Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in Out

[RightinNYC]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

And if they were to consider, what would you suggest

I have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not "suggesting" that they consider anything. I'm agreeing that states are free to consider the impact their legislation will have on other states when making policy choices. I'm not saying that they have to give a **** about whether some asshole in NY will buy illegally buy guns from some guy who legally bought them within their state.

Your point was irrelevant to my post when taken in context of the post to which I was replying.

You made a seriously flawed analogy. I pointed out why that analogy was flawed. What is so confusing about this?

My argument was that a reasoned bipartisan conversation is needed to address issue. -- Why does that not make sense?

I even went a step further and suggested that gun rights people get out in front of this and come up with ways to self-monitor or self-regulate to prevent a government over-reaction. The bigger dealers have a fiscal interest in not allowing medium and small dealers to sell to less reputable people.

Again, there are plenty of laws on the books that deal with this process already. Why should SC have to change their laws just because a drug dealer in NY is illegally buying guns in NY from someone who legally purchased them in SC? Why doesn't NY deal with the problems on their end?

The vibe I'm getting from you and Jall is that you agree with the report but you resent me for posting it because it fuels liberal anti-gun arguments.

No, the vibe you're getting from me and Jall is that the report's main finding is common sense, and that you're erroneously using those basic facts to make ridiculous arguments about how other states should be forced to change their laws to fit your desires.

 

[jallman]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

How was that a dig?

Because my sexuality had zero to do with your discussion of gun control laws. It was a forced and false analogy.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

What "grey market gun show practices"? Gun dealers have to follow all of the same laws at a gun show as they do if they were selling the gun at their place of business.

A grey market is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which, while legal, are unofficial, unauthorized, or unintended by the original manufacturer.

"The" crime could be taking place at any of these locations in any number of ways.
What's your point?

So, what could be done by these states or the fed to limit the crime at these locations. Should these states review their own laws or should the Fed intervene?

Ah yes... Lets go over these quickly...

This already violates federal law, and, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, there's no need for further laws to that effect.

Then there's no need for the AZ immigration law--as long as the Fed further funds the fence and ICE?

B. Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
Under current federal law, private sellers, who maintain that they sell guns only occasionally,
do not need to be licensed and so are exempt from running background checks regardless of
where they sell a gun.24 This gap in federal background check laws, often called the “Gun Show
Loophole,”

This is, of course, asinine, as this "loophole" applies to any and every sale between private individuals, whether at a gun show or elsewhere. That this is something specific to gun shows only illustrates the ignorance of those writing the article.

How do they define "Occasionally"? There's your grey market.

I can't sell a car without filling out a transfer of ownership and filing it with the DMV.

A permit to exercise a right not based on a time-place-manner restrictions to the exercize of that right on public property is an infringement and violates the Constitution.

I'm assuming there's a difference between purchase permit and owner's permit? Two different permits would seem excessive. As far as your civil liberties law interpretation... you'll have to clarify.

I dont see a cause, just correlation.
How is this supposed to have an effect on interstate gun traffic?

According to the report: This report also reveals that states with weak gun laws supply a greater proportion of guns with a short time-to-crime. The ten states that supply guns at the highest rates have, on average, 1.4 of the ten laws designed to deter illegal trafficking in place, compared to 8.2 in the ten states that supply interstate crime guns at the lowest rates.

I dont see a cause, just correlation.

Again, according to the report - these laws result in fewer guns finding their way into the black market.

I dont see a cause, just correlation.

Same as above.

This is an equal protection issue - your rights arent determined by what start of a state you live in.

But the attitudes to gun law enforcement are. Again, according to the report, the state that have these on books...

More correlation w/ lack of cause.
Past that -- the Federal government does this -- and, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, there's no need for states to do it as well.

Do ATF agents show up at gun shows, maintain a presence at the show?

All told, this 'report' is nonsense.

How so ??- "This report also reveals that states with weak gun laws supply a greater proportion of guns with a short time-to-crime. The ten states that supply guns at the highest rates have, on average, 1.4 of the ten laws designed to deter illegal trafficking in place, compared to 8.2 in the ten states that supply interstate crime guns at the lowest rates."

Do you disagree and have your own data to back up your opinion?

I also notice you declined to try to show how simple possession of a firearm creates a direct threat to your safety. Good choice.

When did I state that it does? Do you not understand the expression, 'though a keyhole'?

Well, at least you're the only one with the knowledge and guts to address the report point by point. For that, I tip my hat.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Because my sexuality had zero to do with your discussion of gun control laws. It was a forced and false analogy.

I'm not sure you understand what a false analogy is. Your statement was:

It's not up to other states to amend their laws to help you overcome your problems.

I applied that statement to another current issue. Not really an analogy at all. Just putting things in perspective for you.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

You made a seriously flawed analogy. I pointed out why that analogy was flawed. What is so confusing about this?

