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Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in Out

hazlnut

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Coalition Releases Landmark Report: Trace the Guns

Report Confirms that States with Weakest Gun Laws are the Top Sources of Guns Recovered in Out-of-State Crimes

Ten States - Mississippi, West Virginia, Kentucky, Alaska, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, Nevada, and Georgia - Continue to Supply Interstate Crime Guns at the Highest Rates and New "Time-to-Crime" Data Confirm These States Source a Greater Proportion of Guns Likely to Have Been Illegally Trafficked

The bi-partisan coalition of Mayors Against Illegal Guns today released, Trace the Guns: the Link Between Gun Laws and Interstate Gun Trafficking, a report analyzing 2009 crime gun trace data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). The report, which examines previously unreleased data provided by ATF to Mayors Against Illegal Guns, shows that states with weak gun laws are disproportionately the top sources of guns recovered in out-of-state crimes. The report shows that states with weak gun laws disproportionately supply guns recovered in out-of-state crimes. In a first-of-its-kind analysis, the report also finds that that states with weak gun laws are a source of a greater proportion of guns recovered in crimes shortly after their initial purchase -- a measure considered by ATF to be a key indicator of illegal trafficking. The report is available at http://www.tracetheguns.org/report.pdf.
The gun show loophole must be closed.

Increase ATF funding and enforce the federal trafficking laws that are on the books.

To understand why some states supply more interstate crime guns, the coalition's report examined the relationship between state gun laws designed to deter illegal firearms trafficking and a state's export rate and guns with a short time-to-crime. The ten gun laws examined were: (1) state criminal penalties for straw purchasers; (2) state criminal penalties for falsifying purchaser information; (3) state criminal penalties for failing to conduct dealer background checks; (4) background checks for all handgun sales at gun shows; (5) purchase permits for all handgun sales; (6) gun possession by violent misdemeanants; (7) local law enforcement discretion to deny concealed carry permits; (8) reporting lost or stolen guns to law enforcement; (9) local control of firearms regulation; and (10) state inspections of gun dealers.
When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety, then the federal government must get off it's duff and do something.

Stop seeing gun regs as a third rail and begin a reasonable bipartisan discussion on how to keep people safe. I don't want to take your guns away. I just don't want your legally purchased handgun to wind up in my city in the hands of a criminal.

If you want to prevent government from over-regulating, then the NRA should come to the table with suggestions. Show sympathy for innocent victims of illegal handguns and then purpose an industry-funded rededication to responsibility and safety. Be smart and get out in front of the issue. The Mayors aren't going to go away. And from a PR standpoint, gun violence gets more media play than a customer turned away from a gun show.
 

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Where are those guns used most often? In states with strict gun laws, or more lax ones? I'm betting the former. ;)

Where people get their guns is really irrelevant when considering where they USE them.
 

jallman

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Coalition Releases Landmark Report: Trace the Guns



The gun show loophole must be closed.

Increase ATF funding and enforce the federal trafficking laws that are on the books.



When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety, then the federal government must get off it's duff and do something.

Stop seeing gun regs as a third rail and begin a reasonable bipartisan discussion on how to keep people safe. I don't want to take your guns away. I just don't want your legally purchased handgun to wind up in my city in the hands of a criminal.

If you want to prevent government from over-regulating, then the NRA should come to the table with suggestions. Show sympathy for innocent victims of illegal handguns and then purpose an industry-funded rededication to responsibility and safety. Be smart and get out in front of the issue. The Mayors aren't going to go away. And from a PR standpoint, gun violence gets more media play than a customer turned away from a gun show.
Maybe instead of being pissy and trying to control the rights of other states, you should try to control the criminals in your own. Then the states that respect the second amendment will be happy not to have your trash coming across to their borders to buy guns. :shrug:
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

A group called "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" comes out with a report that confirms a common sense proposition and you find this groundbreaking?

Of course states that have lax gun laws will be the source of most guns transported out of state. It wouldn't make much sense for someone trying to smuggle guns to NY to buy them from IL, would it?

