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Records of Ancient Civilizations

Greeks were the first quasi liberal civilization. Everyone knows Egypt and other Middle Eastern civilizations, like Samaria, preceded them. Asia had a few old ones too.

It was evidence of liberalism elsewhere as well, even before the Greeks. Interestingly, the Persians were older than the Greeks, and were the first known empire to allow freedom of religion and multiculturalism. The first historical documentation of something resembling a declaration of human rights was known as the Cyrus cylinder (named after the same emperor Cyrus mentioned in the Old Testament, such as the book of Esther). This cylinder was written around the same time that the Persians released the Jews from the Babylonian captivity and gave them their freedom.

The Cyrus cylinder is on display today in the foyer of the United Nations building:

 

Account of the Rus'[edit]​

Further information: Rus' people
A substantial portion of Ibn Fadlan's account is dedicated to the description of a people he called the Rūs (روس) or Rūsiyyah. Though the identification of the people Ibn Fadlān describes is uncertain,[17] they are generally assumed to be Volga Vikings; the traders were likely of Scandinavian origin while their crews also included Finns, Slavs, and others.[18] The Rūs appear as traders who set up shop on the river banks nearby the Bolğar camp. They are described as having bodies tall as (date) palm-trees, with blond hair and ruddy skin. Each is tattooed from "the tips of his toes to his neck" with dark blue or dark green "designs" and all men are armed with an axe, sword and long knife.[19]

Ibn Fadlan describes the Rus as "perfect" physical specimens and the hygiene of the Rūsiyyah as disgusting and shameless, especially regarding to sex (which they perform openly even in groups), and considers them vulgar and unsophisticated. In that, his account contrasts with that of the Persian traveler Ibn Rustah, whose impressions of the Rus were more favourable, although it has been attributed to a possibly intentional mistranslation with the original texts being more in line with Ibn Fadlan's narrative.[20] He also describes in great detail the funeral of one of their chieftains (a ship burial involving human sacrifice).[21] Some scholars believe that it took place in the modern Balymer complex.[22]



One of the first written accounts of Vikings. But these Vikings are trading in Russia.

And even this is hundreds of years after the Vikings started raiding Europe.



And


The German monk Adam of Bremen wrote a similar account in 1072 about the sacrificial tradition at Gammel Uppsala in Sweden, where the temple was devoted to Thor, Odin and Frey. Here the Vikings also met every 9 years to ensure the goodwill of the gods. 9 males of all kinds of living creatures were sacrificed in a holy grove nearby. According to Adam of Bremen dogs, horses and humans hung from the trees. The number 9 was apparently of magical significance to the Vikings and was involved in a number of rituals.


Vikings didn't have a written language so foreigner accounts are the only accounts we have and they're 300 years after the height of the Viking raids on Europe.

.
 
Didn’t they have runes?

Elder Futhark runes were used from about 150 AD, seemingly having evolved from mystic practices, until 700-800 when it was replaced by the Younger Futhark.
Besides the phonetic meaning, each rune also had a mythological meaning, but unfortunately we don't know what these was used for in practice, except for the branding of items (like magic Dwarf runes on weapons in roleplaying games).
One of my favorite hypothetical scenarios is that the lost Druidic runes were "culturally appropriated" by the Norse (Germanic peoples borrowed a lot from Celtic culture), just like they were by the Irish (Bardic alphabet).
 
There was a video presentation on Cable TV today, about Ur, Iraq, at about 3800 BC. Did a search of DP and did not find much.

I was taught in school that Greek was the first civilization. There may be things to learn from other civilizations.


An old DP Thread listing old civilizations

There are several civilizations in fact way older than the Greeks. Egypt, various Mesopotamian civilizations, there were cities in the Levant way older than the Greek cities, the Indus valley civilization, the bronze age cultures in China etc. Even in what's today the Greek archipelago the Cycladic and Minoan civilization predates the Greeks (the Greeks expand to the Cyclades and Crete around 1600BCE).
 