If applied to OP, the analogy doesn't fit, but if you would go back and read the post to which I was replying....you'd be less confused.

Again, there are plenty of laws on the books that deal with this process already. Why should SC have to change their laws just because a drug dealer in NY is illegally buying guns in NY from someone who legally purchased them in SC? Why doesn't NY deal with the problems on their end?

Why? I guess you didn't read the article either:

"This report also reveals that states with weak gun laws supply a greater proportion of guns with a short time-to-crime. The ten states that supply guns at the highest rates have, on average, 1.4 of the ten laws designed to deter illegal trafficking in place, compared to 8.2 in the ten states that supply interstate crime guns at the lowest rates."

No, the vibe you're getting from me and Jall is that the report's main finding is common sense, and that you're erroneously using those basic facts to make ridiculous arguments about how other states should be forced to change their laws to fit your desires.

Again, report makes that case (see above). It sounds reasonable to me.

 

[jallman]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

I'm not sure you understand what a false analogy is. Your statement was:



I applied that statement to another current issue. Not really an analogy at all. Just putting things in perspective for you.

Let me put things in perspective for you: my sexuality has zero to do with your discussion of gun laws. Gun laws in one state do not affect your personal freedoms in another.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Let me put things in perspective for you: my sexuality has zero to do with your discussion of gun laws. Gun laws in one state do not affect your personal freedoms in another.

You really should read the report before replying again, because you're talking out of two sides of your mouth.

 

[jallman]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

You really should read the report before replying again, because you're talking out of two sides of your mouth.

I've already read the ****ing report. Stop implying that I haven't just because you can't grasp what I am stating in plain english.

Gun laws in one state do not affect your personal freedoms in another. You analogy was false because it spoke to my personal freedoms and liberties being restricted based on my sexuality. You FAIL.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

I've already read the ****ing report. Stop implying that I haven't just because you can't grasp what I am stating in plain english.

You keep saying you have but then make contradictory statements that indicate otherwise. Please see example in bold below:

Gun laws in one state do not affect your personal freedoms in another.

You analogy was false because it spoke to my personal freedoms and liberties being restricted based on my sexuality. You FAIL.

Didn't make an analogy, just put your statement in perspective.

 

[jallman]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

You keep saying you have but then make contradictory statements that indicate otherwise. Please see example in bold below:

Nothing in my statement indicates that I haven't read the report. I disagree with the conclusions you drew from it.

Didn't make an analogy, just put your statement in perspective.

And it was a false perspective. It was a false analogy whether you like to admit it or not.

Now please, go back to claiming your silly report wasn't read or whatever it is you're trying pass off as "debate" this time.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

A grey market is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which, while legal, are unofficial, unauthorized, or unintended by the original manufacturer.

Oh... so, its essentially a meaningless term, applicable to just about every commodity available, designed with the specific purpose to cast a shadow of impropriety upon private gun sales.

So, what could be done by these states or the fed to limit the crime at these locations. Should these states review their own laws or should the Fed intervene?

They, the state and federal governments, should enforce their existing laws. No more and no less is necessary.

Then there's no need for the AZ immigration law--as long as the Fed further funds the fence and ICE?

Red herring.
Thus, I accpet your concession of the point that the items you mention already violates federal law, and, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, you agree there's no need for further laws to that effect.

How do they define "Occasionally"? There's your grey market.

Hardly. Various laws and regulations define what constitutes commencing in the commerce of firearms as a business; you may visit the relevant sections of the CFR at your leisure..
Your grey are doesn't exist anywhere like you think it does.

I can't sell a car without filling out a transfer of ownership and filing it with the DMV.

And so...? Do you need a dealer to do this? No.
Given that, your private sale of a car is also part of the "grey market".

I'm assuming there's a difference between purchase permit and owner's permit?

Permit to own, permit too buy -- same thing. Both infringe on the right and therefore violate the constitution.
The government may require a permit for the exercise of a right on public property, with said permit specifying the time place and manner of said exercise. It may not deny that permit based on content, and it may not require a permit of the exercise of the right on private property. Your suggestion for a wholesale requirement exceeds this allowance and therefore creates an infringement that violates the Constitution, which specifies that the right to keep and bear arms may not be infringed.

According to the report: This report also reveals that states with wean laws supply a greater proportion of guns with a short time-to-crime. The ten states that supply guns at the highest rates have, on average, 1.4 of the ten laws designed to deter illegal trafficking in place, compared to 8.2 in the ten states that supply interstate crime guns at the lowest rates.

The part you're missining all of this is that there is only a correlation between the states with the laws you mention and the supposed 'supply' of guns from them.
Nothing in any of the report shows that the laws in question are the cause for that correlation. As such, the report, in none of the specified sections, put forth a sound argument that the laws in question are at fault for the effects attributed to them. As such, there's no rational basis for any argument to strengthen these laws.