I also lol'd heartily at this:

When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety, then the federal government must get off it's duff and do something.
Apply that logic in a few different contexts and lets see if you still think the same way.
 

Goobieman

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

The gun show loophole must be closed.
Not that I think this is anthing other than one of your usual drive-by postings and that you have any real intention to actually discuss the issue...

There is no gun show loophole. All of the laws that apply everywhere else also apply at gun shows.

Increase ATF funding and enforce the federal trafficking laws that are on the books.
Hmm. The pro-gun sde has been calling for the actual enforcement of existing laws for quite some time. Welcome aboard.

When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety...
Show how simple possession of a firearm does this, and you'll have an argument.

Stop seeing gun regs as a third rail and begin a reasonable bipartisan discussion on how to keep people safe.
I will fully support any and every gun control law or proposal for same that ensures criminals will not get guns and does not infringe on the right to arms.
When you find one, let me know.
 
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ReverendHellh0und

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

This simple minded hoplophobic rant is nothing more than regurgitation of the anti-gun lobby.


Its not the 2nd amendment that has you all scared hazlnut. It your inability to not rely on others for your own well being. :shrug:
 
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hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Where are those guns used most often? In states with strict gun laws, or more lax ones? I'm betting the former. ;)
I would suggest reading or a least skimming the report before posting... or speculating, betting, etc.

Where people get their guns is really irrelevant when considering where they USE them.
By your logic, Colorado and Utah could dump their waste materials and sewage into the Colorado River. The cancer clusters in Arizona and crop destruction in California are not really their problem.
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

A group called "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" comes out with a report that confirms a common sense proposition and you find this groundbreaking?
I'm glad you find it common sense. Let's see if all those with a 'conservative or Libertarian' lean agree.

Of course states that have lax gun laws will be the source of most guns transported out of state. It wouldn't make much sense for someone trying to smuggle guns to NY to buy them from IL, would it?
Again, kudos for acknowledging a problem that most conservatives ignore.

I also lol'd heartily at this:



Apply that logic in a few different contexts and lets see if you still think the same way.
If you want to change the topic, I suggest starting a new thread.

But I'd like to hear why you think the 'harm principle' is something to be laughed at.

If an illegal handgun can be traced back to a legal or semi-legal sale (as all guns can unless Colt is selling them right out of the factory) then shouldn't we address that spot where the legal gun became illegal and discuss reasonable measures to help law enforcement intervene at that point?

Free market to grey market to black market. Do you support measures that would limit the black market? If so, let's hear them?
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

By your logic, Colorado and Utah could dump their waste materials and sewage into the Colorado River. The cancer clusters in Arizona and crop destruction in California are not really their problem.
Terrible analogy.

If Colorado dumps waste in the river, it automatically follows that that waste will cause cancer down river.

If TX has less restrictive gun laws, it does not automatically follow that someone will purchase those guns, drive to NY, and sell those guns to a drug dealer who will shoot his rival. There's something called an intervening cause there.
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

I'm glad you find it common sense. Let's see if all those with a 'conservative or Libertarian' lean agree.

Again, kudos for acknowledging a problem that most conservatives ignore.
lol, it's not a "problem," it's 5th grade logic.

Imagine that two stores on opposite sides of a park are selling ice cream. One sells it for $1, while the other sells it for $5 and makes you wait in a long line and fill out a form. People from both sides of the park will go to the store selling it for $1.

I don't think there is anyone who would argue with this or find this particularly groundbreaking.


If you want to change the topic, I suggest starting a new thread.

But I'd like to hear why you think the 'harm principle' is something to be laughed at.
It's your leaps in logic that I'm criticizing.

If an illegal handgun can be traced back to a legal or semi-legal sale (as all guns can unless Colt is selling them right out of the factory) then shouldn't we address that spot where the legal gun became illegal and discuss reasonable measures to help law enforcement intervene at that point?
Sure. Since that illegal sale generally takes place in the state with the strict gun laws, they should do a better job of cracking down on it.

Free market to grey market to black market. Do you support measures that would limit the black market? If so, let's hear them?
Prosecute the people who buy/use them illegally?
 

