Remember Ruby Ridge

[Montecresto]

Because he was wrong to be involved with the gun deal. He did it for the money. He got caught. He was charged.
Had none of that happened, none of the other would have had a chance to happen.

OMG, he was acquitted of wrongdoing on that. It was a false charge. The government was wrong, by ever bodies account accept yours, this is so strange.

 

[P. Kersey]

Yeah I remember ... Some criminal used his family as hostages hoping he wouldn't be arrested and they were killed.
So what?

Holding hostages? Where was this?
Link?

 

[CRUE CAB]

He was shot the first day stepping out the front door with a white flag. Why would he ever trust them again or try a second attempt at surrender with a white flag? But really Crue, this isn't my thread and it is about Randy Weaver. Koresh needs to be left for another thread.

Many similarities.
But all my contention is about Weaver is the absolute first thing that went wrong was when he got involved in a shady gun deal.
Again, you get involved with the wrong people. And come on, you know there are no "right people" at AB meetings.
You can easily get caught up in some bad things that go south fast.
We had a local fireman get involved with a bike gang down here.
He was moonlighting moving and growing pot for them. Well he gets busted, wife says she will not testify on his behalf. Wife was never heard from again.
Did she deserve that?
Get tied in with a bad crowd, you better be ready for anything.

 

[CRUE CAB]

OMG, he was acquitted of wrongdoing on that. It was a false charge. The government was wrong, by ever bodies account accept yours, this is so strange.

Yea, OJ was aquitted too.
Weavers aquital was years after the shoot out. Alot of the bad action on the part of the FBI/ATF had come out by then and it was a weak case in front of a sympathetic jury.

 

[Montecresto]

Many similarities.
But all my contention is about Weaver is the absolute first thing that went wrong was when he got involved in a shady gun deal.
Again, you get involved with the wrong people. And come on, you know there are no "right people" at AB meetings.
You can easily get caught up in some bad things that go south fast.
We had a local fireman get involved with a bike gang down here.
He was moonlighting moving and growing pot for them. Well he gets busted, wife says she will not testify on his behalf. Wife was never heard from again.
Did she deserve that?
Get tied in with a bad crowd, you better be ready for anything.

Your continual lying about the first thing that went wrong doesn't make it so. The first thing that went wrong for Randy Weaver was pissing off the FBI for refusing to be their snitch which "got the ball rolling" as you are apt to say, that culminated in the government killing his dog, his son, his wife and shooting him.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Your continual lying about the first thing that went wrong doesn't make it so. The first thing that went wrong for Randy Weaver was pissing off the FBI for refusing to be their snitch which "got the ball rolling" as you are apt to say, that culminated in the government killing his dog, his son, his wife and shooting him.

Ok, its over your head. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Montecresto]

Yea, OJ was aquitted too.
Weavers aquital was years after the shoot out. Alot of the bad action on the part of the FBI/ATF had come out by then and it was a weak case in front of a sympathetic jury.

Well I hope that if the government ever kills half of your family for a trumped up/entrapped charge, that you have the comfort of a sympathetic jury yourself.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Well I hope that if the government ever kills half of your family for a trumped up/entrapped charge, that you have the comfort of a sympathetic jury yourself.

Not worried about that happening.
I have mulitple ways of getting a hold of me, I am smart enough to be engaged in my defence, I dont trust any paperwork from the courts and always double check with the clerk of the courts.
And I keep a good lawyers phone number in my phone.
See, I have been on both sides. I know how they can screw you when they want, I have seen it. Personally.
If you let them, they will.
All I say is I think he was guilty of the inital gun charges. I could be wrong, but the only way to know is if he had gone to court.
Going from missing a court date to a full on raid takes quite a feat of stupidity.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Holding hostages? Where was this?
Link?

Do you think he gave his kids a choice to leave when he decided to make a stand against the feds?

 

[P. Kersey]

Do you think he gave his kids a choice to leave when he decided to make a stand against the feds?

Ok..I lost track at this point..are we talking about weaver still or koresh?
It doesn't matter, though really..neither of them held anyone hostage...

 

[Bob Blaylock]

All I say is I think he was guilty of the inital gun charges. I could be wrong, but the only way to know is if he had gone to court.

He did go to court on that charge, eventually. He was acquitted. Not guilty. Further, it was specifically established in court that government acted illegally in entrapping him into the act for which he was charged.