Elder Futhark runes were used from about 150 AD, seemingly having evolved from mystic practices, until 700-800 when it was replaced by the Younger Futhark.
Besides the phonetic meaning, each rune also had a mythological meaning, but unfortunately we don't know what these was used for in practice, except for the branding of items (like magic Dwarf runes on weapons in roleplaying games).
One of my favorite hypothetical scenarios is that the lost Druidic runes were "culturally appropriated" by the Norse (Germanic peoples borrowed a lot from Celtic culture), just like they were by the Irish (Bardic alphabet).

So that’s something, isn’t it?

I guess they just never used it to record actual history, I guess.
 
So that’s something, isn’t it?

I guess they just never used it to record actual history, I guess.

Apparently the Goths developed the first Germanic non-magical alphabet exactly because they wanted to write a grand history of their people. It didn't survive, but Jordanes wrote a summary that survives.
Besides that episode resulting in the invention of lower case letters, I think it probably also resulted in runes being simplified and used for more mundane purposes (younger Futhark) until they were entirely supplanted by the Christian (Roman) alphabet.
 
Apparently the Goths developed the first Germanic non-magical alphabet exactly because they wanted to write a grand history of their people. It didn't survive, but Jordanes wrote a summary that survives.
Besides that episode resulting in the invention of lower case letters, I think it probably also resulted in runes being simplified and used for more mundane purposes (younger Futhark) until they were entirely supplanted by the Christian (Roman) alphabet.

Fascinating stuff- thank you!
 

Account of the Rus'[edit]​

Further information: Rus' people
A substantial portion of Ibn Fadlan's account is dedicated to the description of a people he called the Rūs (روس) or Rūsiyyah. Though the identification of the people Ibn Fadlān describes is uncertain,[17] they are generally assumed to be Volga Vikings; the traders were likely of Scandinavian origin while their crews also included Finns, Slavs, and others.[18] The Rūs appear as traders who set up shop on the river banks nearby the Bolğar camp. They are described as having bodies tall as (date) palm-trees, with blond hair and ruddy skin. Each is tattooed from "the tips of his toes to his neck" with dark blue or dark green "designs" and all men are armed with an axe, sword and long knife.[19]

Ibn Fadlan describes the Rus as "perfect" physical specimens and the hygiene of the Rūsiyyah as disgusting and shameless, especially regarding to sex (which they perform openly even in groups), and considers them vulgar and unsophisticated. In that, his account contrasts with that of the Persian traveler Ibn Rustah, whose impressions of the Rus were more favourable, although it has been attributed to a possibly intentional mistranslation with the original texts being more in line with Ibn Fadlan's narrative.[20] He also describes in great detail the funeral of one of their chieftains (a ship burial involving human sacrifice).[21] Some scholars believe that it took place in the modern Balymer complex.[22]



One of the first written accounts of Vikings. But these Vikings are trading in Russia.

And even this is hundreds of years after the Vikings started raiding Europe.



And


The German monk Adam of Bremen wrote a similar account in 1072 about the sacrificial tradition at Gammel Uppsala in Sweden, where the temple was devoted to Thor, Odin and Frey. Here the Vikings also met every 9 years to ensure the goodwill of the gods. 9 males of all kinds of living creatures were sacrificed in a holy grove nearby. According to Adam of Bremen dogs, horses and humans hung from the trees. The number 9 was apparently of magical significance to the Vikings and was involved in a number of rituals.


Vikings didn't have a written language so foreigner accounts are the only accounts we have and they're 300 years after the height of the Viking raids on Europe.

.

Only adding to the idea that the north men were well known and feared.
 
Another form of record is a road map. A satellite image of 10,000 Year old roads, eminating from the ancient city of Tell Brak was shown on the Smithsonian channel, history of Earth. Tell Brak was In the northern area of Syria, or the Fertile Crescent.




One of the milestones for human social development was the mastery of seeds for farming. Were there fences to keep people and domestic animals off the crops? Did people have good manners back then?




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Another form of record is a road map. A satellite image of 10,000 Year old roads, eminating from the ancient city of Tell Brak was shown on the Smithsonian channel, history of Earth. Tell Brak was In the northern area of Syria, or the Fertile Crescent.




One of the milestones for human social development was the mastery of seeds for farming. Were there fences to keep people and domestic animals off the crops? Did people have good manners back then?




871 Views

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Tell Brak is also the earliest known site of organized religion in northern Mesopotamia, according to Wikipedia.

