Religious Freedom, Selective Reading, And Gay Rights [W:47, :79]

[WCH]

It is the governments duty to make sure the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is protected. that's really their only purpose

There would be no need to create such a class if some people weren't so hell bent on discriminating against them.

If that were true, the doors would be wide open for all sorts of deviant behavior. Pretty sure homosexuality wasn't one of the liberties.

It's wrong to create protected classes for the same reasoning. In these cases, it deprived others of their life, liberty and happiness. [simply for refusing to bake a cake]

Those couples could have sought out another business that would serve their needs in either case. Instead, they chose to make other's lives miserable.

 

[roguenuke]

Since the lesbians had been customers for some time, I seriously doubt that scenario.

The bakers would have known right off the bat.

Where exactly do you get your information from? Please provide links. The bakery owners themselves have not said that any of this information was wrong. They do not contradict this.

It is possible that the bakers did not realize they were a couple and simply thought they were friends. It is not at all uncommon to see female friends or relatives frequently shop places together. Heck, when my sister lived with me, we went out shopping often. I've only been asked once if we were a couple (at the bar we went to when in Hawaii).

Just because two people are out together in public, even a couple, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone that they are actually a couple. Many times, people see what they want to see.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

If that were true, the doors would be wide open for all sorts of deviant behavior. Pretty sure homosexuality wasn't one of the liberties.

It's wrong to create protected classes for the same reasoning. In these cases, it deprived others of their life, liberty and happiness. [simply for refusing to bake a cake]

Those couples could have sought out another business that would serve their needs in either case. Instead, they chose to make other's lives miserable.

LOL. So a baker bakes cakes all day, this is his job. In the first 4 days of the work week he bakes cakes for straight people, and on the friday he bakes a cake for a homosexual. You're right, he's practically a slave whose life is ruined. I don't think hyperbole is really a good way to win people over to your side. Doing the job you told the public you do is not making your life miserable.

The reasons public accommodation laws exist is evident from our history. It's not unlikely that in small towns of predominantly christians people like homosexuals, blacks or any other despised group would not be able to get service anywhere. I know you think that christians have the right to starve people out of town, but they don't. Everyone doesn't live in NYC and there isn't always another option for every good and service.

If you were a christian minority in a small town and you couldn't get services or goods anywhere because of your faith, you'd throw a hissy fit.

 

[roguenuke]

LOL. So a baker bakes cakes all day, this is his job. In the first 4 days of the work week he bakes cakes for straight people, and on the friday he bakes a cake for a homosexual. You're right, he's practically a slave whose life is ruined. I don't think hyperbole is really a good way to win people over to your side. Doing the job you told the public you do is not making your life miserable.

The reasons public accommodation laws exist is evident from our history. It's not unlikely that in small towns of predominantly christians people like homosexuals, blacks or any other despised group would not be able to get service anywhere. I know you think that christians have the right to starve people out of town, but they don't. Everyone doesn't live in NYC and there isn't always another option for every good and service.

If you were a christian minority in a small town and you couldn't get services or goods anywhere because of your faith, you'd throw a hissy fit.

There is a good example of this even today.

Justice Department sues fundamentalist Mormon sect for discrimination - CSMonitor.com

Do non-Mormons face discrimination in Southern Utah? | The Independent | St George and Southern Utah News, Events and Culture

And just to clarify, I don't have anything against Mormons, but there are places where Mormons do basically run the towns/areas and discriminate against those who aren't Mormons. I am unsure why it is seen so prominently with Mormons but not other religions in the US. Likely because they were able to establish such a stronghold in places in the West that other areas of the country are simply impractical to establish and maintain. It could also simply be that other places just assume that everyone thinks like them or everyone is Christian. It could be the way the Mormon church operates, considering the expectations that people of that religion have on them.

 

[WorldWatcher]

No. First it didn't say they "sat down" to discuss the cake. Here is what was said in there.