And government has already acted illegally even by making it a “crime” to shorten a shotgun below an arbitrary length. The Second Amendment forbids any infringement of the people's right to keep and bear arms, and the law which seeks to restrict short-barreled shotguns is a blatant infringement of this right, and a blatant violation of the Second Amendment.

In every way, it was the government and its agents in this case, and never Mr, Weaver, who were acting as criminals. Everything they did to try to build a criminal case against him was illegal, and everything they did in pursuit of this case was illegal.

You are too eager to hold Mr. Weaver responsible for what happened to his family, based on proven-false accusations of criminality on his part, while dismissing the responsibility of the genuine criminals who directly caused all of this.

 

[calamity]

therefore no one died..ok..got it...

People died because Weaver failed to stay in touch with his lawyer and therefore missed a court date.

 

[P. Kersey]

People died because Weaver failed to stay in touch with his lawyer and therefore missed a court date.

You are incorrect and I have already proved this same point to you pages ago, if you did not understand then, go back and re-read the Justice Dept. own report that I posted, and if you still do not understand, then you do not possess the necessary intellect to post here and should go elsewhere.

I think you're just agitating for your own amusement. I really don't think you're so stupid as to be unable to understand the Justice Dept report, but if you really cannot keep pace with the discussion, perhaps you should excuse yourself from it.
I appreciate any input you may have, but please read the thread before commenting to avoid even more redundant, mundane repetition.

I am not going to continue a discussion with somebody who has no logical point to make, and doesn't stand for anything other than running in circles to amuse himself.

 

[CRUE CAB]

In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because of his religious or political beliefs. SIMILARLY, WE FOUND INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUSTAIN THE CHARGE THAT WEAVER WAS ILLEGALLY ENTRAPPED INTO SELLING THE WEAPONS.
.

Right from the source YOU used.

 

[Montecresto]

It's so hilarious that two posters are defending the governments atrocity, when the government admits wrong doing themselves!
We need to load up and head out fellas, these boys are no use.

 

[CRUE CAB]

You are too eager to hold Mr. Weaver responsible for what happened to his family, based on proven-false accusations of criminality on his part, while dismissing the responsibility of the genuine criminals who directly caused all of this.

He is partly to blame. His bad acts that he was arrested for is what started all his problems.

 

[CRUE CAB]

It's so hilarious that two posters are defending the governments atrocity, when the government admits wrong doing themselves!
We need to load up and head out fellas, these boys are no use.

Please, let the blind men lead the blinder out of here.

 

[P. Kersey]

It's so hilarious that two posters are defending the governments atrocity, when the government admits wrong doing themselves!
We need to load up and head out fellas, these boys are no use.

concur.
Let them amuse each other running in circles.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Ok..I lost track at this point..are we talking about weaver still or koresh?
It doesn't matter, though really..neither of them held anyone hostage...

Absolutely wrong. They both did.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

He is partly to blame. His bad acts that he was arrested for is what started all his problems.

He didn't commit any “bad acts”!

The feds induced him to “illegally” shorten a shogun barrel. The manner in which this was done was illegal, and would have been so, even if what they got him to do was a legitimate crime. But it wasn't even that. The law which declares this to be “illegal” is blatantly unconstitutional. It violates the Second Amendment. So there was nothing at all wrong with shortening a shotgun barrel.

The government acted illegally when it enacted the law against short-barreled shotguns; it acted illegally when it induced Mr. Weaver to shorten a shotgun barrel, and it acted illegally when it tried to prosecute Mr. Weaver for shortening a shotgun barrel.

When government agents trespassed on Mr. Weaver's property, when they began an unprovoked gunfight, when they shot Samuel Weaver in the back, when they shot Randy Weaver in the back, when they shot Vicki Weaver in the head, they were also acting illegally.

In between, there were various other criminal improprieties to do with shifting court dates around, improperly deceiving and misdirecting Mr. Weaver to insure that he would “fail to show” at a hearing that was held at a different date than he was told; and of course, other criminal improprieties used to hold Mr. Horiuchi immune from prosecution for his crime of murdering Vicki Weaver in cold blood.

At every stage, it was the government that was acting illegally, and not Mr. Weaver. Every illegal act that led up to this mess was committed by agents of the government, and not by any of the Weaver family.

