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Regrettable aspect of trial

joko104

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It is regrettable that there were no African-Americans involved in the trial process. 1 Latino on the jury, the rest white. All white lawyers on both sides. White judge. The race-baiters predictably seized on this. Seminole county is 88% white, so the jury makeup not a surprise. But it is regrettable.
 

MaggieD

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It is regrettable that there were no African-Americans involved in the trial process. 1 Latino on the jury, the rest white. All white lawyers on both sides. White judge. The race-baiters predictably seized on this. Seminole county is 88% white, so the jury makeup not a surprise. But it is regrettable.

Why? I understand where you're coming from....but we could remove EVERY 'questionable' aspect of this trial -- the jury make-up, the jury instructions, the "whatever" -- and, as long as the verdict was Not Guilty? Race baiters would seize on something else.

I couldn't be any more disgusted about the aftermath of the trial than if he'd been found guilty.
 

greyhat

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It is regrettable that there were no African-Americans involved in the trial process. 1 Latino on the jury, the rest white. All white lawyers on both sides. White judge. The race-baiters predictably seized on this. Seminole county is 88% white, so the jury makeup not a surprise. But it is regrettable.

Ben Crump isn't white...both sides picked the jury.
 

CanadaJohn

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I'd say it's to be expected when you only have 6 jurors empanelled and 6 alternates.

I could ask, why no men just as easily. How could 6 women know from experience what was in the mind of a man following a potential criminal and in the mind of a man being followed.

The point I'm trying to make is that jurors aren't supposed to make judgements based on their own lives and life experiences - they're supposed to review the evidence and make a dispassionate decision based on the facts. As a result, they could all be martians and still be capable of coming to a just verdict.
 

ThePlayDrive

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The point I'm trying to make is that jurors aren't supposed to make judgements based on their own lives and life experiences - they're supposed to review the evidence and make an impassioned decision based on the facts.
But they do make judgments based on their own lives and experiences. This is unavoidable as our lives and experiences factor into all of our decisions. In fact, in the CNN interview with Juror B37, she said that she thought poorly of a witness, in part, because the witness used phrases and terms she didn't understand. She also commented on the witnesses culture as if it was foreign to her and thus, she could not identify with it. Even further, the juror admitted that identifying with Zimmerman affected her decision. In both cases, her life and experiences impacted her vote. After all, how could they not? Our lives and experiences affect our evaluation of whether or not other people's stories are credible.
 

CanadaJohn

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But they do make judgments based on their own lives and experiences. This is unavoidable as our lives and experiences factor into all of our decisions. In fact, in the CNN interview with Juror B37, she said that she thought poorly of a witness, in part, because the witness used phrases and terms she didn't understand. She also commented on the witnesses culture as if it was foreign to her and thus, she could not identify with it. Even further, the juror admitted that identifying with Zimmerman affected her decision. In both cases, her life and experiences impacted her vote. After all, how could they not? Our lives and experiences affect our evaluation of whether or not other people's stories are credible.

What I meant was evaluating the evidence is the role a juror plays - a juror is not there to bring their life's experience into the discussion and decision making process. Much of what you've said simply relates to how the case of the prosecution was presented. Granted, you can't choose your witnesses, but surely you can help them understand the process and what to expect.

The two key prosecution witnesses - the girl on the phone and the assistant medical officer were both awful witnesses - very combative, not responsive, and their ability to speak in understandable English was terrible.
 

ThePlayDrive

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What I meant was evaluating the evidence is the role a juror plays - a juror is not there to bring their life's experience into the discussion and decision making process. Much of what you've said simply relates to how the case of the prosecution was presented. Granted, you can't choose your witnesses, but surely you can help them understand the process and what to expect.
I know what you meant, but I'm saying that since jurors experiences do play a role in how they evaluate evidence, then it makes to ensure that juries are filled with people who have a diversity of experiences with race, gender, et al. as those experiences will color how they perceive the credibility of witnesses, defendants, victims and other aspects of the case.
 

SMTA

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Why? I understand where you're coming from....but we could remove EVERY 'questionable' aspect of this trial -- the jury make-up, the jury instructions, the "whatever" -- and, as long as the verdict was Not Guilty? Race baiters would seize on something else.

