Remote workers

[Grandpappy]

Its all about $$$$ and playing the legal games. There are almost limitless ways around laws if the company is willing to invest. Not all companies go International just to save on taxes, and the bigger the employer, the greater chance they will loop-hole everyone and every legality in sight.

On this we agree.

 

[roguenuke]

I will not divulge company information here, but using a technique similar to a Remote Server worked just fine for the hundred or so remote programmers at the Credit Card company. Believe me, CC companies are way up on the 'try to hack' business list.

There are still companies above them on the "try to hack" list that cannot do that. And programmers are not the only IT jobs. When you set up a remote server, that still requires money and resources, as well as likely more workers to operate that, secure that server. The more people on that remote server (likely more than one if you have 100+ programmers on it), the more security people you need to work that extra security work. Cybersecurity is not a one man job in most companies, let alone major companies that require a lot of cybersecurity.

In some cases, the executives don't care. But a good company is going to pay attention to the security cost and potential lawsuits that could come from shipping a job overseas and how vulnerable that leaves them to being hacked.

But the big thing is that workers being remote in the US is not going to be the decision maker for whether that job is shipped overseas. It is going to be cheaper for most companies to have their workers working remote than working in an office (I know of one company that was able to give up a major building lease by having all their workers in that area work remote).

 

[beefheart]

Heard on the radio the other day a story about towns and states that are actually offering cash and other incentives to lure workers who can work remotely away from metro areas. Seems to be happening some for San Fran remote workers. Also seems to be happening in my state, CT...people who are able to remote work are leaving the state for cheaper places to live, while still securing their higher pay. On the surface of it, this is a no brainer. But I feel it's short sighted. These people are making an investment in a career that can be done entirely on a computer, from anywhere. Which, to my thinking, means it can be done by a dude in China or India, who is happy as a clam with making 250$ a week or so. Seems to me, what remote workers are doing, by not going back to the office, is accelerating the rate at which their jobs get shipped overseas.

What say you? Am I crazy? Or are these folks in for a rough ride over the next 5-10 years?

I've been working at home for last 8 or so years, big tech company. Now they are looking at letting us work from out of the country. It is very appealing, as we want to retire in Costa Rica...

 

[roguenuke]

Its all about $$$$ and playing the legal games. There are almost limitless ways around laws if the company is willing to invest. Not all companies go International just to save on taxes, and the bigger the employer, the greater chance they will loop-hole everyone and every legality in sight.

Should there be ways around the laws?

And we aren't talking about taxes here either. This is about workers, and whether having US workers go from in office jobs to remote jobs will be reason to send those jobs overseas. That in itself is just not a good reason to send jobs overseas unless they were already considering it.

 

[The Old Soul]

Lawsuits and legailities...after relocating and leaving one the most money-grubbing and influential companies on the planet, I was turned down at another job after a rather intrusive background check that was probably one punctuation mark shy of being illegal; I was denied a position I was 100% qualified for because of my experience and prior knowledge for fear of retaliation from the company I left. When I left said job, I was bound by, and required to fill out 'Proprietary' disclaimers, 'Non Compete' agreements, and all but physical threats if anything surfaced that could be contributed to prior knowledge in the future. I was one of the developers in the 'Security' loop.

 

[The Old Soul]

Should there be ways around the laws?

And we aren't talking about taxes here either. This is about workers, and whether having US workers go from in office jobs to remote jobs will be reason to send those jobs overseas. That in itself is just not a good reason to send jobs overseas unless they were already considering it.

Going remote was one of the things that saved some domestic positions from outsourcing. Our IT staff (probably 20K or 30K in the USA) was about 80% in-house/20% outsourced - heard of TATA? One of the systems I was working on was off-shored, and they sent 6 programmers to watch over my shoulder and take over my role. They were good at following exact instructions, but had no concept of analysis, problem identification, and fixing things. It came back to bite them, and today much of the remote programming has been moved back here. You get what you pay for in the end.

 

[KevinKohler]

Not Untrue; been there, done that working for an international Credit Card / Banking company, and before that an online Stock Brokerage house. Even the bosses admitted it. I was paid to be on-call when I had my own cube at the business complex, but that went away when I (and several others) toted our PCs home. I spent a New Years Eve at my home workstation because they could not get a hold of the 'office' employees to put out a fire that never happened.

Then they most likely did so illegally. Which happens quite a lot.

 

[Gaius46]

Heard on the radio the other day a story about towns and states that are actually offering cash and other incentives to lure workers who can work remotely away from metro areas. Seems to be happening some for San Fran remote workers. Also seems to be happening in my state, CT...people who are able to remote work are leaving the state for cheaper places to live, while still securing their higher pay. On the surface of it, this is a no brainer. But I feel it's short sighted. These people are making an investment in a career that can be done entirely on a computer, from anywhere. Which, to my thinking, means it can be done by a dude in China or India, who is happy as a clam with making 250$ a week or so. Seems to me, what remote workers are doing, by not going back to the office, is accelerating the rate at which their jobs get shipped overseas.

