Records of Ancient Civilizations

[Litwin]

There was a video presentation on Cable TV today, about Ur, Iraq, at about 3800 BC. Did a search of DP and did not find much.

I was taught in school that Greek was the first civilization. There may be things to learn from other civilizations.

Ur - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An old DP Thread listing old civilizations

very intresting

i just got this in an e-mail not sure how much truth is in it but it makes you think. Read down to the very bottom, you don't want to miss this! VERY INTERESTING - 1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq. 2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization! 3. Noah...

debatepolitics.com

Trypillia: 7000-year-old civilisation silenced by Moscow Marxist occupiers (communists)

Trypillia: 7000-year-old civilisation silenced by Moscow Marxist occupiers (communists) 10 June 2021|Archaeology The Cucuteni–Trypillia culture is one of the of the oldest civilisations in the world and dates back to 5,000 BC. Since most of its settlements were discovered in the former...

debatepolitics.com

 

[Napoleon]

The first "modern civilization", but hardly the first.

The Pre-Dynastic Period of Egypt was over 5,000 years ago. And the Pre-Dynastic period of Sumer may go back almost 7,000 years.

The problem here is that we are reaching the end of the period of written records. And when most construction was still mud bricks and wood, along with animal skins. Agriculture and animal husbandry was just developing, which was needed before a group could decide to plant themselves in a single location and become "civilized".

What Greece had which sets it apart was not only advanced writing and math for the era, they also had a leadership that was neither an absolute despot or theological in basis. They would spawn the first modern city-states, and eventually Democratic styles of government. Which later inspired Rome to follow their concepts and create the modern Republic. Meanwhile, in that region they remained primarily despotisms and advanced little from absolute rule.

There was an ancient people in South America building cities around the same time as the ancient Sumerians. They built Caral, for example, at least 5,000 years ago, but the problem is they were unusually utilitarian. There’s no writing, no artwork of any kind, no decorative stonework, and not a shard of decorated pottery. The only cultural artifacts ever found there is a pile of flutes and cornettes and a single necklace made out of stone beads. So we have no idea who those people were or what happened to them other than the city was abandoned after about 600 years for no obvious reason.

 

[Oozlefinch]

There was an ancient people in South America building cities around the same time as the ancient Sumerians. They built Caral, for example, at least 5,000 years ago, but the problem is they were unusually utilitarian. There’s no writing, no artwork of any kind, no decorative stonework, and not a shard of decorated pottery. The only cultural artifacts ever found there is a pile of flutes and cornettes and a single necklace made out of stone beads. So we have no idea who those people were or what happened to them other than the city was abandoned after about 600 years for no obvious reason.

Actually from 4-4.6 kya. And the site does have art. Many of the stones have figures carved into them, and many small figurines have been discovered as well.

The Caral Figurines | ...en Perú - Travel Culture History News

The statuettes of Caral are revealing a great deal about the civilisation that produced them, one of the oldest in the Americas.

enperublog.com

Ancient wall relief discovered in Peru – DW – 08/17/2018

Wall carvings were found in what was once a fishing city of the Caral civilization, the oldest in the Americas. The relief is thought to symbolize a period of drought and famine brought on by climate change.

www.dw.com

 

[Gladiator]

Ancient Peru, 3800 BC, Incas, used knotted strings as symbols for records and writing.


"A quipu (khipu) was a method used by the Incas and other ancient Andean cultures to keep records and communicate information using string and knots. In the absence of an alphabetic writing system, this simple and highly portable device achieved a surprising degree of precision and flexibility. Quipu could record dates, statistics, accounts, and even abstract ideas.

Quipu use a wide variety of colours, strings, and sometimes several hundred knots all tied in various ways at various heights. These combinations can even represent, in abstract form, key episodes from traditional folk stories and poetry. In recent years scholars have also challenged the traditional view that quipu were merely a memory aid device and go so far as to suggest that quipu may have been progressing towards narrative records and so becoming a viable alternative to written language just when the Inca Empire collapsed."

