Rand Paul: Obama's plan to arm Syrian rebels means siding with terrorists (1 Viewer)

[TheDemSocialist]

Ending the violence, protecting civilians and defending human rights - these are the key issues the Syrian National Coalition plans to discuss during its unofficial forum with the UN Security Council in New York on Friday. But amid all the declared noble causes, the opposition group, which has no official status, reportedly hopes to open up weapon supplies, during a meeting with the US Secretary of State. Senator Rand Paul condemned the idea of arming the rebels, saying this would mean siding with terrorists.

Video @: Rand Paul: Obama's plan to arm Syrian rebels means siding with terrorists - YouTube

I agree 100% Rand! :applaud There are a few things we can agree upon Mr. Paul but this seems to be one of them!

 

[MadLib]

No, it doesn't. Only 6% of rebel forces are so much as affiliated with al-Qaeda, and the FSA is hardly a terrorist group. Even amongst the Islamist groups we've seen efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

Rand Paul should stick with calling civil rights bills unconstitutional. That way he'll still be discussing something that he has no knowledge of, but at least I'll be less interested.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

No, it doesn't. Only 6% of rebel forces are so much as affiliated with al-Qaeda, and the FSA is hardly a terrorist group. Even amongst the Islamist groups we've seen efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

Rand Paul should stick with calling civil rights bills unconstitutional. That way he'll still be discussing something that he has no knowledge of, but at least I'll be less interested.

Please, tell me where you get this 6% figure.

 

[Spriggs05]

Video @: [/FONT][/COLOR]Rand Paul: Obama's plan to arm Syrian rebels means siding with terrorists - YouTube

I agree 100% Rand! :applaud

I am so confused right now.

There are a few things we can agree upon Mr. Paul but this seems to be one of them!

The Syrian rebels are a rag tag band of Islamists, Ex-Army soldiers and people who have picked up arms against the government. No Western country should be arming this "fighting force". The FSA is like a government - By that I mean it is inefficient in most cases, and is splintered into many different parts and groups some of whom cannot be trusted. Hezbollah are likely involved to some degree and if we arm them, Al-Qaeda are also arming them, we cannot pick and choses our enemies in different places. We must fight terrorists if anyone. Its not like Syria has a global reach, is monitoring our communications or has established military bases in areas of the globe that it shouldn't, 100% not. :roll:

 

[code1211]

Right now we has a killing field where Arabs are killing Persians, Persians are killing Arabs and Palestinians are killing and getting killed by anyone who passes by.

We need definitely to keep out of the area completely, but do need to assure that all sides have the arms needed to continue this noble effort.

Think of it as providing equipment to exterminators.

 

[MadLib]

Please, tell me where you get this 6% figure.

From Wikipedia. I added up the approximate total of all rebel forces, using the conservative estimate when I could, and divided it from the estimated number of al-Nusra fighters (they are the only ones affiliated with al-Qaeda IIRC) - 6,000 troops. I got about 5.5% and rounded it up. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the other Islamist groups or even some FSA brigades are aligned with al-Qaeda, but until it is shown that they are I am going to assume they aren't.

 

[MadLib]

The Syrian rebels are a rag tag band of Islamists, Ex-Army soldiers and people who have picked up arms against the government. No Western country should be arming this "fighting force". The FSA is like a government - By that I mean it is inefficient in most cases, and is splintered into many different parts and groups some of whom cannot be trusted.

That's quite clear, but thrusting our heads into the sand, pretending it doesn't matter, and not getting involved isn't going to make it any better.

Hezbollah are likely involved to some degree and if we arm them, Al-Qaeda are also arming them, we cannot pick and choses our enemies in different places.

Hezbollah is actually aligned with Assad against al-Qaeda, due to sectarian differences (although they are similarly disgusting).

We must fight terrorists if anyone.

Fighting terrorism isn't just about killing them whenever we get the opportunity. Provided we support the right people, we can prevent al-Nusra from taking power.

Its not like Syria has a global reach, is monitoring our communications or has established military bases in areas of the globe that it shouldn't, 100% not. :roll:

Much worse, during the 2000s they exercised de facto control over much of Lebanon through Hezbollah and murdered anyone who dared to challenge them. IIRC, they also supported Shia militants in Iraq post-invasion.