What say you? Am I crazy? Or are these folks in for a rough ride over the next 5-10 years?

I honesty don’t think it’s much of a concern. I’ve managed remote teams for the last 20 years including offshore people in India. Truth of the matter is is that Indian salaries are becoming competitive with US salaries. They’re still paid less but it’s rapidly becoming the case that the salary differential doesn’t compensate for the difficulties related to language and culture.

 

[KevinKohler]

I can't speak to the topic of your sanity. You probably need to check with your wife or a concerned loved one.

The amount of remoteness from the work site could become a concern for those who like that option.

It seems like a growing number of folks named Steve that I can barely understand through their Indian accent are trying to talk me through my latest techy question.

Often, the terms that I cannot understand are simply nomenclature that is specific to the tech- has nothing at all to do with the accent.

Why are folks from India burdened with an accent so different from the Indiana accent? Why do they seem to have no issues understanding my words?

I guess the "na" at the end, or not at the end, of India is very important in linguistics. .

I have found that by working developing my OWN Indian accent...has helped me understand theres.

 

[KevinKohler]

Its all about $$$$ and playing the legal games. There are almost limitless ways around laws if the company is willing to invest. Not all companies go International just to save on taxes, and the bigger the employer, the greater chance they will loop-hole everyone and every legality in sight.

Unfortunately, this is 100% true. Even my company did it for years...illegally classifying manual labor jobs as overtime except, in opposition to the fair labor and standards act.

And got sued. But the lawsuit settled for less than they recoup in not paying OT, so go figure.

We stopped when we went public 3 years ago.

 

[Gaius46]

Actually, this really isn't true for most. Our laws and even contracts actually forbid what you are talking about. Even if at home, while my cell phone is my "desk phone", I'm allowed and told that I should politely hang up on anyone calling about a ticket after I've signed out for the day. You can't work without getting paid and most companies do not want to pay overtime like that. There are a few where it is definitely going to be beneficial though, like where managers could call up someone and ask them to sign in without having to wait for them to get to the office, which would be beneficial to both, so long as the person would normally be up for overtime (I had my last manager call me up all the time to ask me to come into the office for extra hours, and I did it to others when I worked retail).

That‘s not the experience of everyone. Since my team was spread across time zones we routinely had meetings meetings well outside normal working hours so all team members could attend. Sometimes I’d start work at 6am sometimes I’d have to attend meetings at 10pm. That was the same for the entire team though we were all salaried. As the manager of the team I was cool with people taking undocumented time off to make up for it.

 

[Helix]

If jobs aren't outsourced, they'll be automated. I see them working on that often. The problem is that the robots are horribly expensive, and it takes a shitload of hours to get them to produce the same results.

 

[roguenuke]

That‘s not the experience of everyone. Since my team was spread across time zones we routinely had meetings meetings well outside normal working hours so all team members could attend. Sometimes I’d start work at 6am sometimes I’d have to attend meetings at 10pm. That was the same for the entire team though we were all salaried though as the manager of the team I was cool with people undocumented time off to make up for it.

It does depend on the jobs, and salaried or not comes into play. But in order to switch someone to a salaried position without them agreeing to it, the employer would have to show why it was hourly and then was forced to salaried if the job duties didn't change. And contracts do matter here as well.

 

[TheParser]

Working at home has so many advantages.

1. During this pandemic, the fewer people one interacts with, the better.

2. It is so much more comfortable at home and you can dress as you wish.

3. You are safer at home than walking on our crime-ridden streets or taking public transportation where you may be prey.

*****

It IS true that many jobs are already overseas.

When I call up X company to order a shirt, for example, the representative with whom I speak is overseas. S/he is usually very polite, for s/he appreciates having a job.

 

[code1211]

I have found that by working developing my OWN Indian accent...has helped me understand theres.

LOL!

 

[molten_dragon]

Heard on the radio the other day a story about towns and states that are actually offering cash and other incentives to lure workers who can work remotely away from metro areas. Seems to be happening some for San Fran remote workers. Also seems to be happening in my state, CT...people who are able to remote work are leaving the state for cheaper places to live, while still securing their higher pay. On the surface of it, this is a no brainer. But I feel it's short sighted. These people are making an investment in a career that can be done entirely on a computer, from anywhere. Which, to my thinking, means it can be done by a dude in China or India, who is happy as a clam with making 250$ a week or so. Seems to me, what remote workers are doing, by not going back to the office, is accelerating the rate at which their jobs get shipped overseas.

What say you? Am I crazy? Or are these folks in for a rough ride over the next 5-10 years?

I'm a project manager in the auto industry. I work with a team that sits in 4 different physical locations, including some in low-cost countries (India and Mexico). I don't think remote work is going to cause companies to pick up the pace of outsourcing. Lots of companies already outsource to low-cost countries. But there's also recognition, at least in my industry, that it comes with some significant downsides, and doesn't save nearly as much money as it seems to at first. Even where remote work is concerned, there's a benefit to having your workers sitting close to the same time zone as your customers, and being part of the same (or a similar) culture.