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

If an illegal handgun can be traced back to a legal or semi-legal sale
What's a "semi-legal' sale?

...then shouldn't we address that spot where the legal gun became illegal
Yes. We should punish those that acted illegally.

Do you support measures that would limit the black market? If so, let's hear them?
Illegal sales of guns on the black market is, by defintion, illegal.
How do you suggest we place more limits on it, given that it is already banned?
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Maybe instead of being pissy and trying to control the rights of other states, you should try to control the criminals in your own. Then the states that respect the second amendment will be happy not to have your trash coming across to their borders to buy guns. :shrug:
Again, I suggest actually reading the report and getting an solid understanding of what law enforcement is seeing as the typical practice...
 

jallman

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Again, I suggest actually reading the report and getting an solid understanding of what law enforcement is seeing as the typical practice...
Again, instead of getting pissy about what other states are doing, why not get the criminals in your own state under control?

I read your silly report. It didn't state anything anyone with half a brain didn't already suspect.
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

What's a "semi-legal' sale?
Grey-market gun show practices are listed in the article.


Yes. We should punish those that acted illegally.
How can we help law enforcement to better do that?

Where do you see the crime taking place:

At the gun show booth?
In the gun show parking lot?
In a hotel room at the gun show?
Down the highway from the gun show?
At the state line?
In the other state?




Illegal sales of guns on the black market is, by defintion, illegal.
How do you suggest we place more limits on it, given that it is already banned?
The article addressed quite a few, I put those that jumped out at me in bold.

Could you answer my question?
 

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

I would suggest reading or a least skimming the report before posting... or speculating, betting, etc.
So, you don't know? Because that report surely doesn't say. Did you even read it, or did you point me to it just assuming that it gave the information I requested and assuming I hadn't at least skimmed it?


By your logic, Colorado and Utah could dump their waste materials and sewage into the Colorado River. The cancer clusters in Arizona and crop destruction in California are not really their problem.
No, by my logic, areas where people are less likely to be able to defend themselves are going to be areas most likely for people to engage in criminal activity against others in.
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Again, instead of getting pissy about what other states are doing, why not get the criminals in your own state under control?

I read your silly report. It didn't state anything anyone with half a brain didn't already suspect.
Then you agree the weak gun laws in those 10 states must be addressed by the Federal Government?
 

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Then you agree the weak gun laws in those 10 states must be addressed by the Federal Government?
That's not what I said at all. Here, let me repeat for you one more time, except a little more directly:

Handle criminals in your own state. It's not up to other states to amend their laws to help you overcome your problems.
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Terrible analogy.

If Colorado dumps waste in the river, it automatically follows that that waste will cause cancer down river.
So, you do agree that states should consider the effect their laws might have on their neighbors.

If TX has less restrictive gun laws, it does not automatically follow that someone will purchase those guns, drive to NY, and sell those guns to a drug dealer who will shoot his rival. There's something called an intervening cause there.
Texas wasn't mentioned as one of the 10 states.

And my response was in response to a specific post. You're paraphrasing is inaccurate in that context.
 

RightinNYC

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

So, you do agree that states should consider the effect their laws might have on their neighbors.
They can consider whatever they want. Doesn't mean they have to change their laws because they could possibly be one factor in a chain of events that causes something in another state.

Texas wasn't mentioned as one of the 10 states.
Which is highly relevant to my point!

And my response was in response to a specific post. You're paraphrasing is inaccurate in that context.
The point is that your argument doesn't make sense. Again, it's like arguing that because someone from NY lost all his money in Vegas, the federal government should force NV to ban gambling.
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

That's not what I said at all.
Really?

Let's check the tape, shall we...

I read your silly report. It didn't state anything anyone with half a brain didn't already suspect.
So did you read it, yes or no? And do you agree with the findings and actions suggested?

Here, let me repeat for you one more time, except a little more directly:

Handle criminals in your own state. It's not up to other states to amend their laws to help you overcome your problems.
Of course, I don't see you as a problem at all, but some states do. Let's hope you don't get hospitalized in a state that won't allow your partner to visit you or make medical decisions for you.
 

jallman

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Really?