 

[MadLib]

Think of it as providing equipment to exterminators.

Your racist contempt for basically everyone in the Middle East is beyond disgusting.

 

[Spriggs05]

That's quite clear, but thrusting our heads into the sand, pretending it doesn't matter, and not getting involved isn't going to make it any better.

However getting involved wouldn't make it any better evil since it would be "the imperialist west" and they would hate us more. Its a loss/loss scenario

Fighting terrorism isn't just about killing them whenever we get the opportunity. Provided we support the right people, we can prevent al-Nusra from taking power.

But how do you know who's the "Right People" as you put it. We have seen the radicalisation of many people throughout the world and what's to say that it won't happen to the moderates in the FSA.

IIRC, they also supported Shia militants in Iraq post-invasion.

Shia? Assad is alawite and most of the Islamic world is Sunni. That is a mind****.

 

[Republic Now!]

I don't know if I like putting more weapons into an unstable territory that may come back to bite us later.

Plus, if these rebels end up installing a bad Government, America will be given responsibility by the Middle Eastern people and it could compromise future peace efforts.

Assuming the best of the rebels (that they're a rebellion of peace and freedom loving individuals who have had enough of their oppressive Government), it would still be best for us to remain neutral on the issue until a direct US interest comes into the picture and even then we should tread lightly.

 

[code1211]

Your racist contempt for basically everyone in the Middle East is beyond disgusting.

It's only observation. If they are killing each other, they seem to get a little distracted from us.

I don't seem to see a whole bunch of radical Episcopalians strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up babies in the supermarket.

I suppose you feel the Sword of Islam and his little brother were justified in blowing up the Boston Marathon. That 8 year old kid they killed just had to die for them to free their country and serve their religion.

Ahmed, the dead terrorist, is the best representation of this stone age cult that I've seen. They are a ridiculous oxymoron in the world today and are out to kill anyone who does not agree with whatever immediate goal they have today. I don't really care if the terrorists are motivated by good guys or bad guys or holy guys or mad men. They are motivated to kill and to destroy. As long as they are killing and destroying things in their own little play pen, that's fine. It's when they branch out that it gets to be annoying.

You can ply your holier than thou understanding of this as much as you want, but that won't mollify their hatred of Americans and their desire to kill you and me and anyone else who is not them. Remember that obama was convinced that if we were nice to them, they would love us. How's that been working out?

I suppose that is the really great thing about Islam. Its view of the world's is absolutely equal in that it wants to kill everyone who is not Islamic. The comical thing about the Christian tolerance of the hatred radiated by Islam for Jews is that the Islamists see no difference between the Jews and the Christians. If the population in Israel was predominantly Lutheran, the palestinians would be bombing them instead.

If your neighbor owned a Pit Bull and that Pit Bull had really truly mauled several children who just happened to be walking by, would recognizing this fact as a fact be unfair or simply a recognition of the fact like knowing that a hot stove is hot?

 

[MadLib]

However getting involved wouldn't make it any better evil since it would be "the imperialist west" and they would hate us more. Its a loss/loss scenario

I don't think "they" really hate us. A bunch of vocal lunatics make us think they do, but they don't. Those lunatics, by the way, have hated us long before we became an imperial power. Furthermore, from what I've seen many there have actually wanted us to assist them. The only way things can work to our benefit is if we get involved.

But how do you know who's the "Right People" as you put it. We have seen the radicalisation of many people throughout the world and what's to say that it won't happen to the moderates in the FSA.

Extremists aren't exactly secretive about their beliefs. The only reason the FSA has turned to the Islamists in the first place is because they are an "elite" fighting force and they don't have any better alternatives. A superpower providing limited economic, diplomatic, and aerial support would be far better for the rebels than would a bunch of fundamentalist nutjobs. The democrats amongst the rebels are well aware that they will likely have to fight the Islamists at some point - indeed, infighting has already begun- so they're not irreversibly bound to terrorists as some would like to think.

Shia? Assad is alawite and most of the Islamic world is Sunni. That is a mind****.