Sweet Cakes By Melissa, Oregon Bakery, Under State Investigation For Anti-Gay Discrimination

This does not say anything about them getting to the cake design prior to them being denied their cake. Please provide actual evidence that it was the cake design and not the fact that they were two women getting married that led to the refusal, as you claimed originally. Even the owners of the shop admit it was because they were lesbians, not because of any cake design disagreement.

Since the lesbians had been customers for some time, I seriously doubt that scenario.

The bakers would have known right off the bat.

Where exactly do you get your information from? Please provide links. It is possible that the bakers did not realize they were a couple and simply thought they were friends. It is not at all uncommon to see female friends or relatives frequently shop places together. Heck, when my sister lived with me, we went out shopping often. I've only been asked once if we were a couple (at the bar we went to when in Hawaii).

Just because two people are out together in public, even a couple, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone that they are actually a couple. Many times, people see what they want to see.

Again he's misstating the facts of the case.


The fact was the the previous purchase had been in November of 2010 when Sweetcakes had designed, created, and decorated a wedding cake for Cryer's MOTHER Cheryl McPherson for which Cryer paid for the cake.


Finding of Facts from BOLI ruling:
media.oregonlive.com/business_impact/other/BOLI-sweetcakes.pdf


>>>>

 

[WCH]

Where exactly do you get your information from? Please provide links. The bakery owners themselves have not said that any of this information was wrong. They do not contradict this.

It is possible that the bakers did not realize they were a couple and simply thought they were friends. It is not at all uncommon to see female friends or relatives frequently shop places together. Heck, when my sister lived with me, we went out shopping often. I've only been asked once if we were a couple (at the bar we went to when in Hawaii).

Just because two people are out together in public, even a couple, doesn't mean it is obvious to everyone that they are actually a couple. Many times, people see what they want to see.

If it doesn't make sense it's usually false or a lie.

I've been on this world for some time now and can spot Gays relatively easily. Given where these bakers lived, they too were use to seeing Gays.

They went in to discuss the cake and THEN the bakers found out it was for a Gay wedding.

BTW: it say "reportedly"

 

[WCH]

LOL. So a baker bakes cakes all day, this is his job. In the first 4 days of the work week he bakes cakes for straight people, and on the friday he bakes a cake for a homosexual. You're right, he's practically a slave whose life is ruined. I don't think hyperbole is really a good way to win people over to your side. Doing the job you told the public you do is not making your life miserable.

The reasons public accommodation laws exist is evident from our history. It's not unlikely that in small towns of predominantly christians people like homosexuals, blacks or any other despised group would not be able to get service anywhere. I know you think that christians have the right to starve people out of town, but they don't. Everyone doesn't live in NYC and there isn't always another option for every good and service.

If you were a christian minority in a small town and you couldn't get services or goods anywhere because of your faith, you'd throw a hissy fit.

They were going to throw the Denver baker into prison for not baking a stinking cake. You think that's not making his life miserable?

Neither of these cases were rural.

IMO, these laws are antiquated.

 

[roguenuke]

If it doesn't make sense it's usually false or a lie.

I've been on this world for some time now and can spot Gays relatively easily. Given where these bakers lived, they too were use to seeing Gays.

They went in to discuss the cake and THEN the bakers found out it was for a Gay wedding.

BTW: it say "reportedly"

Again, there is no evidence that they frequently went to the bakery or that there was any indication that they were a couple prior to the appointment they had set up to discuss the cake for the wedding. Plus, the bakers have spoke about this themselves and not denied that they denied the lesbian couple service. They simply claim it is their religious freedom to deny service to same sex couples when it comes to wedding cakes.

 

[roguenuke]

They were going to throw the Denver baker into prison for not baking a stinking cake. You think that's not making his life miserable?

Neither of these cases were rural.

IMO, these laws are antiquated.

Please provide link that they were truly going to "throw the Denver baker" into prison.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

They were going to throw the Denver baker into prison for not baking a stinking cake. You think that's not making his life miserable?