The all seeing eye of the (they're guessing female) god.

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We learn new things all the time. Perhaps you ought to check out Göbekli Tepe. It dates back to around 9000 BC.


It definitely had to have been built by a civilization that predates Ur or Sumer. Ur was working with mud bricks, Gobeki Tepe was in carved stone. Archaeologist have only dug in one of the circles. There are an estimated 20 of them or more. Early civilization included Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley and the Yellow River. But none comes close to Gobekli Tepe. No one knows who built it.

Of course Gobeki Tepe is but one site and isn't considered to be a cradle of civilization like Egypt, Mesopotamia, The Indus or the yellow river. But whoever built it, had all the hallmarks of an advance civilization. I do believe there were more ancient civilizations around the world that have been forgotten about and not rediscovered as yet if they ever will be.

Gobeki tepi is so far the oldest church ever found and is also one of the oldest civilizations found. Which brings about the argument that without religion civilisation would not have come into existence.
 
"Archaeologists at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute have used recently declassified satellite surveillance images to show that subtle land depressions -- which had gone largely unnoticed by scholars -- are actually the remnants of ancient roadways that knitted together the fabric of emerging civilizations in the ancient Near East.

These 5,000-year-old roadways were important thoroughfares for agricultural exchange and other commerce in an area of Syria and Iraq. It was here that expanding local settlements were coming into contact with cultures from southern Mesopotamia as urban civilization developed in the third millennium B.C., according to Tony Wilkinson, Research Associate at the institute, and Jason Ur, a researcher at the institute.

The ancient roads went out of service when better routes emerged late in the first millennium B.C. Because the old roads were in slight depressions, they became locations where local people gathered moist clay for mud bricks. Over the years, the roadways faded and they largely escaped the attention of archaeologists."



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Greeks were the first quasi liberal civilization. Everyone knows Egypt and other Middle Eastern civilizations, like Samaria, preceded them. Asia had a few old ones too.
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They are mentioned no less than six times.
Ezekiel 29:10 and 30:6, Exodus 14:2, Numbers 33:7, and Jeremiah 44:1 and 46:14

The old Hebrews had no word for "Pyramid", so they called them "Migdol" which means something like "great tower" (as in "Tower of Babel", a reference to the Sumerian mud-brick pyramids)

Furthermore, the Jewish historian Josephus who lived much later and did know the word "pyramid" mentions that the Israelites in Egypt were set to work on pyramids.
Considering the time period, these would have been the faux pyramids known as mastabas, which (like the Sumerian pyramids) were built from millions of mudbricks, and then faced with stone to look like "real" pyramids.

Finally, we know that these mastabas were built in the time same time period, and we have archaeological evidence suggesting the builders of these mastabas departed very abruptly (based on the items left behind in their houses).
 
As I understand it West Semitic peoples moved in and out of Egypt all the time, certainly the Proto- Israelites could have done that at some point. At one point Lower Egypt even had a West Semitic dynasty in the Hyksos. Another thing to take into consideration is that up until the Bronze Age collapse what we would consider Canaan was actually under Egyptian suzerainity.
 
As I understand it West Semitic peoples moved in and out of Egypt all the time, certainly the Proto- Israelites could have done that at some point. At one point Lower Egypt even had a West Semitic dynasty in the Hyksos. Another thing to take into consideration is that up until the Bronze Age collapse what we would consider Canaan was actually under Egyptian suzerainity.

Other fun facts.

During the time of Moses, Egypt was going through a nationalistic phase following the expulsion of the Hyksos.
The bible actually mentions that there came a new pharaoh who didn't know Josef and his works. Makes sense that an Egyptian pharaoh wouldn't give a fig about some long-dead servant of a Hyksos pharaoh, and would in fact feel resent the remaining Semitic tribes for being related to the Hyksos rather than any moral or cultural obligation.

Akhn-Aten had been supplanted barely a century before for trying to turn Ra into a monotheistic sky-god.
Possibly an attempt to amalgamate Semitic and Egyptian religious culture that failed spectacularly. Aten certainly could be a reinterpretation of the older Semitic, Indo-European, and Mesopatamian Adon/Adonis/Adunai/Tammuz, who was also a sky-god.

