Racism And Traffic Stops

[MaggieD]

Yeah, that was my take-away from Caine and Donohue: that only my racist 'tude permits me to entertain the possibility that my cop shop may have a bias problem.

*Facepalm*

I didn't get that at all from you. I don't know how anyone would.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

You're right. What could I have been thinking? Imagine suggesting that racism occurs in Cleveland.

God have mercy, you WHITE people are so hyper-defensive -- you can't even allow anyone else to discuss the problem, and you'd be dead before you admitted we have one. This is so freakin' annoying.

Unless you have an alternative account posting under "the play drive" I am lost on why you would think that post was directed at you. But to clarify, it wasn't

 

[Pinkie]

I didn't get that at all from you. I don't know how anyone would.

Thanks, Mags. I appreciate that post.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Maybe if I wait another 15 minutes, racism in America will be once again become almost as verboten a topic as it was in the 1950's. WTF is wrong with some white people, that they can't even admit what is staring them in the damned face?

I do not intend to ignore racism in Cleveland anymore than I intend to ignore corruption here -- but the mere fact that I reasonably suspect it goes on does not mean I need a cross burnt on my damned lawn.

This reminds me of a quote by Jay-Z that consistently quells my frustration with people who ignore or minimize racism and other problems:

Rappers, as a class, are not engaged in anything criminal. They're musicians. Some rappers and friends of rappers commit crimes. Some bus drivers commit crimes. Some accountants commit crimes. But there aren't task forces devoted to bus drivers or accountants. Bus drivers don't have to work under the preemptive suspicion of law enforcement. The difference is obvious, of course: Rappers are young black men telling stories that the police, among others, don't want to hear. Rappers tend to come from places where police are accustomed to treating everybody like a suspect. The general style of rappers is offensive to a lot of people. But being offensive is not a crime, at least not one that's on the books. The fact that law enforcement treats rap like organized crime tells you a lot about just how deeply rap offends some people--they'd love for rap itself to be a crime, but until they get that law passed, they come after us however they can.

You can argue with a lot in that quote, but the bold is what I'm pointing to specifically. People often reject things that they simply do not want to hear because it destroys the reality that they're comfortable with. So if you just ignore it or the scale of it, then you don't have to deal with it. You don't have to feel like you have any part in it and you don't have to do anything about it because it "doesn't exist."

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

What's happening in this thread is the only thing that could have happened in a threat about racism and police officers. I'm sure I don't need to tell you, but racism, of course, is one of those topics that brings out people's defensiveness and that is so polarizing that people can't be rational about it for a variety of reasons.

At the same time, it's a thread about cops, who like firefighters, soldiers and other groups, are often treated as untouchable by much of the population which means that any hint of criticism is met with defensiveness and reproach.

That's why I choose not to engage some of the posts that I saw. I already know where that's going. It's going to end with someone accusing me of calling all cops racist, accusing me of being a racist, someone telling me that I'm just "too sensitive" and the like. Same ****, different day.

lol, it's hilarious watching you guys get worked up over people offering alternatives, trying to brow beat them into silence, then accuse the other side of such.

But further discussion seems pointless

 

[X Factor]

This is illegal; a cop needs probable cause to stop any vehicle.

The standard for a traffic stop is reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is what's required for arrest.

 

[Pinkie]

ahh, more empty hand waiving ...

Sorry, but it is hard to assert something as fact when your attempt to validate the data is solely limited to an attempt to poison the well for any alternative explanation and analysis of the data.


PS saying anyone that disagrees with you lacks the ability to objectively analyze the data and that they are attempting to "minimize racism" is indeed an attack on character

All that has been suggested thus far is that the problem MAY need to be addressed, as bias in traffic enforcement can have a much more detrimental effect on a community.

I have no idea why you feel so bound and determined to ridicule anyone who DOES want to examine the problem and address it, but it certainly does not feel right for me and my city to take this kind of advice.

 

[Pinkie]

The standard for a traffic stop is reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is what's required for arrest.

Thank you for correcting my error, X.

 

[Caine]

This is why people who feel they've been a victim of racism need to report it. If you report it, then that goes into the police officer's record. A police officer with a bunch of reports where his fellow officers do not will stand out and that's the most that any citizen can do to ensure that racist cops are dealt with.