Neither of these cases were rural.

IMO, these laws are antiquated.

If he had provided the service he advertises his day would be exactly like every other day and he wouldn't have had a single speed bump. What does this being rural or not have to do with it? Are you saying you support public accommodation in small towns but not large ones?

What I find so hilariously disturbing about you 'born agains' is that you've somehow convinced yourself that even seeing a 'sinner' is against your religion. Jesus lived among sinners and preached to them. Do you think when he was distributing bread and fish he asked what everyone's sexual orientation was? No, he fed hungry people.

You're white, christian and privileged, so of course you have no empathy for the struggles of anyone else. How would you like it if you had to move because of work and your new town was predominantly black, and all of the black business owners in the town argued that having to see your white ass makes them miserable, so you're not allowed to participate in the town's economy? Maybe you could open your own grocery store to cater to the 5 white people in town. Oops, that's right, the real estate agents don't want to see your white ass either, nope.

 

[WCH]

Please provide link that they were truly going to "throw the Denver baker" into prison.

Baker Faces Prison for Refusing to Bake Same-Sex Wedding Cake - Breitbart


I'm not going to argue this point any longer. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[roguenuke]

If that were true, the doors would be wide open for all sorts of deviant behavior. Pretty sure homosexuality wasn't one of the liberties.

It's wrong to create protected classes for the same reasoning. In these cases, it deprived others of their life, liberty and happiness. [simply for refusing to bake a cake]

Those couples could have sought out another business that would serve their needs in either case. Instead, they chose to make other's lives miserable.

"Deviant behavior" is subjective. The doors are already open to all sorts of "deviant behavior". Most behavior that I'm sure you and/or others would view as "deviant" is legal. Those couples did seek another business to serve their needs. They also filed complaints with the state commission of commerce though to expose the bakeries as breaking the law. It is no different than a black person/couple, white person/couple, certain faith person/couple, or those with certain disabilities reporting businesses that violate public accommodation laws.

 

[Paperview]

If it doesn't make sense it's usually false or a lie.

I've been on this world for some time now and can spot Gays relatively easily. Given where these bakers lived, they too were use to seeing Gays.

They went in to discuss the cake and THEN the bakers found out it was for a Gay wedding.

BTW: it say "reportedly"

"spot gays easily" ha ha.


How about you read the actual details?

It wasn't even the two prospective brides that walked in for the cake tasting and ordering for the wedding. In was one lesbian and her mother.

http://media.oregonlive.com/business_impact/other/BOLI-sweetcakes.pdf

 

[minnie616]

A few sentences taken from The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice also applies to gays as well as to women's reproductive rights.

Religious Liberty
...

The freedom of religion is indeed our first freedom and a universally treasured American value dating back to the founding of our nation. As a diverse coalition of religious denominations and religiously-affiliated organizations, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice has an intimate understanding of the important role faith plays in one’s personal and public life. ...
However, the First Amendment makes clear that public policy is not to be based on faith alone – in a religiously diverse, pluralistic society, favoring any one religious worldview is wrong and inherently biased. Good policy is policy that allows for all people – regardless of their religious identity – to follow their own faith and conscience when directing the course of their life. ... Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual.

Religious Liberty | Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice

 

[WCH]

If he had provided the service he advertises his day would be exactly like every other day and he wouldn't have had a single speed bump. What does this being rural or not have to do with it? Are you saying you support public accommodation in small towns but not large ones?

What I find so hilariously disturbing about you 'born agains' is that you've somehow convinced yourself that even seeing a 'sinner' is against your religion. Jesus lived among sinners and preached to them. Do you think when he was distributing bread and fish he asked what everyone's sexual orientation was? No, he fed hungry people.

