Racism Towards Whites [W:427, 577]

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

The "ugly American" has no basis in fact. On the other hand, I have encountered foreigners relieved to find I was an American because they feared I was a German. The "ugly American" is a deliberately false and malicious caricature.eace

Then you and I have significantly different experiences. To be sure, I've seen many times that Americans are eagerly accepted and given preferential treatment...but I've seen quite a few times that the 'ugly American' is quite real.

But that's off the topic. Concerning the rest of my previous comment, do you still disagree that a nation's success over a period of centuries can affect the psyche of the people?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Then you and I have significantly different experiences. To be sure, I've seen many times that Americans are eagerly accepted and given preferential treatment...but I've seen quite a few times that the 'ugly American' is quite real.

what is your experiance overseas like? Because the entitled foreigner is rather common, regardless of national background. So maybe your experience overseas are just limited and shaped through ignorance, like your experiences outside white-bread america

 

[US Conservative]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

I'm 33 years old. My entire life, I was brought up to believe that racism was wrong, that people shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin (or anything physically that they can't change), and that those that did those things were ignorant bigots, to be critical towards. Well, I bought into it. I believe that. Parents, teachers, after school specials, and influential people throughout the years: you convinced me. I'm firmly on your side.

But as I grew up, I came to find that more and more, there are some people on the left that don't really believe that racism in and of itself was wrong, but that racism against a demographic with less economic and/or political power was wrong. They don't really believe that judging people by the color of their skin (or anything physically that they can't change) in and of itself was wrong, but that judging people by the color of their skin (or anything physically that they can't change) and they were part of a demographic with less economic and/or political power was wrong. They don't really believe that those that did those things were ignorant bigots, to be critical towards, but that those people were only ignorant bigots, to be critical towards, if they were part of a demographic with more economic and/or political power.

Of course this isn't everyone that believes that racism was wrong. Not by a longshot. But there are some. And they want to say that the only bad racism is the kind that goes against a race that has less economic and/or political power. Well, that wasn't part of the deal that you taught me growing up. And I'm not buying it. I believe that racism is wrong across the board, regardless of the power inequality between the parties. I believe that judging people by the color of their skin (or anything physically that they can't change) is wrong across the board, regardless of the power inequality between the parties. I believe that those that did those things were ignorant bigots, to be critical towards, regardless of the power inequality between the parties.

Don't try to shoehorn this anti-power inequality bull**** into anti-racism, because they're two different issues, and I'm only supportive of one of them.

You are correct-liberals (and the democrat party) are actually FOR discrimination-as long as it is implemented in the way they see fit.
Asian Americans do quite well, easily exceeding caucasians in education, income, marriage, and non-poverty rates (depending on where you live, and so on)-but we are to think that disparities in outcomes is somehow BECAUSE of race. Liberals scream it-but I am not buying it.

 

[US Conservative]

Hello.

For my first post I'd like to say that it refreshing to find a forum that will allow this topic to be discussed. On other forums I have been "banned" for the mildest comment regarding this issue.

Thank you. Carry on.

Its my 3rd post, Mosby.
Glad to meet someone who has that same thought!

 

[NoC_T]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

hahahahahahahahaha

What I said an't reasonable or rational?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

A true believer, a mind as impenetrable as any dittohead.

I just love the way this guy continues to remain immune to thread bans that would be assured, for anyone else who adopted this style of posting.

Classic.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Then you and I have significantly different experiences. To be sure, I've seen many times that Americans are eagerly accepted and given preferential treatment...but I've seen quite a few times that the 'ugly American' is quite real.

But that's off the topic. Concerning the rest of my previous comment, do you still disagree that a nation's success over a period of centuries can affect the psyche of the people?

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "the psyche of the people." There are only individual psyches.

And I wasn't talking about preferential treatment for Americans. My point was that Americans are usually flexible, unobtrusive travelers who do their very best to respect local customs and keep a low profile.eace

 

[Mason66]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Actually, I used this really new technology - it's called a "brain". You may have heard of it.

So no.

You think somebody growing up White automatically knows they are part of, what you call, the most powerful group? It is just automatically in their psyche?

