Religious school assignment - your thoughts?

[Somerville]

While that's all well and good, the context for what they believe is largely because of these figures. Explaining the figures delivers portions of the context. Yes, in a history class, that is still important. I'd be discussing Joseph Smith before I'd get into Mormonism and the subsequent admission of Utah as a state.

WHY would you discuss Joseph Smith as a primary focus? There is a lot of stuff out there about the man but if you mention to a Grade 9 class some of what is known about Mr Smith, you would probably elicit a few complaints about your religious bigotry.

 

[Fiddytree]

WHY would you discuss Joseph Smith as a primary focus? There is a lot of stuff out there about the man but if you mention to a Grade 9 class some of what is known about Mr Smith, you would probably elicit a few complaints about your religious bigotry.

I'd imagine I'd receive complaints no matter what I would do. That's the nature of the beast. Some folks complain about the lack of religion, others complain about which religion is being discussed, others further still complain about any religion being discussed.

 

[spanky]

To properly assess this singular situation we need more info from Spike.

1. What kind of history class.
2. What was the movie.
3. What is the history book they are using.
4. Were other religious figures given as much time, were they asked to write essays and what impact did they have on their grade.

And to greater understand the impact on the student;

1. The "notes" Spike's son made.
2. The essays he wrote.

 

[Fiddytree]

To properly assess this singular situation we need more info from Spike.

1. What kind of history class.
2. What was the movie.
3. What is the history book they are using.
4. Were other religious figures given as much time, were they asked to write essays and what impact did they have on their grade.

And to greater understand the impact on the student;

1. The "notes" Spike's son made.
2. The essays he wrote.

Number 4 is difficult to get at as well. For instance, if you've ever been behind, you focus your energies on swiftness. That frequently happens. Sometimes you do one assignment for one thing, and a completely different one for another. One slightly more innocent, but still consequential problem, is area of focus. Truth be told, equality is not usually given on a unit basis. Some units receive more attention than others, sometimes from a subjective point of view (ie. the teacher's interest). This could strictly be because of a religious bias bent, or it could simply be the instructor's focus. Most of your instructors have probably done this, perhaps without your knowledge. Teachers often-times also bring their expertise into the subject matter. A combat vet from Afghanistan that was a social studies teacher at a state high school focused on foreign policy and military matters, a bit out of proportion to other subject matters. He was also a bit more interested in Middle Eastern and Eastern culture/religious philosophies. I was more into political and intellectual history, so I tried to have students grapple more with ideas and politics.

Now, this instructor could entirely have their head up their butt about the Abraham tradition, and that certainly can and has happened. However, there's a great deal of complications involved.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Rather I think it simplifies the teaching of a subject. The argument that those who promote the teaching of Judeo-Christian beliefs in American public schools constantly use is the undeniable influence of said beliefs on Western culture. How does discussion of Moses aid discussion of the influence of the religious beliefs?

So you're asking how removing Moses from a lesson on Judaism or Christianity would complicate and possibly hinder teaching the subject? Seems pretty self explanatory

 

[Somerville]

So you're asking how removing Moses from a lesson on Judaism or Christianity would complicate and possibly hinder teaching the subject? Seems pretty self explanatory

No, I am not "asking how removing Moses from a lesson on Judaism or Christianity would complicate" but rather I'm asking how ADDING Moses aids discussion of the subject.

The bolded words exemplify the problem in discussing this subject. What is the subject?

If the subject is to teach students about the Jewish faith, Moses is undoubtedly of major importance but if the subject is the influence of Judeo-Christian religious beliefs on modern society, then Moses becomes much less central.

 

[Fiddytree]

Rather I think it simplifies the teaching of a subject. The argument that those who promote the teaching of Judeo-Christian beliefs in American public schools constantly use is the undeniable influence of said beliefs on Western culture. How does discussion of Moses aid discussion of the influence of the religious beliefs?

Well, Somerville, it's a lot like adding persons to the discussion of political tides. You could certainly discuss the intellectual acceptance toward American independence in broader terms, but it would benefit us more to discuss the individuals most crucial to their development.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

The bolded words exemplify the problem in discussing this subject. What is the subject?

If the subject is to teach students about the Jewish faith, Moses is undoubtedly of major importance but if the subject is the influence of Judeo-Christian religious beliefs on modern society, then Moses becomes much less central.

I imagine the later would would benefit from an overview of the religion, as well.

 

[spanky]

I wonder if the movie included the fact that when Moses brought the 10 commands off the mountain, you know with the command "thou shalt no kill" and found many of the Egyptian refugees worshipping Amun, that he directed the Levites to kill them all and the death toll was 3000.