You're white, christian and privileged, so of course you have no empathy for the struggles of anyone else. How would you like it if you had to move because of work and your new town was predominantly black, and all of the black business owners in the town argued that having to see your white ass makes them miserable, so you're not allowed to participate in the town's economy? Maybe you could open your own grocery store to cater to the 5 white people in town. Oops, that's right, the real estate agents don't want to see your white ass either, nope.

You can stop with the personal attacks.

 

[roguenuke]

Baker Faces Prison for Refusing to Bake Same-Sex Wedding Cake - Breitbart


I'm not going to argue this point any longer. It's getting ridiculous.

Biased source, not to mention exaggerating. From the article you linked:

Under a Colorado law in effect in 2012, Phillips could be sent to jail for up to 12 months for his decision. Although that law has been repealed, it is possible that he could still be criminally prosecuted.

There is no legitimate evidence that he truly faced jail time. Especially after he said he would no longer sell wedding cakes anyway.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You can stop with the personal attacks.

I don't see any personal attacks. I see someone who can't muster a rebuttal because he knows how pissed he'd be if he were on the wrong side of the very discrimination he advocates for. Keep hatin' like Christ did, right?

 

[Paperview]

Biased source, not to mention exaggerating. From the article you linked:



There is no legitimate evidence that he truly faced jail time. Especially after he said he would no longer sell wedding cakes anyway.

Yup. Breitbart. heh.

https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/charlie-craig-and-david-mullins-v-masterpiece-cakeshop

"The Commission’s order affirmed previous determinations that Masterpiece’s refusal to sell Mullins and Craig a wedding cake constituted discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in violation of Colorado law. The Commission also ordered Masterpiece Cakeshop to change its company policies, provide “comprehensive staff training” regarding public accommodations discrimination, and provide quarterly reports for the next two years regarding steps it has taken to come into compliance and whether it has turned away any prospective customers.

Status: In July 2014, Masterpiece Cakeshop appealed to the Colorado Court of Appeals. Briefing is underway."

 

[WCH]

"spot gays easily" ha ha.


How about you read the actual details?

It wasn't even the two prospective brides that walked in for the cake tasting and ordering for the wedding. In was one lesbian and her mother.

http://media.oregonlive.com/business_impact/other/BOLI-sweetcakes.pdf

Thanks for posting this. It shows that they had gotten all the way to the cake tasting and design phase before the bakers found out it was for a SSM.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

"Fish and bread for everyone! Except homosexuals, that would violate my religion!" ~ Jesus

 

[WCH]

I don't see any personal attacks. I see someone who can't muster a rebuttal because he knows how pissed he'd be if he were on the wrong side of the very discrimination he advocates for. Keep hatin' like Christ did, right?

No I see personal attacks against my faith and my 'ass'

Not baking a cake is not discrimination...sorry. The Gays couples were the 'asses' here.

 

[roguenuke]

Thanks for posting this. It shows that they had gotten all the way to the cake tasting and design phase before the bakers found out it was for a SSM.

How far into the preparations for the cake do you think that is? It is basically the first step, from what I understand.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

No I see personal attacks against my faith and my 'ass'

Not baking a cake is not discrimination...sorry. The Gays couples were the 'asses' here.

Not baking a cake is not discrimination...
But baking a cake is enslavement?

Fascinating. I guess I missed the part of the constitution where it said christians have the right to run minority groups out of town.

 

[CriticalThought]

No I see personal attacks against my faith and my 'ass'

Not baking a cake is not discrimination...sorry. The Gays couples were the 'asses' here.

This from the guy who never misses a chance to call gay people "sexual deviants". :roll:

Religious beliefs do not give any of us a right to ignore the law or to harm others because of who they are. Get over it.

 

[WCH]

How far into the preparations for the cake do you think that is? It is basically the first step, from what I understand.

You want to assume they just walked into the baker, said "we want a SSM cake" and got denied. That's not how it played out.

They prearranged that meeting as former customers.

Did they know the bakers were Christians and probably would want to provide this service? Who knows.