Then again, if one wants a truly freaky twist, some later sources actually have the Hyksos founding Jerusalem after being expelled from Egypt, and have Akhn-Aten changing his name to "Moses". But those are considered mixed myths and highly unreliable.
 
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Other fun facts.

During the time of Moses, Egypt was going through a nationalistic phase following the expulsion of the Hyksos.
The bible actually mentions that there came a new pharaoh who didn't know Josef and his works. Makes sense that an Egyptian pharaoh wouldn't give a fig about some long-dead servant of a Hyksos pharaoh, and would in fact feel resent the remaining Semitic tribes for being related to the Hyksos rather than any moral or cultural obligation.

Akhn-Aten had been supplanted barely a century before for trying to turn Ra into a monotheistic sky-god.
Possibly an attempt to amalgamate Semitic and Egyptian religiopus culture that failed spectacularly. Aten certainly could be a version of the older Semitic and Indo-European Adon/Adonis/Adunai, who was also a sky-god.

Then again, if one wants a truly freaky twist, some later sources actually have the Hyksos founding Jerusalem after being expelled from Egypt, and have Akhn-Aten changing his name to "Moses". But those are considered mixed myths and highly unreliable.
If that's indeed when "Moses" existed. We have no idea if Moses ever was a real person, and when he was active if he was. We also has to take into consideration that the Early Israelite religion wasn't as monotheistic as it would become later (during Babylonian captivity). Sure, they believed the people of Israel only had One God (whether Elohim, which is cognate with the general West Semitic word for deity: El, which probably also was the name of the head of the Canaanite pantheon (see also Ba'al) or Yahweh), but not that other foreign deities did not also exist, they just weren't for the Israelites. And all the stories with Prophets from God punishing dealing Yahweh's judgement for worshipping other deities, were because other deities were often worshipped. One example is the West Semitic Godess Ahserah, who is usually the wife of whoever the head of the pantheon is, and in Israel some people considered her Yahweh's wife.
 
I was taught in school that Greek was the first civilization. There may be things to learn from other civilizations.

I can help.

In Academia, in the fields of archeology, anthropology and history, there is "The Paradigm."

The Paradigm says that humanity constantly grows and progresses. That's a beautiful thought, because we believe that we're constantly blooming and flowering.

Now that you understand that, you understand why anything -- no matter what it is -- that contradicts The Paradigm is categorically dismissed and put in the taboo category, because it means that at some point, humanity failed and regressed and that's not beautiful and we don't want to believe it could ever happen to us.

As you know, South Pacific Islands are volcanic in origin. What you probably don't know -- because it is taboo -- is that on one of those islands, there was a city whose buildings were constructed of granite. Granite is not native to the South Pacific because, well, they're volcanic in origin. That means somebody traveled at least 1,000 miles to get a whole lotta granite and bring it back to that island to build their temples and palaces and homes.

Some of those granite structures are above sea level, but some are partially submerged and some are fully submerged.

What can you infer from that?

Very obviously, someone knew how to quarry, cut and shape granite.

But, it also means that since people don't build cities underwater, they were built before the sea levels rose. When was that? About 14,000 years ago at a time when Academia says it wasn't possible to quarry, cut or shape granite.

Anyway, Academia held out Greece to be the oldest civilization because that fits with their paradigm. Written records repeatedly mentioned far older civilizations, but Academia dismissed them as myths.

It was until Schliemann discovered the mythical city of Troy that opened the flood-gates.

It wasn't until the 1930s that Sumer & Akkad and all the neighboring civilizations were found that started causing angst.

When I was at the British Museum, they had 32,000+ clay tablets in either Sumerian pictographs or Sumerian/Akkadian cuneiform of which about 6,000 have been translated since about the late 1940s. There aren't very many Sumerologists (that's what they're called) and getting funding and access to those tablets at the British Museum is very difficult, so don't expect the remaining 26,000 tablets or so to be translated and published in your life-time.

We call them Grecophiles or Greek-firsters because they don't recognize any civilization prior to Greece, and the few who grudgingly do insist the earlier civilizations were inferior to Greece.

Those civilizations were superior to Greece, especially in the area of math and science. They knew the Earth was a sphere and that Earth and other planets orbited the Sun contradicting the Greeks who believed the Earth was flat and the Sun and everything else orbited Earth.