Now, I've read several responses in your thread and I'm not going to address them directly because I'm not interested in going where they undoubtedly will, but 9 times out of 10, arguments that minimize racism and dismiss it easily are made by those who are privileged relative to racism because they have the luxury of not having to be on the receiving end. It's the same with those who tell gay people "leave marriage alone" or who tell women to just "be happy with where you are." It's most often a very privileged position that allows someone to dismiss prejudice and wave away any attempts to decrease it.

Or, they could just be members of the entire group someone is attempting to accuse of being racists based upon incomplete or insufficient evidence......

 

[ThePlayDrive]

ahh, more empty hand waiving ...

Sorry, but it is hard to assert something as fact when your attempt to validate the data is solely limited to an attempt to poison the well for any alternative explanation and analysis of the data.

PS saying anyone that disagrees with you lacks the ability to objectively analyze the data and that they are attempting to "minimize racism" is indeed an attack on character

Your post embodies the reasons why I did not address certain posters. Your post doesn't address my point, misses my point, criticizes me for doing something that you are doing (aka is hypocritical), uses hyperbolic language and then distorts what I said while using language that can only end in a pissing content. Thank you for confirming the rationality of my decision.

 

[X Factor]

Chris Rock has some insight with regard to this issue -

One of my favorite Chris Rock bits ever.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

All that has been suggested thus far is that the problem MAY need to be addressed, as bias in traffic enforcement can have much more detrimental effect on a community.

I have no ideas why you feel so bound and determined to ridicule anyone who DOES want to examine the problem and address, but it certainly does not feel right for me and my city to take this kind of advice.

lol, what are you even talking about? But again, the data asserting there was racism has been questioned on a number of reasonable grounds. Someone suggested the people making these arguments lacked the ability to be objective and were actively attempting to minimize racism. Since I was someone who brought up one of these alternatives, I felt I should address the criticism that was directed at me

for some unknown reason, that seems to have made you upset.

 

[Caine]

Indeed, why even bother addressing their points when you can just attack them and their character ...

PS also, the mere fact that you look at people offering alternative interpretations as "dismissing racism" is rather absurd in it's own right.

It also proves that he will, more often than not, immediately agree with any claim of racism without taking into consideration the factors that may have been overlooked in order to come to the original conclusion that racism is the reason for the disproportionate stats.

I mean, thats what studies like this do. They take raw data... then make an ASSUMPTION that because the raw data says this, than RACISM is the cause.

They make no attempt to analyze additional factors to determine if there is any cause other than racism within the set of data they are using.

At least this one attempted to figure out if a person was being polite or not..... where they got that information is unknown to me.

 

[mac]

Maybe if I wait another 15 minutes, racism in America will be once again become almost as verboten a topic as it was in the 1950's. WTF is wrong with some white people, that they can't even admit what is staring them in the damned face?

I do not intend to ignore racism in Cleveland anymore than I intend to ignore corruption here -- but the mere fact that I reasonably suspect it goes on does not mean I need a cross burnt on my damned lawn.

To be fair, it's not just whites that are racist.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Your post embodies the reasons why I did not address certain posters.

because you lack the ability to logically refute their points? Sorry, dismissive hand waiving isn't an argument

Your post doesn't address my point, misses my point

no, I'm pointing out "your point" had no logical basis and rested on various logical fallacies

criticizes me for doing something that you are doing (aka is hypocritical), uses hyperbolic language and then distorts what I said while using language that can only end in a pissing content. Thank you for confirming the rationality of my decision.

ahh, yes, pointing out your personal attacks and logical fallacies is itself a personal attack.

 

[Pinkie]

lol, what are you even talking about? But again, the data asserting there was racism has been questioned on a number of reasonable grounds. Someone suggested the people making these arguments lacked the ability to be objective and were actively attempting to minimize racism. Since I was someone who brought up one of these alternatives, I felt I should address the criticism that was directed at me

for some unknown reason, that seems to have made you upset.