Let's check the tape, shall we...
Check it, write it down, take a picture. I don't give a ****. :shrug:

So did you read it, yes or no? And do you agree with the findings and actions suggested?
I'm not doing this with you. I have made my stance clear to anyone who reads it. I am sorry you are having such a hard time wrapping your head around it.

Of course, I don't see you as a problem at all, but some states do. Let's hope you don't get hospitalized in a state that won't allow your partner to visit you or make medical decisions for you.
Let's hope the day you make a useful post the forum doesn't collapse in on itself.

See how irrelevant digs are so productive? :shrug:
 

hazlnut

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

They can consider whatever they want. Doesn't mean they have to change their laws because they could possibly be one factor in a chain of events that causes something in another state.
And if they were to consider, what would you suggest?



Which is highly relevant to my point!
Your point was irrelevant to my post when taken in context of the post to which I was replying.



The point is that your argument doesn't make sense. Again, it's like arguing that because someone from NY lost all his money in Vegas, the federal government should force NV to ban gambling.
My argument was that a reasoned bipartisan conversation is needed to address issue. -- Why does that not make sense?

I even went a step further and suggested that gun rights people get out in front of this and come up with ways to self-monitor or self-regulate to prevent a government over-reaction. The bigger dealers have a fiscal interest in not allowing medium and small dealers to sell to less reputable people.

The vibe I'm getting from you and Jall is that you agree with the report but you resent me for posting it because it fuels liberal anti-gun arguments.
 

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Grey-market gun show practices are listed in the article.
What "grey market gun show practices"? Gun dealers have to follow all of the same laws at a gun show as they do if they were selling the gun at their place of business.

How can we help law enforcement to better do that?
Where do you see the crime taking place:
At the gun show booth?
In the gun show parking lot?
In a hotel room at the gun show?
Down the highway from the gun show?
At the state line?
In the other state?
"The" crime could be taking place at any of these locations in any number of ways.
What's your point?

The article addressed quite a few...
Ah yes... Lets go over these quickly...
State Criminal Penalties for: Straw Purchasing, Falsifying Purchaser
Information, and Failing to Conduct Dealer Background Checks
This already violates federal law, and, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, there's no need for further laws to that effect.

B. Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
Under current federal law, private sellers, who maintain that they sell guns only occasionally,
do not need to be licensed and so are exempt from running background checks regardless of
where they sell a gun.24 This gap in federal background check laws, often called the “Gun Show
Loophole,”
This is, of course, asinine, as this "loophole" applies to any and every sale between private individuals, whether at a gun show or elsewhere. That this is something specific to gun shows only illustrates the ignorance of those writing the article.

C. Purchase Permits for All Handgun Sales
A permit to exercise a right not based on a time-place-manner restrictions to the exercize of that right on public property is an infringement and violates the Constitution.

D. Local Law Enforcement Discretion to Approve or Deny Concealed Carry Permits
I dont see a cause, just correlation.
How is this supposed to have an effect on interstate gun traffic?

E. Gun Possession By Violent Misdemeanants
I dont see a cause, just correlation.

F. Reporting Lost or Stolen Guns to Law Enforcement
I dont see a cause, just correlation.

G. Local Control of Firearms Regulations
This is an equal protection issue - your rights arent determined by what start of a state you live in.

H. State Inspection of Gun Dealers
More correlation w/ lack of cause.
Past that -- the Federal government does this -- and, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, there's no need for states to do it as well.

All told, this 'report' is nonsense, and nothing more than a poorly-reasoned excuse to foist more useless gun control upon the law abiding.

I also notice you declined to try to show how simple possession of a firearm creates a direct threat to your safety. Good choice.
 
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Goobieman

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Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

My argument was that a reasoned bipartisan conversation is needed to address issue. -- Why does that not make sense?
You already addressed the issue as far as it needs to be addressed: Enforce the laws already on the books. Do that and the "need" for any of the other suggestions goes out the window.
 
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