Very obviously, humanity took a hop, skip and jump backwards in the wrong direction, which contradicts The Paradigm and that is one reason they ridicule and attack Sumerologists and others studying ancient Mesopotamia.
 
Elder Futhark runes were used from about 150 AD, seemingly having evolved from mystic practices, until 700-800 when it was replaced by the Younger Futhark.
Besides the phonetic meaning, each rune also had a mythological meaning, but unfortunately we don't know what these was used for in practice, except for the branding of items (like magic Dwarf runes on weapons in roleplaying games).
One of my favorite hypothetical scenarios is that the lost Druidic runes were "culturally appropriated" by the Norse (Germanic peoples borrowed a lot from Celtic culture), just like they were by the Irish (Bardic alphabet).
Nah, runes were a way of writing, it was a way to record. The runes are an adaptation of a writing system, they seem to basically been ripped from various alphabets, mainly the Greek and Alpine alphabets, so the inventors probably were people who had travelled and learned foreign alphabets and decided to use them for Germanic languages.
 
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As you know, South Pacific Islands are volcanic in origin. What you probably don't know -- because it is taboo -- is that on one of those islands, there was a city whose buildings were constructed of granite. Granite is not native to the South Pacific because, well, they're volcanic in origin. That means somebody traveled at least 1,000 miles to get a whole lotta granite and bring it back to that island to build their temples and palaces and homes.

Some of those granite structures are above sea level, but some are partially submerged and some are fully submerged.

What can you infer from that?

Very obviously, someone knew how to quarry, cut and shape granite.

But, it also means that since people don't build cities underwater, they were built before the sea levels rose. When was that? About 14,000 years ago at a time when Academia says it wasn't possible to quarry, cut or shape granite.
That's fascinating! I couldn't find a single thing on it though. Where did you learn about it and where is it? (Island?)
 
Very obviously, humanity took a hop, skip and jump backwards in the wrong direction, which contradicts The Paradigm and that is one reason they ridicule and attack Sumerologists and others studying ancient Mesopotamia.
I see no reason to doubt that, with all the changes going on with the ice sheet etc. But even in more stable times, civilizations flourished and then for reasons, fell. It doesn't mean everyone everywhere went backwards, right? I believe some of the knowledge the ancients had was bits and pieces of knowledge passed down through careful ritual, just a fraction was preserved.
 
Greece is sometimes called the cradle of western civilization. But the first human civilization was Sumeria, in what is now modern Iraq. It started several thousand years before Greek civilization. This is where the first cities, specialization of labor, a system of coins and currency, systems of writing, trade and commerce, and other signs of civilization first developed.
It appears six separate "Cradles" sprung up nearly simultaneously. Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt, Ancient India (Indus Valley), Ancient China, Ancient Andes and Mesoamerica.

 
During the time of Moses, Egypt was going through a nationalistic phase following the expulsion of the Hyksos.

Actually, a belief now spreading among many is that the ancient Proto-Hebrews actually were the Hyksos. And much of the records in Egypt about the Hyksos, the oldest passages in the Bible, and other records all do seem to match up. But seen from two very different sides of the issue. Especially when one looks at the records from a neutral viewpoint.

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This is a carving of one of the Hyksos from the 12th Dynasty tomb of Khnumhotep II. And almost all of the art of the Hyksos features these brightly colored clothing, in elaborate patterns. A stark contrast to the almost monochromatic attire of the Egyptians.

And in the Hebrew Bible, much is made of Joseph and his Robe (coat) of many colors. And indeed, compared to most in that region both the ancient Proto-Israelites and Hyksos are unique in that both used brightly colored clothing with elaborate patterns in them. Egyptian records showed they entered from "The East", and they were "Shepherd Kings" from a distant land. And even many scholars 2,000 years ago were realizing that these groups were one and the same, just looking at history from different points of view.

The Proto-Israelites were a group of Canaanites, that left the region over religious differences and set up in Egypt. At first existing peacefully, then over time started to take over until there was eventually war and they were expelled. And then returned to Canaan, and took over their old homeland.

The basics do match known history, both written and archaeological. However, each side of course tells it differently.
 
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