All of the criminals involved in this case were working for the government. All of the culpability for the deaths of Vicki and Samuel Weaver, for the injuries to Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, and for all the losses that the Weaver family suffered, is on the government and its agents.

 

[P. Kersey]

Absolutely wrong. They both did.

What!!??
They held people hostage and refused to let them go? I say that's not only incorrect. I say that's a lie.
Prove it.

Link?
Source?

 

[CRUE CAB]

He didn't commit any “bad acts”!

The feds induced him to “illegally” shorten a shogun barrel. The manner in which this was done was illegal, and would have been so, even if what they got him to do was a legitimate crime. But it wasn't even that. The law which declares this to be “illegal” is blatantly unconstitutional. It violates the Second Amendment. So there was nothing at all wrong with shortening a shotgun barrel.

The government acted illegally when it enacted the law against short-barreled shotguns; it acted illegally when it induced Mr. Weaver to shorten a shotgun barrel, and it acted illegally when it tried to prosecute Mr. Weaver for shortening a shotgun barrel.

When government agents trespassed on Mr. Weaver's property, when they began an unprovoked gunfight, when they shot Samuel Weaver in the back, when they shot Randy Weaver in the back, when they shot Vicki Weaver in the head, they were also acting illegally.

In between, there were various other criminal improprieties to do with shifting court dates around, improperly deceiving and misdirecting Mr. Weaver to insure that he would “fail to show” at a hearing that was held at a different date than he was told; and of course, other criminal improprieties used to hold Mr. Horiuchi immune from prosecution for his crime of murdering Vicki Weaver in cold blood.

At every stage, it was the government that was acting illegally, and not Mr. Weaver. Every illegal act that led up to this mess was committed by agents of the government, and not by any of the Weaver family.

All of the criminals involved in this case were working for the government. All of the culpability for the deaths of Vicki and Samuel Weaver, for the injuries to Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, and for all the losses that the Weaver family suffered, is on the government and its agents.

Was he arrested? Was he charged? Yes, at that point its solved in a court of law. Not a shoot out.

 

[CRUE CAB]

n October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because of his religious or political beliefs. SIMILARLY, WE FOUND INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUSTAIN THE CHARGE THAT WEAVER WAS ILLEGALLY ENTRAPPED INTO SELLING THE WEAPONS.
.

 

[calamity]

You are incorrect and I have already proved this same point to you pages ago, if you did not understand then, go back and re-read the Justice Dept. own report that I posted, and if you still do not understand, then you do not possess the necessary intellect to post here and should go elsewhere.

I think you're just agitating for your own amusement. I really don't think you're so stupid as to be unable to understand the Justice Dept report, but if you really cannot keep pace with the discussion, perhaps you should excuse yourself from it.
I appreciate any input you may have, but please read the thread before commenting to avoid even more redundant, mundane repetition.

I am not going to continue a discussion with somebody who has no logical point to make, and doesn't stand for anything other than running in circles to amuse himself.

You're reality is clearly not the same as mine or about 90% of the rest of the country. But, if you think you know better than anyone else...have at it.

 

[Buck Ewer]

What!!??
They held people hostage and refused to let them go? I say that's not only incorrect. I say that's a lie.
Prove it.

Link?
Source?

Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge. Why do you suppose that the FBI had a "hostage negotiator" if there were no hostages???

However, he did release ten more children that day, including a baby. The FBI believed there was hope that he might eventually give up, although a psychological consultant was convinced that Koresh himself would never surrender. God was not going to prison.

Then things got ugly. When Koresh realized he couldn't dial out to anyone except the FBI, he threatened more violence and hung out banners for requests for the media. Even so, he repeatedly assured anyone who asked that he had no plans for suicide. He promised to let everyone out if his message was played for the whole nation. As a show of good faith, he sent out a few more children.

Also as a show of good faith, the FBI made arrangements for the broadcast on March 2, while U. S. Marshals prepared to take people into custody. Then they awaited the hour-long tape that Koresh was making. It arrived at 8:00 a.m., along with the release of two more children and two adults.

Tell me, how children and adults are released by Koresh if they were not being held by Koresh???
He never did release the hostages that were his own offspring and they all perished either at the hand of Koresh himself or from the fires that Koresh and his followers set when he realized that there was no way he wasn't going to jail.
David Koresh and the Waco Incident — The FBI Arrives — Crime Library on truTV.com