SourceThe men said they told the marines, from Company K, Third Marines, Second Division, that they had been tortured with shocks and flogged with a strip of rubber for more than two weeks, unseen behind the windows of black glass. One of them, Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi Army, said he had been held and tortured there for 22 days.
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"They kill somebody every day," said Mr. Fathil, whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."
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Marks from beatings criss-crossed his back, and deep pocks, apparently from electric shock burns, were gouged in his skin.
The shocks, he said, felt "like my soul is being ripped out of my body." But when he would start to scream, and his body would pull up from the shock, they would begin to beat him, he said.
Sorry, Charlie.Squawker said:Thought some people here would like to read what real torture is, since they do not seem to know.
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ShamMol said:Yeah, torture has so many different levels, this is just an extreme level of it. What happens at these secret prisons, Gitmo, etc. is torture sometimes and all forms of torture should be stopped. Humane treatment for humans.
I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.Pacridge said:I find it amazing, and a little alarming, that the answer to these reports of abuse are often to point out the treatment and actions of the terrorists. Pointing out the way the terrorists mistreat their victims doesn't justify our mistreatment. One of the many things that makes this country so great is that we rise above injustice, we treat people with respect and fairness. Holding people without legal rep. and without a determinate timetable for sentencing or even a timetable for a hearing goes against what I think are some of the main principles of your society. If these people have been terrorist have hearings and let them try to defend their actions. If they are proved to be terrorist sentence them to long prison terms. If the hearing determines they were not terrorist release them.
ShamMol said:I have always found that response to be the most amazing one I can hear because we are justifying our bad treatment with other examples of worse treatment. This is when we should be weighing those actions we take on our morals, on what we believe as a country, on the constitutional values that we supposedly value. The holding them indef. and without legal counsel just has to stop. Give them hearings, give them lawyers who aren't monitored during conversations (so they can then find out details taht are told to lawyers that they can use in their case), etc., etc.
Oh I do too. I actually, however, didn't know about those incidents. I wouldn't find it suprising however to see taht they are true, because when someone is being tortured, usually, they think of only getting the torture to stop and will do many things to insure taht it will stop. I think that if the terrorist mindset that we are all blood-thirsty people was destroyed, then our humane treatment would show them that this in fact was not true.Pacridge said:I sincerely believe that treating them fairly will help us in the long run. By treating them fairly and showing the international community that we're above this and treat people with respect and fairness we'll benefit. We'll benefit because they lose a recruiting argument and we'll gain respect and allies. Plus I think there's been several incident where we've gained info through torture tactics only to find the info was false. The person being tortured only told us stuff he thought we wanted to hear and thought would help end the torture.
Arthur Fonzarelli said:It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.
It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.
It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
Arthur Fonzarelli said:It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.
It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.
It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
You obviously didn't read our posts in which we said we should not care about what other people do. I think that we should be held to a higher standard and not be concerned with what other people are doing.Arthur Fonzarelli said:It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.
It is justifiable for terrorists to behead an American civilian because they object to the actions of the U.S. government.
It is justifiable for terrorists to hijack commercial airplanes & fly them into buildings because...well, I guess just because.
Tashah said:
My housekeeper in Israel is an Iraqi woman of about 26. Both she and her husband were arrested by Saddam Hussein's Mukhabbarat (Secret Police) and incarcerated at Baghdad's infamous Abu Gharaib prison (yep the same one).
Quite unprofessional-like for the Mukhabbarat, her husband succombed to his horiffic wounds *before* they extracted a confession. Amina was subjected to beatings with a metal cable and then electric shocks. In her last session in the metal chair, alligator clips were attached to her toe and her lip. The voltage was sufficient enough to melt the enamel on her front teeth.
The next day, the Mukhabbarat and prison guards abandoned Abu Gharaib... as US Marines were now less than five kilometers away.
Which definition of 'terrorist' are you using here?Arthur Fonzarelli said:It is justifiable for terrorists to kill 17 people in a riot simply because our interrogators were accused of flushing a Koran down the toilet.
As bad as this is, it is no longer considered torture. These days, this is merely "abuse."Tashah said:Amina was subjected to beatings with a metal cable and then electric shocks. In her last session in the metal chair, alligator clips were attached to her toe and her lip. The voltage was sufficient enough to melt the enamel on her front teeth.
Do you have any citations for the effectiveness of torture/abuse?Squawker said:The point of the post was to put things into perspective. You don't know what information the military has discovered by administering the interrogation methods use by our troops.
When did the idea that America was a civilized nation of laws, morals and decency become a part of "Liberal rhetoric?"Squawker said:This Liberal rhetoric about "We should be better than they are"...
Many things that arer a part of as free society can "get our people killed." However, we have determined that liberty and a free society are more valuable than life. Hence we adhere to laws and are a nation of laws and decency.Squawker said:This Liberal rhetoric about "We should be better than they are" might get our people killed.
But does this inhumane and un-American sort of activity even produce the desired results?Squawker said:If they need to use a two by four side their head to get them to talk then so be it.
Actually, according to various treaties that we've ratified, we do have such obligations. Unless, of course, you're in favor of turning America into liars and oath-breakers who don't keep their word as well.Squawker said:They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one.
Did I say that?When did the idea that America was a civilized nation of laws, morals and decency become a part of "Liberal rhetoric?"
Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you? I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story from the UK. Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill? Gossip is of no value and like I said, might get people killed. Liberals seem to have no conscious thought that they are responsible for deaths, just as if they had a rifle in their hand and pulled the trigger.But does this inhumane and un-American sort of activity even produce the desired results?
You called the idea that "We [the US] should be better than they [terrorists] are" "[t]his Liberal rhetoric."Squawker said:Did I say that?
Since the specific situation you mentioned - "a two by four side their head to get them to talk" - was a hypothetical one, I'm not sure how I could be expected to have first hand knowledge of it.Squawker said:Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you?
Good for you.Squawker said:I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story for the UK.
Who are the "you people?" And what does it take, in your mind, for something to leave "the rumor mill?"Squawker said:Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill?
Squawker said:Did I say that?
Inhumane and Un-American? You don't have any first hand knowledge that anything even happened, do you? I trust our Military men and women more than I trust a news story from the UK. Why do you people want to highlight every allegation that is in the rumor mill? Gossip is of no value and like I said, might get people killed. Liberals seem to have no conscious thought that they are responsible for deaths, just as if they had a rifle in their hand and pulled the trigger.
Out of curiosity, what do you consider "real torture?"Squawker said:I am sure that real torture isn't effective.
Which category does the FBI fall into, Liberals or "the media?"Squawker said:I do not consider what our troops do is torture. We have some isolated cases that the media and Liberals make a big to-do over.
This references what I have already provided a direct link to - Mr. Harrington's correspondence.Squawker said:This was the report from CNN in 2004. Hardly the scandal the Liberals and the media have built it up to be.
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This is a prime example of who you are, this is your "mission statement." Good job!Squawker said:If they need to use a two by four side their head to get them to talk then so be it. If you are willing to pay the attorneys fees for all these people to have a trial, have at it. They don't get a trail in their own country and we have no obligation to provide them one. They have no right to the same treatment a US citizen would get.
This applies to EVERYONE in the USA, not just citizens.Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
vandree said:I am completely missing your point. Nobody here is justifying the acts of the terrorists.
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