Quipu

A quipu (khipu) was a method used by the Incas and other ancient Andean cultures to keep records and communicate information using string and knots. In the absence of an alphabetic writing system, this...

www.worldhistory.org

//

 

[Somerville]

The culture known as the Inca Empire only arose in the 13th century CE, there were other peoples in the Andes and surrounding lands before the Inca.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The culture known as the Inca Empire only arose in the 13th century CE, there were other peoples in the Andes and surrounding lands before the Inca.

But like the rest of the Americas, they were still Neolithic, and are a great peak into what was likely also done 6,000 and more years before in most of the world. The same systems were likely used in the Middle East, and likely was what some of the first writing was representing when it appeared.

It must be remembered, that by the time Columbus arrived, the Americas were just first discovering Bronze, but had yet to make the jump to bronze weapons.

 

[code1211]

Ancient Peru, 3800 BC, Incas, used knotted strings as symbols for records and writing.


"A quipu (khipu) was a method used by the Incas and other ancient Andean cultures to keep records and communicate information using string and knots. In the absence of an alphabetic writing system, this simple and highly portable device achieved a surprising degree of precision and flexibility. Quipu could record dates, statistics, accounts, and even abstract ideas.

Quipu use a wide variety of colours, strings, and sometimes several hundred knots all tied in various ways at various heights. These combinations can even represent, in abstract form, key episodes from traditional folk stories and poetry. In recent years scholars have also challenged the traditional view that quipu were merely a memory aid device and go so far as to suggest that quipu may have been progressing towards narrative records and so becoming a viable alternative to written language just when the Inca Empire collapsed."

Quipu

A quipu (khipu) was a method used by the Incas and other ancient Andean cultures to keep records and communicate information using string and knots. In the absence of an alphabetic writing system, this...

www.worldhistory.org

//

WOW! That's amazing!

I watched a show on Prime TV, one in a series, discussing the impact of cheap and available media, like papyrus, on the variety and value of recorded thoughts.

Parchment required that a sheep be raised and slaughtered before it could be used as a medium on which to write. Papyrus was much more like modern paper and less difficult to come by.

As a result, a shopping list was not written on parchment, the Declaration was.

This string method of thought recording is amazing. The creativity of people is amazing.

 

[MaryP]

It occured to me that I know a little about the history of the Native Americans' origins, but nothing about my own ancestors, the English, so I did a little looking. What really interested me was that the Neolithic hunter gatherers that came to Britain and eventually built Stonehenge had originally hailed from Turkey, worked their way west across the Mediterranean, settled in Spain for awhile and eventually travelled north into England. This didn't happen overnight, but I couldn't help but draw the parallel between a hunter gatherer society in Turkey that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars --Gobekli Tepe-- with the hunter gatherer society in England that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars -- Stonehenge.

The circle shape and jaw dropping how'd-they-do-that size of the stones is distinctive.

Very cool beans. Think they might be related, or is it coincidence?

Stonehenge: DNA reveals origin of builders

Ancestors of the people who built Stonehenge travelled west across the Mediterranean to get to Britain.

www.bbc.com

 

[Perotista]

It occured to me that I know a little about the history of the Native Americans' origins, but nothing about my own ancestors, the English, so I did a little looking. What really interested me was that the Neolithic hunter gatherers that came to Britain and eventually built Stonehenge had originally hailed from Turkey, worked their way west across the Mediterranean, settled in Spain for awhile and eventually travelled north into England. This didn't happen overnight, but I couldn't help but draw the parallel between a hunter gatherer society in Turkey that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars --Gobekli Tepe-- with the hunter gatherer society in England that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars -- Stonehenge.

The circle shape and jaw dropping how'd-they-do-that size of the stones is distinctive.

Very cool beans. Think they might be related, or is it coincidence?