THAT would be some great instruction on the historical effects of Abrahamic religions on the world.

 

[Somerville]

I imagine the later would would benefit from an overview of the religion, as well.

Aunt Spiker's OP

So - my 12 year old just complete an essay (or - a series of short-essays) that he had to do based on a movie they watched in world history on Moses (public school district - he's in the 8th grade) . . . as they watched a movie about Moses they were to write down numerous 'key points' from the biblical story of Moses and then select several to write into a paragraph or so and turn it in for a grade.

This would seem to indicate a focus on the character of Moses, a focus that would indicate a bit more than "an overview of the religion"

 

[spanky]

Aunt Spiker's OP



This would seem to indicate a focus on the character of Moses, a focus that would indicate a bit more than "an overview of the religion"

I'm trying to think what criteria the teacher used for awarding "grades" on those essays.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

This would seem to indicate a focus on the character of Moses, a focus that would indicate a bit more than "an overview of the religion"

I'm not exactly sure what your point is: I could see an overview focusing on moses. Also, if you were teaching a class on the actual religion, clearly it would be more indepth than an overview.

Again, I am failing to see your point

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I'm trying to think what criteria the teacher used for awarding "grades" on those essays.

Spanky, everyone has already acknowledged that the suitability of such material is highly dependent on how it is presented. So there seems little point in harping on an issue NO ONE is disagreeing with

 

[spanky]

Spanky, everyone has already acknowledged that the suitability of such material is highly dependent on how it is presented. So there seems little point in harping on an issue NO ONE is disagreeing with

I wasn't harping on it, I pondered it. Do you know the difference?

You mention it is an issue or point no one is disagreeing with, can you you show me where the fact the teacher asked for several essays on which they were to be graded, meaning it was instrumental in the grade they got for the entire "history" class, was discussed and evaluated?

 

[Somerville]

I'm not exactly sure what your point is: I could see an overview focusing on moses. Also, if you were teaching a class on the actual religion, clearly it would be more indepth than an overview.

Again, I am failing to see your point

I'll keep trying.

How is an 8th grade history class, supposedly focusing on world history and the influence of Judeo-Christian religion on the world, to have the time to cover all that the subject entails if they not only spend one class period looking a movie about one fictional character but then have assignments discussing that character. I remember history classes where we weren't able to finish a textbook during the year simply because the subject was so complex that covering at least most of the field used up the year.

Why focus on Moses? How does he come into a discussion of the influence of the faith on other cultures? Why not David and Solomon? Why not Jesus or Paul and Peter? Paul and Peter most certainly had a much greater role in the growth of the faith than Moses.

 

[Fiddytree]

I'll keep trying.

How is an 8th grade history class, supposedly focusing on world history and the influence of Judeo-Christian religion on the world, to have the time to cover all that the subject entails if they not only spend one class period looking a movie about one fictional character but then have assignments discussing that character. I remember history classes where we weren't able to finish a textbook during the year simply because the subject was so complex that covering at least most of the field used up the year.

Why focus on Moses? How does he come into a discussion of the influence of the faith on other cultures? Why not David and Solomon? Why not Jesus or Paul and Peter? Paul and Peter most certainly had a much greater role in the growth of the faith than Moses.

Choices are made. Videos are either available or they are not (I made regular use of YouTube, as the district wasn't much for documentary films on many subjects), sometimes you focus on one aspect to make up for material not covered as in depth as you wanted in the textbook, etc. Units are restricted playgrounds for the instructor to figure out where to go, how to do it.

We can argue about proportion, that's cool. But Moses is regularly put on the top of the pile for religious aspects in world history textbooks. Now why not focus on Jesus? Because it might have been on a subject that predated Christianity and the Roman Empire under Augustus, like Judaism.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

You mention it is an issue or point no one is disagreeing with, can you you show me where the fact the teacher asked for several essays on which they were to be graded, meaning it was instrumental in the grade they got for the entire "history" class, was discussed and evaluated?

What?

 

[Fiddytree]

What?

He's talking about the assignment. This is easily enough explained. First, the film, perhaps and probably a documentary, has a number of "points" or more specifically, things they wanted to include in the film for the viewer to know). The student writes down whatever amount the instructor wants. Then, the student has to take a number of those parts, and construct a paragraph from the assorted points. This keeps the student on task, aware of the film's subject, and asks them to develop writing skills by synthesizing material learned to create a new product (something the education folks like to focus on a great deal).

In other words, the activity itself is rather common, especially with the subject matter and the figures under study. Additionally, this is usually an easier assignment to grade in comparison with others.