 

[Mason66]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Um, actually, yes it does do something to a person's psyche...and I'm pretty sure you've seen it, though you may not have recognized it for what it was. You've spent a lot of time overseas, and I'd be rather astonished if you could honestly say you never saw an American acting superior in front of the locals, and expected that they should do what he says or treat him special just because he's an American. You know the type - the classic "ugly American". Can you honestly say that particular reputation has no basis in fact?

Or perhaps historical examples would better serve, those of the English and particularly the Romans. Kipling's "White Man's Burden" exemplifies my claim - he describes therein a benevolent racism, if one could call it that, and it matches so closely what I've seen from my youth to today.

And just to be clear, when I say that being part of a superior group does something to someone's psyche, I refer most especially to those who were taught (whether overtly or by near-constant implication) in their formative years that their group - whether it's a nation, a culture, a race, an ethnicity - is the best because they were the most successful, and were taught how sad it must be for those unfortunates to not be one of that beknighted group. When this is inculcated into a society's awareness over the course of centuries - as it certainly was with Rome and England - then yes, it does affect the national psyche as a whole, which demands that it affected enough of the individual psyches in order to have affected that national psyche.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Now you say that the superiority has to be taught. That makes more sense then when you said before that just being part of the group was automatically in the psyche.

 

[Mason66]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

No, you're deliberately missing my point, as is obvious by your statement at the beginning of your comment.



What I was alluding to - and what I'm fairly sure that you understood but probably chose to not understand - was the great disparity (even in relative terms) in the total racism committed by one race as compared to the total racism committed by the other race. Or, to put it more simply, the molehill of black racism does NOT compare to the mountain of white racism.

Of course you'll deliberately misunderstand this, too (for you're apparently an adherent of that unwritten rule of internet debates: "Thou shalt never admit error in the least, no matter what!") so instead of continuing to beat my head against the proverbial brick wall, I'll give you the last word while I go on to other discussions.

Racism always comes down to individuals so the disparity doesn't really matter. The person being discriminated against or hurt, is still being hurt. It doesn't matter if that was one of 10 incidents or one of a hundred.

 

[Black Dog]

Hello.

For my first post I'd like to say that it refreshing to find a forum that will allow this topic to be discussed. On other forums I have been "banned" for the mildest comment regarding this issue.

Thank you. Carry on.

Welcome. Hey as long as it does not roll into hate speech territory or pornagraphy, we will discuss anything.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

You are correct-liberals (and the democrat party) are actually FOR discrimination-as long as it is implemented in the way they see fit.
Asian Americans do quite well, easily exceeding caucasians in education, income, marriage, and non-poverty rates (depending on where you live, and so on)-but we are to think that disparities in outcomes is somehow BECAUSE of race. Liberals scream it-but I am not buying it.

It has nothing to do with race exactly. It does however weigh heavily on culture. Racism is not born, it is taught.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Then you and I have significantly different experiences. To be sure, I've seen many times that Americans are eagerly accepted and given preferential treatment...but I've seen quite a few times that the 'ugly American' is quite real.

But that's off the topic. Concerning the rest of my previous comment, do you still disagree that a nation's success over a period of centuries can affect the psyche of the people?

Cool, anyway:

How would you, Glen, respond if I said a black guy not getting a job from a white employer was just as bad as a white guy getting killed in a robbery committed by a black guy? Would you think I was being genuine in my desire to talk about racism? Serious question. Would you think I was being genuine? Or would you think I was being purposefully obtuse?

I hope that you can answer this, considering you've been appalling disingenuous for most of this conversation.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Cool, anyway:



I hope that you can answer this, considering you've been appalling disingenuous for most of this conversation.

As I would with any other statement, it depends upon the context of the statement. I thought the context of my statement to you was obvious, and I even took pains to explain that context to you in my previous reply. Problem is, you're making a sweeping generalization that I've been "appalling disingenuous for most of this conversation". So in my view, you've deliberately missed my point and you're making a sweeping generalization. You're not trying to honestly debate - you're just trying to win an argument. I see no reason to continue with you.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

As I would with any other statement, it depends upon the context of the statement. I thought the context of my statement to you was obvious,

Yes, it was an obvious attempt to compare apples and oranges while pretending you were comparing the same thing. I can guess why you did that, the only question now is if you would allow such a thing to be said if the comparison between the two incredibly and obviously different things didn't favor your opinion. Or would you call it out and believe it to be either incredibly stupid or incredibly disingenuous. And that's my question. Let's see if you bother to answer it with the rest of your post.

and I even took pains to explain that context to you in my previous reply.