The Alawites are an ethno-religious group that is predominantly Shia. Sunni Islam is the majority religion of Syria, and Shia Islam is the majority religion of Iraq. It is a mind****, and it's really stupid since Shia and Sunni extremists mutually hate and kill one another.

I agree that sometimes we have a far greater global reach than necessary, but it doesn't and never will compare to the malevolent, fascistic presence that Syria has had in the Middle East, whether it be in a war against Israel, tyranny in Lebanon, or sabotage in Iraq.

 

[MadLib]

It's only observation. If they are killing each other, they seem to get a little distracted from us.

Not all of them hate us.

I don't seem to see a whole bunch of radical Episcopalians strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up babies in the supermarket.

Fundamentalism is by no means solely Islamic. Look at the Christian terrorists operating in western and central Africa. Islam doesn't create terrorism, poverty does.

I suppose you feel the Sword of Islam and his little brother were justified in blowing up the Boston Marathon. That 8 year old kid they killed just had to die for them to free their country and serve their religion.

Ahmed, the dead terrorist, is the best representation of this stone age cult that I've seen. They are a ridiculous oxymoron in the world today and are out to kill anyone who does not agree with whatever immediate goal they have today. I don't really care if the terrorists are motivated by good guys or bad guys or holy guys or mad men. They are motivated to kill and to destroy. As long as they are killing and destroying things in their own little play pen, that's fine. It's when they branch out that it gets to be annoying.

What utter nonsense. I despise fanaticism and terrorism in any incarnation. I just don't generalize an entire culture or ethnicity as a result.

You can ply your holier than thou understanding of this as much as you want, but that won't mollify their hatred of Americans and their desire to kill you and me and anyone else who is not them. Remember that obama was convinced that if we were nice to them, they would love us. How's that been working out?

I suppose that is the really great thing about Islam. Its view of the world's is absolutely equal in that it wants to kill everyone who is not Islamic. The comical thing about the Christian tolerance of the hatred radiated by Islam for Jews is that the Islamists see no difference between the Jews and the Christians. If the population in Israel was predominantly Lutheran, the palestinians would be bombing them instead.

The Islam you are referencing is a bastardized version that has been corrupted by extreme poverty and by psychopaths who use Islam for their own ends. These people do not represent Islam, they are in fact the Arab world's greatest enemies. As long as they encourage fanaticism and violence, the entire Muslim world will continue to suffer.

If your neighbor owned a Pit Bull and that Pit Bull had really truly mauled several children who just happened to be walking by, would recognizing this fact as a fact be unfair or simply a recognition of the fact like knowing that a hot stove is hot?

How do pit bulls become aggressive? It's not like it just woke up one morning and decided to maul children. Of course the creature needs to be put down, but our real foe is whoever trained it to be vicious and cruel.

 

[Spriggs05]

I don't think "they" really hate us. A bunch of vocal lunatics make us think they do, but they don't. Those lunatics, by the way, have hated us long before we became an imperial power. Furthermore, from what I've seen many there have actually wanted us to assist them. The only way things can work to our benefit is if we get involved.

However the Muslim people (they) mostly have a fairly unfavourable view of the USA, The 2011 Arab Public Opinion Poll | Brookings Institution

While a majority of Arabs polled continue to express unfavorable views of the United States (59%) the number of those who have favorable views of the US has increased from 10% in 2010 to 26% in 2011. This improvement could be related to the perception of the American handling of the Arab Spring, as 24% of those polled identified the US as one of the two countries they believe played the most constructive role in the Arab Spring.

By constructive role those interviewed probably mean that the US stopped supporting the tyrants. I think that once we've pulled out of Afghanistan and stay away from the ME for a while opinion of America will continue to become more positive. In Europe however....

Extremists aren't exactly secretive about their beliefs. The only reason the FSA has turned to the Islamists in the first place is because they are an "elite" fighting force and they don't have any better alternatives. A superpower providing limited economic, diplomatic, and aerial support would be far better for the rebels than would a bunch of fundamentalist nutjobs. The democrats amongst the rebels are well aware that they will likely have to fight the Islamists at some point - indeed, infighting has already begun- so they're not irreversibly bound to terrorists as some would like to think.