Again, the point of contention is mostly with to what extent the instructor selected materials which were believing in the story of Moses (ie. telling the viewer it is true versus "believers in Judaism say that" or "according to___ it is said that"), and to what extent the viewer literally believes it to be true as a result of the instructor's words or materials.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I'll keep trying.

How is an 8th grade history class, supposedly focusing on world history and the influence of Judeo-Christian religion on the world, to have the time to cover all that the subject entails if they not only spend one class period looking a movie about one fictional character but then have assignments discussing that character. I remember history classes where we weren't able to finish a textbook during the year simply because the subject was so complex that covering at least most of the field used up the year.

Well, going from the little bit we know, it would largely depend on what exactly was being taught, the teacher, and how they were covering it. So it's hard to critique the inner working of a lesson plan that i know absolutely nothing about and how it fits in the larger context of the class

Why focus on Moses? How does he come into a discussion of the influence of the faith on other cultures? Why not David and Solomon? Why not Jesus or Paul and Peter? Paul and Peter most certainly had a much greater role in the growth of the faith than Moses.

we don't even know if such people weren't addressed, who was actually addressed, and under what context. But going from what we do know, showing a movie on moses doesn't raise any red flags with me. Again, could it be a problem if taught wrong? As every participant in this thread has stated numerous times: Yes. Does that mean it is the problem you seem to assume? No

 

[spanky]

He's talking about the assignment. This is easily enough explained. First, the film, perhaps and probably a documentary, has a number of "points" or more specifically, things they wanted to include in the film for the viewer to know). The student writes down whatever amount the instructor wants. Then, the student has to take a number of those parts, and construct a paragraph from the assorted points. This keeps the student on task, aware of the film's subject, and asks them to develop writing skills by synthesizing material learned to create a new product (something the education folks like to focus on a great deal).

In other words, the activity itself is rather common, especially with the subject matter and the figures under study. Additionally, this is usually an easier assignment to grade in comparison with others.

A lot of assumptions there, but again I think we need to know and see the film in situ to know exactly where this assignment was going.

 

[Fiddytree]

The activity itself is normal, and shouldn't really be seen with suspicion. What the instructor did with it is a point of contention.

 

[sangha]

I'll keep trying.

How is an 8th grade history class, supposedly focusing on world history and the influence of Judeo-Christian religion on the world, to have the time to cover all that the subject entails if they not only spend one class period looking a movie about one fictional character but then have assignments discussing that character. I remember history classes where we weren't able to finish a textbook during the year simply because the subject was so complex that covering at least most of the field used up the year.

Why focus on Moses? How does he come into a discussion of the influence of the faith on other cultures? Why not David and Solomon? Why not Jesus or Paul and Peter? Paul and Peter most certainly had a much greater role in the growth of the faith than Moses.

Also, Jesus is specific to Christianity. Moses is an important figure in all three of the Abrahamic religions

 

[spanky]

Also, Jesus is specific to Christianity. Moses is an important figure in all three of the Abrahamic religions

Moses is a mythological figure. The salient point of this discussion is how a mythological figure was presented in a class on World History. Was he presented as fact or was he presented as he is seen by most non religious historians. More importantly, what kind of essays were demanded of the students and on what criteria were grades based?

 

[Cephus]

1) So it isn't necessary? Then why did you do it? There was no need to state that religious people are gullible when you should know that that is your opinion and not a fact.

gullible - naive and easily deceived or tricked

Sounds about right to me.

2) let's see how I can explain this to you. Clearly you haven't been paying attention, or more likely you are ignoring the important points made earlier. You SHOULD use religious texts in a history class for a CULTURE context. To think that there is a more "valid" source to get to fundamental values of a society is an idiotic opinion, probably conceived through a subjective view that religion is bad...and not thoroughly thought through in terms of how older societies expressed themselves and how much bigger a role religion might have played.

First off, I have no problem with the Bible being used as literature in an assignment, we've strayed away from discussing the assignment in this thread to talking about the Bible as a source of historically-accurate information. The Bible is a book of mythology with some historical data sprinkled in. As such, if you want to talk about the stories, it's as valuable as talking about Aesop's fables. You can certainly discuss how those myths impacted society. I don't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with a teacher *IF*, and I'm not saying they're doing it in this case, but *IF* they tried to push their own personal religious beliefs on students, or tried to teach that the Bible is anything more than it actually is.

That is all. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

 

[Fiddytree]

Moses is a mythological figure. The salient point of this discussion is how a mythological figure was presented in a class on World History. Was he presented as fact or was he presented as he is seen by most non religious historians. More importantly, what kind of essays were demanded of the students and on what criteria were grades based?

Why the qualifier "non-religious" historians?