Stonehenge: DNA reveals origin of builders

Ancestors of the people who built Stonehenge travelled west across the Mediterranean to get to Britain.

www.bbc.com

View attachment 67344524

View attachment 67344525

Gobekli Tepe was built around 9,000-10,000 BC or some 12,000 years ago. Stonehenge around 2,500 BC. Gobekli Tepe is a massive area where only around 10% has bee escalated. The sophistication of Gobekli Tepe seems to tell me that perhaps there is/was a more advance ancient civilization that we thought possible that puts our timeline of human civilization and perhaps evolution out of kilter.

Then there is another site discovered that is a 1,000 years older than Gobekli Tepe.

Ancient site older than Gobeklitepe unearthed in Turkey

Discoveries at Boncuklu Tarla in southeastern Mardin are around 1,000 years older than those in Gobeklitepe, says professor - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Oozlefinch]

What really interested me was that the Neolithic hunter gatherers that came to Britain and eventually built Stonehenge had originally hailed from Turkey

By the time of Stonehenge, they had already largely settled down from a nomadic hunter-gatherer culture into one that settled in place and took up primitive agriculture.

And at Gobekli Tepe many now believe it was built up over more than 2,000 years as a central religious site for the region. And many changes have been identified, including where some had been destroyed and rebuilt, possibly as some of the gods fell out of favor and newer ones arose.

But monolithic building is not new or unique to the region, or even Europe. Asia, North and South America, all have them, once a population starts to settle down into a single location that always seems to follow. Even in the Pacific Islands such has been seen. It is just a common thing that humans do. Once they transition from nomadic to settled, most tend to want to build something impressive to "show where they are".

 

[MaryP]

Gobekli Tepe was built around 9,000-10,000 BC or some 12,000 years ago. Stonehenge around 2,500 BC. Gobekli Tepe is a massive area where only around 10% has bee escalated. The sophistication of Gobekli Tepe seems to tell me that perhaps there is/was a more advance ancient civilization that we thought possible that puts our timeline of human civilization and perhaps evolution out of kilter.

Then there is another site discovered that is a 1,000 years older than Gobekli Tepe.

Ancient site older than Gobeklitepe unearthed in Turkey

Discoveries at Boncuklu Tarla in southeastern Mardin are around 1,000 years older than those in Gobeklitepe, says professor - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Yup, historians are admitting Gobekli Tepe seriously changes their timeline. It was abandoned about 7, 000 b.c. and Stonehenge was begun about 4,000 years later by the descendants of the same people. I realize there was a long time in between. Just wondering at the great similarities.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Yup, historians are admitting Gobekli Tepe seriously changes their timeline. It was abandoned about 7, 000 b.c. and Stonehenge was begun about 4,000 years later by the descendants of the same people. I realize there was a long time in between. Just wondering at the great similarities.

Almost all cultures have done the exact same things, no matter where they were. Even in the Americas, which had already been isolated for over 20,000 years before Gobekli Tepe was even built.

And we know from archaeological records that humans were in England over 30,000 years before Gobekli Tepe. So what was built in England had absolutely nothing to do with it. The builders of Stonehenge were already living in the area at least 2,000 years prior to even Gobekli Tepe, they simply had not gotten around to building monoliths yet.

 

[MaryP]

Almost all cultures have done the exact same things, no matter where they were. Even in the Americas, which had already been isolated for over 20,000 years before Gobekli Tepe was even built.

And we know from archaeological records that humans were in England over 30,000 years before Gobekli Tepe. So what was built in England had absolutely nothing to do with it. The builders of Stonehenge were already living in the area at least 2,000 years prior to even Gobekli Tepe, they simply had not gotten around to building monoliths yet.

I've been reading quite a bit and I think you've got some things partially wrong. Yes, they've found evidence of humans in England 30,000 years ago, but they didn't stay due to cyclical weather changes. Permanent habitation happened around 12,000 years ago, at the end of the ice age. And those were not the people who built Stonehenge. Those people disappeared, at least DNA wise.

