easy answer.
 
Sorry, this stupid game doesn't work on me. I've answered your questions, you just don't want to debate. Bye.

No you didnt, you made excuses. But that's ok...everyone else is following along and sees that. And that you'll lie to cover up what's been publicly posted :rolleyes:
 
Not only that, the store owner appears to have shot the man after he ran from the store into the back alley. Aside from the location outside the building, under most state laws you cannot shoot someone over property theft.

Whether or not one agrees with that restriction, the point is that the officer shot someone NOT over property, but because they were an imminent threat to the people he had to protect and he was duty bound NOT to run or ignore it.

I believe most folks who don't agree wish to believe that there had to be a better option. Well, there may have been...or there may have not. For example as an officer I might be tempted to parade in front of the barricade with a gun so that those trying to breach the door would see it and think twice whereas this officer was tucked in a protective alcove and barely seen by a few with his gun.

Would that be better? Not if by brandishing my gun some armed and enraged yahoo in the crowd I couldn't see was provoked to shoot me through the glass. Would it have been better to wait till she stood up and fully entered the breech, and then screamed for her to halt and back out or turn around? Not if that same yahoo took a pot shot at me.

My guess is that I would have remained where he was partially unconcealed, yelled a quck warning, she would have been confused by the shouting and stepped or pushed forward with another one or two on her heels. Then two or three people might be dead.

There is no easy answer.
I only saw one area that would have affected the outcome and probably saved Babbitt's life. If the officer standing next to her by the wall had noticed she was about to climb through the door, he could have grabbed her. His attention was on the officers coming up the stairs to relieve him and his group. I earlier said he could be blamed, but blame is too harsh a word. I completely understand why someone in that chaos would be more concerned with his relief than watching the attack on the doors unfold, especially if he believed the glass would hold up longer than it did.

There are always going to be areas of improvement in these situations. Overall, I thought appropriate restraint was used given only one death occurred from a firearm. I would even argue more than appropriate restraint was exercised during the course of events.
 
Yes, I saw when you changed your stance.

It was based upon proximity to the Congress members. My question was why that mattered. Are they more important than Joe plumber?
As I said earlier, it depends on personal values/beliefs. Internally, I mostly hold to the first point below, but there are some lives I value less based on reprehensible actions. I've mentioned them earlier in this thread. People who are serial killers or who orchestrate serial killings fall to the bottom. People who commit other acts of violence or murder would be a rung up. Overall, I try to treat strangers as innocent until proven guilty and hold their lives to equal standards.

Society then filters into the second and third points below. There are some lives that impact society and the overall population in greater ways.
  • Ethical & Personal Perspective: Some might argue that all lives hold equal value, but in security-based decisions, protecting key figures ensures continuity of leadership and governance.
  • Legal & Institutional Significance: Members of Congress hold positions that directly impact national governance, making their safety a matter of national stability.
  • Security Protocol: Government officials often receive heightened protection due to their symbolic and strategic importance, not because their individual lives are inherently more valuable.
 
Pretty wild imagination there. Especially given there's no bomb, and if there was, she could set it off at any time.

How about Babbitt sees a police officer with a gun pointed at her, or who shoves her backwards, and stops. Or gets through and was confronted by the officer. The reaction team is in place by that time and stops any others.
Threat response isn’t judged after the fact. Officers assess threats based on unfolding events. Byrd had no way of knowing if Babbitt would stop, if she was carrying a concealed weapon, if she had a bomb, or if the reaction team would arrive in time. Waiting for absolute confirmation before acting isn’t risk assessment; it’s gambling on unknowns.

Also, you didn't ask it, but Cope did: why wouldn't she have set the bomb off earlier if she had one? Maximum effect. The closer she gets to her target, the more damage a bomb would do.

Would you apply this hindsight logic to any other security situation?
 
This is one unarmed person. Did she present a threat to the life of the officer? no. Did he have options other than deadly force? Clearly, yes. Were the other officers in the area shooting people? No.

Could he be prosecuted beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. That doesn't mean he was justified, or that he made a reasonable or necessary choice in escalating to deadly force.
An unarmed person who was with a mob of people who violently attacked the barricaded door to the point they broke the glass creating a gap for Babbitt to get through. The other officers weren't behind the door the mob was trying to breach, and there's no way of being certain a group of people (of which Babbitt was one) who are trying to get through a door violently have non violent intentions.
 

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