I couldn't be any more disgusted about the aftermath of the trial than if he'd been found guilty.

Charles Manson had an all white jury, never actually killed anyone himself, and he was found guilty.

The US judicial system works very well overall.
 

joko104

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My OP isn't a judgment or criticism, but it is one of those regrettable aspects - particularly the jury makeup. I'm looking at it from the eyes of the other side, so-to-speak - and in the context of the narrative the media is telling.

I'm among the very first to have opposed the summary condemnation of GZ on this (though few remember that far back). My comment is about political and PR aspects, not the trial outcome.
 

ThePlayDrive

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The US judicial system works very well overall.
This is inaccurate. Even Mark O'Mara and Don West admitted that the judicial system consistently fails black Americans. The inequity of the judicial system is only disputed by those who are uninformed.
 

MaggieD

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This is inaccurate. Even Mark O'Mara and Don West admitted that the judicial system consistently fails black Americans. The inequity of the judicial system is only disputed by those who are uninformed.

You must mean when O'Mara said this:

If George Zimmerman were black, he would never have been charged with a crime in this case.
 

SMTA

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This is inaccurate. Even Mark O'Mara and Don West admitted that the judicial system consistently fails black Americans. The inequity of the judicial system is only disputed by those who are uninformed.

Prove it.
 

SMTA

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What will you take as proof? I'd like to know if your standards are reasonable or designed to be impossible to meet.

Prove how unfair the US judicial system is to blacks compared to other races, just as you stated.

You made the assertion, so now you need to. figure out how to substantiate it.

Simply parroting the words of someone else, as you did, carries no weight without evidence to prove it.

Prove it.
 

ThePlayDrive

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Prove how unfair the US judicial system is to blacks compared to other races, just as you stated.

You made the assertion, so now you need to. figure out how to substantiate it.

Simply parroting the words of someone else, as you did, carries no weight without evidence to prove it.

Prove it.
Look, I have absolutely zero stake in whether or not you accept the truth I've stated. This is a request that you made - not me. Now, if you would like me to "prove" what I said, then tell me what your standards of proof are. Without those standards, I have no idea what you consider "proof" and thus, I risk wasting energy meeting a standard of proof that you do not subscribe to. That is a reasonable request and your resistance to it is making me think that you intend to reject whatever I offer which is why you don't want to specify your standards. So give me your standards or exit the conversation. It's your choice.
 

SMTA

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Look, I have absolutely zero stake in whether or not you accept the truth I've stated. This is a request that you made - not me. Now, if you would like me to "prove" what I said, then tell me what your standards of proof are. Without those standards, I have no idea what you consider "proof" and thus, I risk wasting energy meeting a standard of proof that you do not subscribe to. That is a reasonable request and your resistance to it is making me think that you intend to reject whatever I offer which is why you don't want to specify your standards. So give me your standards or exit the conversation. It's your choice.

Numbers.

Since you are standing on the statement of someone else, and have purported it as gospel fact, the burden is on you.

It is obvious to me that you are parroting another persons words as fact (without having a clue about the authenticity) simply because you believe them with zero proof.

It is very obvious that you have no idea about how to research or understand the proof logic.

Fell free to retract your erroneous assertion at any time.
 

CanadaJohn

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I know what you meant, but I'm saying that since jurors experiences do play a role in how they evaluate evidence, then it makes to ensure that juries are filled with people who have a diversity of experiences with race, gender, et al. as those experiences will color how they perceive the credibility of witnesses, defendants, victims and other aspects of the case.

Only if they're not doing their job.
 

longview

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Only if they're not doing their job.
Once the doors to the jury room close, just about all life experience is brought to the
table.
While the courts are no longer obligated to tell the jury, they have within their purview,
the right to not only judge the evidence, but the law itself.
None of this was necessary in the GZ trial, as the evidence supported
Zimmerman's version of events.
 

ThePlayDrive

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Numbers.

Since you are standing on the statement of someone else, and have purported it as gospel fact, the burden is on you.

It is obvious to me that you are parroting another persons words as fact (without having a clue about the authenticity) simply because you believe them with zero proof.

It is very obvious that you have no idea about how to research or understand the proof logic.