I would be in favour of a no fly zone over Syria.
However I would not support funding or providing lethal aid to them, simply due to the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.
When/If a democratic government is established in Syria and free and fair elections are held if the islamists resort to violence to try to impose a theocratic state then I would support lethal aid to the government of that nation. In the meantime - no chance.

 

[MadLib]

However the Muslim people (they) mostly have a fairly unfavourable view of the USA, The 2011 Arab Public Opinion Poll | Brookings Institution


By constructive role those interviewed probably mean that the US stopped supporting the tyrants. I think that once we've pulled out of Afghanistan and stay away from the ME for a while opinion of America will continue to become more positive. In Europe however....

I wouldn't be surprised if our support for rebels in Libya is what caused the increase in favorable opinion. The Egyptians don't really like us now because of our alliance with both Mubarak and Morsi. I agree with you on pulling out of Afghanistan, though. I just hope that the Muslim world doesn't look at the inevitable corruption and violence in Afghanistan and b

I would be in favour of a no fly zone over Syria.
However I would not support funding or providing lethal aid to them, simply due to the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.
When/If a democratic government is established in Syria and free and fair elections are held if the islamists resort to violence to try to impose a theocratic state then I would support lethal aid to the government of that nation. In the meantime - no chance.

There's always risk in foreign policy. That doesn't mean that it's not worth doing.

 

[Spriggs05]

There's always risk in foreign policy. That doesn't mean that it's not worth doing.

Wise words

 

[Tovarish]

That's whom they want to give weapons. 1) [WARNING+18. (not for shock, 18+, not for faint-hearted, viewer discretion advised, aimed only at documenting crimes by FSA terrorists in Syria)] Syrian Catholic priest beheaded by Jihadis as crowd cheers. (A Syrian Catholic priest was beheaded by jihadist fighters in Syria. The death of Franciscan Father Francois Murad was confirmed by the official Vatican news agency. Father Francois, was killed on 23 June in Gassanieh, in northern Syria. A shaky camera phone video allegedly shows the 49-year-old's death.) 2) FSA Terrorist Abu Saqqar Eats the Heart of a Syrian Soldier after Ripping it Out (Warning: Graphic content (not for shock, 18+, not for faint-hearted, viewer discretion advised, aimed only at documenting crimes by FSA terrorists in Syria)This video footage shows Abu Saqqar, a terrorist from the "Free Syrian Army" (FSA) in Bab Amr, Homs, cutting out the heart of a dead Syrian soldier before proceeding to eat it after promising that the FSA will eat the hearts and livers of Bashar's soldiers.Source: Syrian Truth)

 

[Mr. Invisible]

From Wikipedia. I added up the approximate total of all rebel forces, using the conservative estimate when I could, and divided it from the estimated number of al-Nusra fighters (they are the only ones affiliated with al-Qaeda IIRC) - 6,000 troops. I got about 5.5% and rounded it up. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the other Islamist groups or even some FSA brigades are aligned with al-Qaeda, but until it is shown that they are I am going to assume they aren't.

I really don't consider Wikipedia to be a great source for information. Please get back to me when you have something more substantial.

 

[quantumechanic]

I really don't consider Wikipedia to be a great source for information. Please get back to me when you have something more substantial.

Wikipedia isn't a source for information, it is a compendium of information. It does, however reference its sources, which you could have looked up as easily as I did:
Freedom fighters? Cannibals? The truth about Syria
Syria


And one of my own: http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/w...free/jabhat-al-nusra-a-strategic-briefing.pdf

There seems to be some confusion regarding Al-Nusra's numbers, with estimates ranging from 5000 to 7000, but it looks like MadLib's reasoning is sound (under the assumption that Al-Nusra are indeed the only group affiliated with Al Qaeda).

 

[MadLib]

I really don't consider Wikipedia to be a great source for information. Please get back to me when you have something more substantial.

The article is semi-protected (IIRC that means only registered members can edit the page), and the numbers were sourced, but fine. Here's the infographic that Wikipedia used, taken from americanprogress.