Do ATF agents show up at gun shows, maintain a presence at the show?

Theu certainly do. So, again, since you support the increased federal enforcement of existing federal laws, you agree that there's no need for states to do it as well

How so ??

I have addressed each of the suggestions and, at least, noted how they do not support any conclusion as none of them show causaton.

When did I state that it does? Do you not understand the expression, 'though a keyhoke'

You said:

When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety, then the federal government must get off it's duff and do something.

You have since argued that the federal government must get off its duff and do something.
So, does my 2nd amendment right to siple possession of a firearm directly affect your personal safety?
If so, specifically how; if not, then on what do you base your desire for the federal government to get off its duff?

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

If applied to OP, the analogy doesn't fit, but if you would go back and read the post to which I was replying....you'd be less confused.

I read it the first time. It's still a ****ty analogy.

"This report also reveals that states with weak gun laws supply a greater proportion of guns with a short time-to-crime.

Who gives a ****?

The ten states that supply guns at the highest rates have, on average, 1.4 of the ten laws designed to deter illegal trafficking in place, compared to 8.2 in the ten states that supply interstate crime guns at the lowest rates."

Who gives a **** 2.0? How is this a response to my post?

Again, report makes that case (see above).

The report makes that suggestion based on its authors feelings about what sounds like good policy. That doesn't mean it necessarily follows from the fact in the thread title.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Coalition Releases Landmark Report: Trace the Guns



The gun show loophole must be closed.

Increase ATF funding and enforce the federal trafficking laws that are on the books.



When your 2nd Amendment rights directly effect my personal safety, then the federal government must get off it's duff and do something.

Stop seeing gun regs as a third rail and begin a reasonable bipartisan discussion on how to keep people safe. I don't want to take your guns away. I just don't want your legally purchased handgun to wind up in my city in the hands of a criminal.

If you want to prevent government from over-regulating, then the NRA should come to the table with suggestions. Show sympathy for innocent victims of illegal handguns and then purpose an industry-funded rededication to responsibility and safety. Be smart and get out in front of the issue. The Mayors aren't going to go away. And from a PR standpoint, gun violence gets more media play than a customer turned away from a gun show.

there is no such thing as a gun show loophole

the laws of a state apply to a gun show the same as any other place or event in the state

same with federal law

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Then you agree the weak gun laws in those 10 states must be addressed by the Federal Government?

nope what needs to happen is for the courts to get rid of the idiotic gun control schemes in Illinois, NY, California and other states.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

there is no such thing as a gun show loophole

the laws of a state apply to a gun show the same as any other place or event in the state

same with federal law

I don't know a lot about gun control laws, but it would just seem to make logical sense that if one crosses state lines to purchase a gun, one's home state's gun laws ought to apply -- as well as the laws of the state in which purchase is made. That'd stop a lot of this nonsense. That'd need a Federal law, though.

 

[jamesrage]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

Again, kudos for acknowledging a problem that most conservatives ignore.

I do not think it is a problem with people in anti-2nd amendment states coming to my state to purchase firearms. If your state does not respect the 2nd amendment then **** your states unconstitutional laws. My state is under no obligation to abide by your states unconstitutional laws.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Report Confirms States with Weakest Gun Laws are Top Sources of Guns Recovered in

I don't know a lot about gun control laws, but it would just seem to make logical sense that if one crosses state lines to purchase a gun, one's home state's gun laws ought to apply -- as well as the laws of the state in which purchase is made. That'd stop a lot of this nonsense. That'd need a Federal law, though.

funny you should ask since I have dealt with gun laws from just about every angle

1) if you live in say ohio you can only buy a handgun from a dealer in Ohio or from another citizen in Ohio
2) A resident of Kentucky can buy a long gun (rifle, shotgun) from an Ohio dealer or a dealer in another nearby state
3) a resident of Kentucky cannot buy a long gun or handgun from a non dealer from Ohio or any other state but Kentucky
4) private citizens can sell personally owned guns. They cannot sell a gun they have owned for less than 24 hours and if they sell enough guns to be characterized as engaging in the BUSINESS of selling firearms, they have to obtain a federal firearms license
5) only those with federal firearms licences are required to submit a buyer's name for a background check in most states and only such dealers can even access the background check process.
6) anti gun types claim there is a gun show loophole which is a lie because the law that applies to private sellers is the same at a gun show, a swap meet, an Elks Lodge or your own home. Those laws being you cannot sell a gun to someone you know or have reason to know is a non-resident of your state or cannot legally own a gun

Gun show banners argue that a gun show is a convenient place for crooks to buy guns because there are more private sellers at a gun show than say any other place and that might be TRUE. HOwever, gun shows crawl with cops and federal agents. Not only those on duty but because many cops work as dealers or dealers employees at gun shows. lots of cops are into guns and go to gun shows because they like guns. Being a convict at a gun show ups the chance of running into someone who knows you are a convict.