Fell free to retract your erroneous assertion at any time.
"Numbers"? LOL. How vague. And you are correct, I made an argument so the burden is on me; I never contested that. However, you asked for the proof so the burden is on you to define proof. You have failed which makes it exceptionally clear to me that you have absolutely zero intention of accepting anything that I offer as "proof". You intend to reject everything no matter what is provided. However, since it's early and I'm benevolent, I'll still provide you with some of the research I've acquired over the years on the off chance that you are genuine and want to educate yourself.

1. Review of literature on racial disparities in sentencing: http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf

2. Racial disparities in charging and sentencing: Racial Disparity in Federal Criminal Charging and Its Sentencing Consequences by M. Marit Rehavi, Sonja B. Starr :: SSRN

3. Racial bias against blacks in marijuana arrests: The War on Marijuana in Black and White: Report | American Civil Liberties Union

4. Racial bias and the death penalty: Death Penalty and Race | Amnesty International USA

5. NYC stop-and-frisk program and racial profiling: De Blasio Stop Frisk Reform

6. Since you like numbers apparently, here's a link with quite a few of them as they relate to inequity in the justice system: The Top 10 Most Startling Facts About People of Color and Criminal Justice in the United States | Center for American Progress

Let me anticipate your response: None of this proves anything! Maybe black people are just worse than white people! LOL.
 

ThePlayDrive

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Only if they're not doing their job.
LOL, no. People cannot help letting their experiences affect their judgment. That's just how the human brain works. When you judge someone as "credible", you are evaluating them according to standards of credibility that you've acquired over your entire life. This includes the prejudices you've acquired over your lifetime. Putting your head in the sand as your doing doesn't change that. There's no need to fear the truth.
 

ThePlayDrive

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You must mean when O'Mara said this:
"I have represented young black males for 30 years. I know better than most people, better than most of the people who are complaining how young black males are treated in the criminal justice system. And we need to fix it. We need to address those problems." - Mark O'Mara

CNN.com - Transcripts
 

tech30528

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To suggest that the jury should have had more racial minority representation is to suggest that the case should have included a racial component. That in itself is racist. The case was about a guy who was in danger of great harm or death shooting his assailant. Two people, not a black guy and a white guy. Jurors are supposed to be impartial. They were chosen by both sides. People who continue to think the outcome should have been different because of pigment should take a good look in the mirror.
 

CRUE CAB

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It is regrettable that there were no African-Americans involved in the trial process. 1 Latino on the jury, the rest white. All white lawyers on both sides. White judge. The race-baiters predictably seized on this. Seminole county is 88% white, so the jury makeup not a surprise. But it is regrettable.
Regrettable in what way? He was not convicted?
I am sure in the pool of around 500 people, there were blacks. Seemingly none of them were wanted by either side.
 

CanadaJohn

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LOL, no. People cannot help letting their experiences affect their judgment. That's just how the human brain works. When you judge someone as "credible", you are evaluating them according to standards of credibility that you've acquired over your entire life. This includes the prejudices you've acquired over your lifetime. Putting your head in the sand as your doing doesn't change that. There's no need to fear the truth.

Sorry, unlike the average liberal, I don't look at every task before me as an opportunity at social engineering. Personally, I'm quite capable both intellectually and emotionally of reviewing evidence before me in the context of the situation and the law as written and deciding if the prosecution has met its burden of proof. I don't need to be black to review evidence about a black man or woman, I don't need to be 17 to review evidence about a 17 year old, and I don't need to be a man to review evidence about how a man acted in a particular situation. Having your guilt or innocence determined by a jury of your peers doesn't mean a jury of your clones.

One of the problems with the jury system these days is that too many people like you get empanelled and feel it's necessary to use your "life experience" to psychoanalyze the people involved in a case instead of clinically analyzing the evidence presented.
 

Jerry

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It is regrettable that there were no African-Americans involved in the trial process. 1 Latino on the jury, the rest white. All white lawyers on both sides. White judge. The race-baiters predictably seized on this. Seminole county is 88% white, so the jury makeup not a surprise. But it is regrettable.
I thought one of the jurers was black. Oh well, makes no difetence.
 
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