It's missing the foreign mujahideen (also about 6,000) which I used in my math. As I said, it's likely that some of the Islamist groups other than al-Nusra support al-Qaeda, but until evidence is shown to support it I won't act as if that is the case.

 

[MadLib]

That's whom they want to give weapons. 1) [WARNING+18. (not for shock, 18+, not for faint-hearted, viewer discretion advised, aimed only at documenting crimes by FSA terrorists in Syria)] Syrian Catholic priest beheaded by Jihadis as crowd cheers. (A Syrian Catholic priest was beheaded by jihadist fighters in Syria. The death of Franciscan Father Francois Murad was confirmed by the official Vatican news agency. Father Francois, was killed on 23 June in Gassanieh, in northern Syria. A shaky camera phone video allegedly shows the 49-year-old's death.) 2) FSA Terrorist Abu Saqqar Eats the Heart of a Syrian Soldier after Ripping it Out (Warning: Graphic content (not for shock, 18+, not for faint-hearted, viewer discretion advised, aimed only at documenting crimes by FSA terrorists in Syria)This video footage shows Abu Saqqar, a terrorist from the "Free Syrian Army" (FSA) in Bab Amr, Homs, cutting out the heart of a dead Syrian soldier before proceeding to eat it after promising that the FSA will eat the hearts and livers of Bashar's soldiers.Source: Syrian Truth)

The Murad myth was already exposed as Assad propaganda, and Abu Sakkar's connection with the Free Syrian Army is flimsy at best, with the leaders condemning his actions and claiming that they will put them on trial.

 

[Tovarish]

The Murad myth was already exposed as Assad propaganda, and Abu Sakkar's connection with the Free Syrian Army is flimsy at best, with the leaders condemning his actions and claiming that they will put them on trial.

*laughs* As I expected. In the Syrian terrorists, velvet ears - pink ass. Elves are at war with Assad. *laughs* Who has "exposed the myth"? Terrorists? We know the different disclosure. For example - the chemical weapons Saddam Hussein. You think that the video - staging? Funny.

 

[MadLib]

Who has "exposed the myth"? Terrorists?

If by terrorists you mean Human Rights Watch, sure. Syria: Father Francois Murad Beheading Video an Assad Propaganda Hoax - IBTimes UK

Additionally, the murder was carried out by al-Nusra, making it almost entirely irrelevant when it comes to supporting the FSA.

 

[Tovarish]

If by terrorists you mean Human Rights Watch, sure. Syria: Father Francois Murad Beheading Video an Assad Propaganda Hoax - IBTimes UK

Additionally, the murder was carried out by al-Nusra, making it almost entirely irrelevant when it comes to supporting the FSA.

I do not believe "human rights defenders". I remember as Human Rights Watch claimed that the fighting civilians in Chechnya and not terrorists. Then these "civilians" captured maternity hospitals and theaters, people beheaded and traded in human organs. Blew up buildings in Moscow and Volgodonsk. By this - I do not believe all by that corrupt "human rights defenders". For me they are two-faced rubbish. In addition, the article does not understand - say that the video is not a priest. You can talk all you want. This is not an argument. But even if this is so - so what? Do you think - cut off people's heads, is this normal? And more. What shows that it is propaganda Assad?

 

[MadLib]

I do not believe "human rights defenders". I remember as Human Rights Watch claimed that the fighting civilians in Chechnya and not terrorists. Then these "civilians" captured maternity hospitals and theaters, people beheaded and traded in human organs. Blew up buildings in Moscow and Volgodonsk.

Do you have proof of this?

By this - I do not believe all by that corrupt "human rights defenders". For me they are two-faced rubbish.

Suit yourself. I'm sure random Youtubers and Syrian state propaganda are far more reliable than HRW

In addition, the article does not understand - say that the video is not a priest.

No, it doesn't.

You can talk all you want. This is not an argument. But even if this is so - so what? Do you think - cut off people's heads, is this normal? And more. What shows that it is propaganda Assad?

I don't think that cutting off people's heads is normal, no. But it wasn't done to a Catholic priest by the FSA, it was done to Syrian soldier by al-Nusra and is therefore irrelevant when it comes to supporting the FSA.