I found two places with similarities to Gobekli Tepe/ Stonehenge in Israel and Spain ( which was the route the Turkish people took when they left), but not in Asia or America. Although the Mounds Builders with their round hill burial sites is a little similar, it seems more like that's the shape a big pile of dirt takes when you pile it up. South America has many huge stone monuments but they're nothing like Gobekli Tepe/Stonehenge.

Traditions can be passed down without writing. We know some of the oldest stories in the Bible, like the Flood, were much much older before they were captured in writing. It's just a possibility.

 

[code1211]

It occured to me that I know a little about the history of the Native Americans' origins, but nothing about my own ancestors, the English, so I did a little looking. What really interested me was that the Neolithic hunter gatherers that came to Britain and eventually built Stonehenge had originally hailed from Turkey, worked their way west across the Mediterranean, settled in Spain for awhile and eventually travelled north into England. This didn't happen overnight, but I couldn't help but draw the parallel between a hunter gatherer society in Turkey that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars --Gobekli Tepe-- with the hunter gatherer society in England that came together to build and worship at a ritual site comprised of a circle of massive stone pillars -- Stonehenge.

The circle shape and jaw dropping how'd-they-do-that size of the stones is distinctive.

Very cool beans. Think they might be related, or is it coincidence?

Stonehenge: DNA reveals origin of builders

Ancestors of the people who built Stonehenge travelled west across the Mediterranean to get to Britain.

www.bbc.com

View attachment 67344524

View attachment 67344525

I think that the Stonehenge installation of rocks was related to telling the time of year and seasons and so forth along with more mystical implications.

Did the Turkey find also lend itself to this?

 

[Somerville]

I think that the Stonehenge installation of rocks was related to telling the time of year and seasons and so forth along with more mystical implications.

Did the Turkey find also lend itself to this?

Those weird academic types do believe that the various structures at Gobekli Tepe were formed with apparent desires toward celestial orientation.

From Cambridge University: Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey
an easier to read commentary: Scrutiny of Göbekli Tepe’s Construction Reveals Celestial Secrets

It's been known for a lot longer that Stonehenge, which is just a bit younger, was also built using celestial orientation

STONES THAT ALIGN WITH THE SUN​

The sarsen stones, put up in at the centre of the site in about 2500 BC, were carefully aligned to line up with the movements of the sun. If you were to stand in the middle of the stone circle on midsummer’s day, the sun rises just to the left of the Heel Stone, an outlying stone to the north-east of the monument. Archaeological excavations have found a large stone hole to the left of the Heel Stone and it may have held a partner stone, the two stones framing the sunrise.

THE questions for the curious -- How did those Neolithic Age primitives learn so much about the movement of celestial bodies, including the Sun? and Why did our ancestors build such massive structures on the basis of what they had learned about the seasonal progression of the Sun, planets and stars?

 

[MaryP]

I think that the Stonehenge installation of rocks was related to telling the time of year and seasons and so forth along with more mystical implications.

Did the Turkey find also lend itself to this?

I don't think they've worked that out yet, but there is at least one theory that the animals on the pillars are constellations. So maybe it has something to do with astronomical observations. I don't think they were calendars--they wouldn't have needed so many.

 

[code1211]

Those weird academic types do believe that the various structures at Gobekli Tepe were formed with apparent desires toward celestial orientation.

From Cambridge University: Geometry and Architectural Planning at Göbekli Tepe, Turkey
an easier to read commentary: Scrutiny of Göbekli Tepe’s Construction Reveals Celestial Secrets

It's been known for a lot longer that Stonehenge, which is just a bit younger, was also built using celestial orientation


THE questions for the curious -- How did those Neolithic Age primitives learn so much about the movement of celestial bodies, including the Sun? and Why did our ancestors build such massive structures on the basis of what they had learned about the seasonal progression of the Sun, planets and stars?