Yet, that wasn't my question. My question is if you'd allow such a blatantly skewed comparison to fly, or if you'd point it out as being ridiculously disingenuous. Hold my hand now, as we forge ahead in your post...

Problem is, you're making a sweeping generalization that I've been "appalling disingenuous for most of this conversation". So in my view, you've deliberately missed my point and you're making a sweeping generalization. You're not trying to honestly debate - you're just trying to win an argument. I see no reason to continue with you.

So you didn't answer the question. I'm going to let go of your hand now, and ask it again:

How would you, Glen, respond if I said a black guy not getting a job from a white employer was just as bad as a white guy getting killed in a robbery committed by a black guy? Would you think I was being genuine in my desire to talk about racism? Serious question. Would you think I was being genuine? Or would you think I was being purposefully obtuse?

Is the main question hard? Or is it the followups? The follow ups are just yes/no type things, ya know...

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "the psyche of the people." There are only individual psyches.

And I wasn't talking about preferential treatment for Americans. My point was that Americans are usually flexible, unobtrusive travelers who do their very best to respect local customs and keep a low profile.eace

I think any politician would strongly disagree with you, and I know my own experience says differently, as well. I would heartily agree that most Americans try to do their best to show respect...but so do most travelers regardless of where they're from. I would instead say that the minority of our travelers who act thoughtlessly is a bit larger than that of most other nations.

That said, Jack, c'mon now. The 'psyche of the people' is simply another way of saying 'cultural norms'...and you know very well that nations do have cultural norms. If I'm wrong in something here, it's that I used a phrase - "national psyche" - that probably none of us has ever seen when discussing such a topic. I should have used "cultural norm" instead, since that would probably be better understood.

So...would you still disagree that generations - or centuries - of success, of being at the apex of power, doesn't do something to the cultural norms of a nation?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

So no.

You think somebody growing up White automatically knows they are part of, what you call, the most powerful group? It is just automatically in their psyche?

No, guy, of course not. While people are born with general psychological tendencies, it's the family and the culture (which had its own effect upon the child's family already) as a whole that develops a child's world view.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Thank you for clearing that up.

Now you say that the superiority has to be taught. That makes more sense then when you said before that just being part of the group was automatically in the psyche.

Have you ever seen the play or the movie "South Pacific"? When it comes to racial politics, it was quite groundbreaking for its time. There's a song in it called "You Have to Be Carefully Taught". Here's the lyrics:

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Racism always comes down to individuals so the disparity doesn't really matter. The person being discriminated against or hurt, is still being hurt. It doesn't matter if that was one of 10 incidents or one of a hundred.

Ah. It's always the individual...so the degree, the degree of racism in a culture doesn't matter. So the degree of religious (or "areligious") persecution doesn't matter, then. And the homicide rate doesn't matter, either. Neither does the sexual assault rate. Neither does the homelessness or the unemployed rate. Neither does the teenage pregnancy rate. Why? Because it's all about the individual!

*sigh*

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

I think any politician would strongly disagree with you, and I know my own experience says differently, as well. I would heartily agree that most Americans try to do their best to show respect...but so do most travelers regardless of where they're from. I would instead say that the minority of our travelers who act thoughtlessly is a bit larger than that of most other nations.

That said, Jack, c'mon now. The 'psyche of the people' is simply another way of saying 'cultural norms'...and you know very well that nations do have cultural norms. If I'm wrong in something here, it's that I used a phrase - "national psyche" - that probably none of us has ever seen when discussing such a topic. I should have used "cultural norm" instead, since that would probably be better understood.

So...would you still disagree that generations - or centuries - of success, of being at the apex of power, doesn't do something to the cultural norms of a nation?

Generally speaking, I don't care for generally speaking. In the case of the US I could as easily make the opposite argument: we stumbled into preeminence and really only want to be left alone. No, I don't think geopolitical standing has much to do with cultural norms.eace

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Generally speaking, I don't care for generally speaking. In the case of the US I could as easily make the opposite argument: we stumbled into preeminence and really only want to be left alone. No, I don't think geopolitical standing has much to do with cultural norms.eace

I like that first sentence! I hope you don't mind if I use that sometime....

