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Putin Calls Ukrainian Statehood a Fiction. History Suggests Otherwise.

NewfieMom

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Vladimir Putin's speech attempting to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine glorified Russia's history. He denied that Ukraine had a history of its own. Observers saw this desire to erase Ukraine from history as significant. It showed that Mr. Putin was attempting to do more than to reinstate the the Soviet Union, that he was attempting to replace the cultures of other ethnic groups in what had once been the Soviet Union with the Russian culture.

This article gives some background on the reality of the history of Ukraine and Russia.

"Ukraine and Russia share roots stretching back to the first Slavic state, Kievan Rus, a Medieval empire founded by Vikings in the 9th century.
But the historical reality of Ukraine is complicated, a thousand-year history of changing religions, borders and peoples. The capital, Kyiv, was established hundreds of years before Moscow, and both Russians and Ukrainians claim it as a birthplace of their modern cultures, religion and language.
Kyiv was ideally situated along the trade routes that developed in the ninth and 10th centuries, and flourished only to see its economic influence diminish as trade shifted elsewhere. The many conquests by warring factions and Ukraine’s diverse geography — with farmland, forests and a maritime environment on the Black Sea — created a complex fabric of multiethnic states.
The history and culture of Russia and Ukraine are indeed intertwined — they share the same Orthodox Christian religion, and their languages, customs and national cuisines are related."

 

RabidAlpaca

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He pulled it from the Israeli playbook.

"We don't consider it a country so we can do whatever the hell we want to them!"

I really hope the west crushes Russia's nuts economically for this.
 

NewfieMom

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He pulled it from the Israeli playbook.

"We don't consider it a country so we can do whatever the hell we want to them!"

I really hope the west crushes Russia's nuts economically for this.
Don't blame Israel for a move as old as mankind: grabbing your neighbor's land.
 

CaughtInThe

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He pulled it from the Israeli playbook.

"We don't consider it a country so we can do whatever the hell we want to them!"

I really hope the west crushes Russia's nuts economically for this.
It's brilliant.

And evil.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Don't blame Israel for a move as old as mankind: grabbing your neighbor's land.
I didn't, I compared it to their tactic of pretending it's OK because they don't personally believe it's a country. It's a dehumanizing technique based on views of racial and cultural superiority. I'll call out that bullshit when and where I see it.

The invasion is 100% Russia's fault, despite the American right trying to claim its Joe Biden's fault for making them do it.
 

NewfieMom

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I didn't, I compared it to their tactic of pretending it's OK because they don't personally believe it's a country. It's a dehumanizing technique based on views of racial and cultural superiority. I'll call out that bullshit when and where I see it.

The invasion is 100% Russia's fault, despite the American right trying to claim its Joe Biden's fault for making them do it.
I hold a huge resentment at Israel right now for bulldozing Palestinian housing and killing an elderly Palestinian man who had lived in his home and neighborhood. I hate what Israel does.
What I resent is having Israel dragged into a discussion for no reason at all.
You can be sanctimonious about your right to call out what you think is right, but I think you shed no light on the current discussion by discussing Israel.
 

RabidAlpaca

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I hold a huge resentment at Israel right now for bulldozing Palestinian housing and killing an elderly Palestinian man who had lived in his home and neighborhood. I hate what Israel does.
What I resent is having Israel dragged into a discussion for no reason at all.
You can be sanctimonious about your right to call out what you think is right, but I think you shed no light on the current discussion by discussing Israel.
Stop talking about Israel and get on topic. I'm here to talk about Russia, and pointing out that they're using an Israeli tactic doss not make the entire thread about Israel.
 