I never fail to be amazed at how observant and creative the primitives were. Of course, a part of that had to be related to avoiding starvation in knowing when to plant and so forth.

People get creative if the choice is between getting creative or dying. I'm sure there were parallel societies or tribes or whatever that did not get creative and did starve.

The folks of 5000 years ago were just as smart and just as creative as we are now today. In view of this, it's a wonder we didn't die out millennia ago... (Hey, you guys, watch this! Hold my beer.)

I suppose every successful society in every time had its own version of the Elon Musk types who helped us to overcome our deficiencies to meet the challenges of the day.

Noticing that the Sun rises at different points on the horizon is, and probably was, pretty obvious. Connecting that to the time to plant would be a "next step" sort of thing. Next step after that is a good method to track it.

 

[code1211]

I don't think they've worked that out yet, but there is at least one theory that the animals on the pillars are constellations. So maybe it has something to do with astronomical observations. I don't think they were calendars--they wouldn't have needed so many.

Away from our cities today, the night sky is awe inspiring. Back then, the night sky was pretty much the same everywhere because night light pollution in cities was not very strong.

There wasn't much to do at night except try not to get eaten by the passing animals or killed by the passing barbarians so star gazing was probably pretty popular.

When I was a child, I was aware that the Big Dipper and Orion were always in the sky in the same relation to each other, but that their positions changed in relation to my parents' house.

If the folks watching these constellations like it was their job were smarter than the 8 year old me, and they obviously were, tracking the movements would have been easy and obvious.

The next step thinking on this would lead them to know that if the stars were in the "right place" to plant, then we can go ahead and plant.

As individuals, we are not always stupid. As societies, we seem to be very, very smart.

 

[swing_voter]

We know very little about those people without written language.

Most of what we know about the Vikings comes from Catholic priests or in one case a Muslim trader.

Same with the English and Scots.

And when a foreigner reports on your people, it's going to be distorted and exaggerated.

.

 

[Somerville]

For those who are interested in the Norse culture, I recommend the Younger Edda and the Prose Edda, written by Snorri Sturlson, in the early years of the 13th century.

 

[Visbek]

But such structures, while impressive achievements, do not by themselves define civilization.

Then how do you define "civilization?"

 

[ataraxia]

Then how do you define "civilization?"

To be considered a civilization, the 7 following requirements must be met:

Stable food supply.
Social structure/cities
System of government.
Religious system.
Highly developed culture.
Advances in technology.
Highly developed written language.

https://www.ohio.k12.ky.us/userfiles/1217/Classes/11305/Characteristics%20of%20a%20Civilization%20with%20Assginment.ppt

 

[code1211]

We know very little about those people without written language.

Most of what we know about the Vikings comes from Catholic priests or in one case a Muslim trader.

Same with the English and Scots.

And when a foreigner reports on your people, it's going to be distorted and exaggerated.

.

The Fury of the Northmen

The Viking invasions destroyed the glory of Celtic monasticism.

www.christianitytoday.com

 

[nota bene]

Greece is sometimes called the cradle of western civilization. But the first human civilization was Sumeria, in what is now modern Iraq. It started several thousand years before Greek civilization. This is where the first cities, specialization of labor, a system of coins and currency, systems of writing, trade and commerce, and other signs of civilization first developed.

Yes, and the Indus Valley.

 

[calamity]

There was a video presentation on Cable TV today, about Ur, Iraq, at about 3800 BC. Did a search of DP and did not find much.

I was taught in school that Greek was the first civilization. There may be things to learn from other civilizations.

Ur - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An old DP Thread listing old civilizations

very intresting

i just got this in an e-mail not sure how much truth is in it but it makes you think. Read down to the very bottom, you don't want to miss this! VERY INTERESTING - 1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq. 2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization! 3. Noah...

debatepolitics.com

Greeks were the first quasi liberal civilization. Everyone knows Egypt and other Middle Eastern civilizations, like Samaria, preceded them. Asia had a few old ones too.