I did not single you out -- I singled out Caine and Donohue, both of whom want to bury this study at midnight and never speak of it again.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

It also proves that he will, more often than not, immediately agree with any claim of racism without taking into consideration the factors that may have been overlooked in order to come to the original conclusion that racism is the reason for the disproportionate stats.

I mean, thats what studies like this do. They take raw data... then make an ASSUMPTION that because the raw data says this, than RACISM is the cause.

They make no attempt to analyze additional factors to determine if there is any cause other than racism within the set of data they are using.

At least this one attempted to figure out if a person was being polite or not..... where they got that information is unknown to me.

while this study may be flawed, I would not use that to dismiss every study on racism. It certainly exists, and in some places more than others

 

[ThePlayDrive]

because you lack the ability to logically refute their points? Sorry, dismissive hand waiving isn't an argument

no, I'm pointing out "your point" had no logical basis and rested on various logical fallacies

ahh, yes, pointing out your personal attacks and logical fallacies is itself a personal attack.

You still have yet to actually provide a counterargument to the argument of mine that you criticized. Instead, you have simply attacked my character which you criticized me for doing (which I actually did not do). Why is that?

 

[Caine]

Yanno, the defensiveness you have exhibited on this thread is annoying, Caine. I don't care if you believe me or not -- Cleveland has a problem with racism. A 6 year old could see it. Some of that racist 'tude affects how some of our cops do their jobs. The results of that can be devastating to this city, and can impact me personally.

I am so over this crap of bad/poor cops getting a pass from good ones. It's childish, and should be considered beneath your dignity.

All I spoke in favor of was a look-see and a retraining program, where needed, and half the damned white privilege types on DP came racing in here to tell me only a liberal with dementia can see racism anywhere in American law enforcement.

We both know that's bull****, but if you need to lie to yourself about this reality, have at it.

I have no connection with Cleveland. You do. You claim there is racism, and I am certain based upon THIS post that you had that opinion prior to this study. So obviously this study only validates your already pre-existing opinion so you are blinded to the fact that the factors not considered are an extremely important piece of the puzzle.

So, because I dare to point out the fact that the study is ignorant of key factors in the decision making process of officer discretion that I am somehow giving bad cops a pass? To make that statement, shows you have already pre-judged the officers to be bad based upon a lack of sufficient information.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I did not single you out -- I singled out Caine and Donohue, both of whom want to bury this study at midnight and never speak of it again.

lol, you directly quoted me

http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-and-order/139311-racism-and-traffic-stops-9.html#post1061021331

 

[Pinkie]

To be fair, it's not just whites that are racist.

Certainly not, although I can't really get a read on Cleveland's power structure. We have a black mayor and (mostly) black city council, but there are times they seem like nothing more than figureheads.

Meanwhile a cop on patrol in Cleveland makes about $85,000 a year and can make over $100,000 (this figure includes benefits). Someone want to explain to me why I can't hope to have professional cops (black, white or any other color) at this price?

 

[Caine]

No. This particular incident was at 0930...and I was in uniform.

So at 9:30 in the morning someone pulled you out of a car to do field sobriety tests? Sounds like you may have been up hitting the bottle a little too late the night before, or were so sleepy you weren't keeping it in your lane.......

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

You still have yet to actually provide a counterargument to the argument of mine that you criticized. Instead, you have simply attacked my character which you criticized me for doing (which I actually did not do). Why is that?

no, my counter argument was to point out you had no argument. That your argument was based on various logical fallacies, like attacking character and poisoning the well, and assumes that there can be NO alternative explanation that deviates from that which you simply *assume* to be true

PS and pointing this out isn't an attack on your character, it's an analysis of what YOU offered as an argument. Hence, dissecting it is perfectly proper and to be expected

 

[Pinkie]

lol, you directly quoted me

http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-and-order/139311-racism-and-traffic-stops-9.html#post1061021331

Fine, if you need to feel I treated you unfairly, be my guest.

 

[Pinkie]

So at 9:30 in the morning someone pulled you out of a car to do field sobriety tests? Sounds like you may have been up hitting the bottle a little too late the night before, or were so sleepy you weren't keeping it in your lane.......

Or possibly that the cop was biased?

Do you have to resign the FOP if ever you admit that cops are human too, Caine?