NewfieMom

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Stop talking about Israel and get on topic. I'm here to talk about Russia, and pointing out that they're using an Israeli tactic doss not make the entire thread about Israel.
OK. I'll stop. But maybe you should have kept your mouth shut.
 

joluoto

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No statehood is fiction. All states have a history, a past, even young states like Ukraine. Ukrainian national identity is a product of the later 1800s and early 1900s, but has roots further back (such as much of Ukraine for a long time being part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rather than the Russian Empire). While the medieval Rus being the loose ancestor of the four East Slavic groups today (Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians and Rusyns), it doesn't mean they are the same people. All history matters. You can't claim another nation isn't real or doesn't exist because some common ancestry or because they were part of your nation some time ago. Even in the Soviet era Ukraine was a SSR, meaning the USSR on principle agreed Ukrainians and Russians are not the same thing. An identity exist because people choose to have it. All identities were born that way, including the Russian identity.
 

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Vladimir Putin's speech attempting to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine glorified Russia's history. He denied that Ukraine had a history of its own. Observers saw this desire to erase Ukraine from history as significant. It showed that Mr. Putin was attempting to do more than to reinstate the the Soviet Union, that he was attempting to replace the cultures of other ethnic groups in what had once been the Soviet Union with the Russian culture.

This article gives some background on the reality of the history of Ukraine and Russia.

"Ukraine and Russia share roots stretching back to the first Slavic state, Kievan Rus, a Medieval empire founded by Vikings in the 9th century.
But the historical reality of Ukraine is complicated, a thousand-year history of changing religions, borders and peoples. The capital, Kyiv, was established hundreds of years before Moscow, and both Russians and Ukrainians claim it as a birthplace of their modern cultures, religion and language.
Kyiv was ideally situated along the trade routes that developed in the ninth and 10th centuries, and flourished only to see its economic influence diminish as trade shifted elsewhere. The many conquests by warring factions and Ukraine’s diverse geography — with farmland, forests and a maritime environment on the Black Sea — created a complex fabric of multiethnic states.
The history and culture of Russia and Ukraine are indeed intertwined — they share the same Orthodox Christian religion, and their languages, customs and national cuisines are related."

Putin is good at gaslighting. Ukraine became a nation in 1991.
 

RabidAlpaca

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OK. I'll stop. But maybe you should have kept your mouth shut.
I'll make comparisons to whatever the **** I want whenever I want. You haven't contributed a single on topic sentence to this thread. Keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything relevant or valuable to add.
 

NewfieMom

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I'll make comparisons to whatever the **** I want whenever I want. You haven't contributed a single on topic sentence to this thread. Keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything relevant or valuable to add.
I started this thread and wrote its introduction. I thought that Putin's attempt to eradicate the culture of Ukraine, which differs from that of Russia, was worthy of a thread. I also thought that Putin's speech was chilling.
 

MaryP

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I started this thread and wrote its introduction. I thought that Putin's attempt to eradicate the culture of Ukraine, which differs from that of Russia, was worthy of a thread. I also thought that Putin's speech was chilling.
Is there a full English translation yet?
 

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The Antes were ancestors of the Ukrainians who were ancestors of the Russians. Kyiv was the country established in the early 600s, hundreds of yrs before Muscovy, that became Ukraine and became the national identity of both Ukrainians and Russians. So much for Ukrainian statehood being a fiction.
 

NewfieMom

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Thank you! Guy should have been an English major...can't say anything without making an essay out of it (I'm guilty too--full disclosure)

Actually, @MaryP, I do not trust that website. I did not research it before linking to it as I should have. I cannot find the speech translated anywhere else on the web, which makes me suspicious of that translation.. I now see that the website blames the Jews for most of history's problems.
 

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I think Vladimir Putin should step up and declare Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, South Carolina, Michigan and Missouri
as "independent states" now.
 

MaryP

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Actually, @MaryP, I do not trust that website. I did not research it before linking to it as I should have. I cannot find the speech translated anywhere else on the web, which makes me suspicious of that translation.. I now see that the website blames the Jews for most of history's problems.
Thx for the heads up. The Kremlin has issued a translation, too, so it's probably a copy and paste.

 

NewfieMom

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I think Vladimir Putin should step up and declare Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, South Carolina, Michigan and Missouri
as "independent states" now.

Would the citizens of these new "independent states" have to speak Russian?
 
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