And we "really only want to be left alone"? C'mon, Jack - how many nations have experienced "regime change" at our hands? How many wars have we fought in places that did not present a clear and present danger to America? How many nations have felt concerted diplomatic pressure from us because we didn't like their politics, or because we didn't like how they treated this or that segment of people within their own borders? You know this last one far better than I, come to think of it.

No, I think you'd be better off saying that "we really want to left alone to do what we want to do - which is to be free to meddle in the affairs of just about every other nation on the planet".

 

[polgara]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Generally speaking, I don't care for generally speaking. In the case of the US I could as easily make the opposite argument: we stumbled into preeminence and really only want to be left alone. No, I don't think geopolitical standing has much to do with cultural norms.eace

Very funny play on words! :thumbs:

Got my flag out early to show appreciation and respect, as did all my neighbors...

Good morning, Jack. :2wave:

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

I like that first sentence! I hope you don't mind if I use that sometime....

And we "really only want to be left alone"? C'mon, Jack - how many nations have experienced "regime change" at our hands? How many wars have we fought in places that did not present a clear and present danger to America? How many nations have felt concerted diplomatic pressure from us because we didn't like their politics, or because we didn't like how they treated this or that segment of people within their own borders? You know this last one far better than I, come to think of it.

No, I think you'd be better off saying that "we really want to left alone to do what we want to do - which is to be free to meddle in the affairs of just about every other nation on the planet".

We meddle clumsily because we're not very good at it, because we don't really like it. And feel free to use that sentence.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

Very funny play on words! :thumbs:

Got my flag out early to show appreciation and respect, as did all my neighbors...

Good morning, Jack. :2wave:

Good morning, Polgara.:2wave:

We're on the road in NYC so our flag won't fly today.eace

 

[Black Dog]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

I think racism against whites or whites crying about racist blacks is just over the top. Don't get me wrong any racism from anyone is just so wrong, but the fact is blacks don't control anything. They don't control the government, banking institutions etc, nothing. So what you actually have is the majority crying about a mistreated minority crying about wanting something for free. So both sides have shown to be ridiculous in their own way.

Anyway here are some blacks trying to tell blacks to STFU!







So please don't say blacks are not aware or not doing anything, speaking out about it etc. We are more than aware and speaking out about it. It is more liberal whites that want to stick their heads in the sand and say it's not the same, so look at that.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Racism Towards Whites

We meddle clumsily because we're not very good at it, because we don't really like it. And feel free to use that sentence.eace

"because we don't really like it"???? Oh, come on! Like somebody forced us to do regime change in Iran and Guatemala and other small and relatively powerless third-world nations! Like somebody forced us to invade Vietnam or Iraq, or to bomb or send cruise missiles into other nations, or to send troops to Lebanon or Mogadishu or to any of the other scores of nations where we have active-duty military (13 of which nations have more than 1,000 American active-duty military).

Here's another one - "Power is the most addictive drug". Do you disagree with that? I cannot imagine that you would. Yet you would have me believe that we "don't like" to use that power? Jack, if you were a young man who hadn't seen much of this world or didn't know that much about history, I'd tell you how naive you were being. But you're not young, you've seen a heck of a lot of this world, including quite a bit that I haven't seen. And you know better.

I'd heartily agree with you that we meddle clumsily...but why is that? That's another factor that supports my contention, for we as a nation - as compared to other first-world nations - are relatively uneducated when it comes to other nations and cultures. Americans like to think we appreciate history...but how many of us know what it's like to have five- or ten-century-old mosques or statues or freaking residential houses - some of which are older than anything built by non-natives in the Western Hemisphere - just down the street? You know how geographically illiterate many - or most - Americans are. Why is that? I'd say it's because we as a people and culture do not really feel the need to learn such things - that it's hubris on a national scale.

We don't think we need to know such things - besides, "The Bachelorette" is about to come on! *Gag*!

That's our 'cultural norm': "We don't need to learn about those of you in other countries, because we're America! But haven't you seen our aircraft carriers just off your coasts? That's four-and-a-half acres of Sovereign American Territory in pursuit of life, liberty, and all who threaten it!"