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Prove God's Existence

leejosepho said:
Simply curious because I have never before heard that from anyone, I ask that you might share at least a glimpse of how you learned at a Christian School to be an Atheist?
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I learned the teachings of the Bible in school and they made no sense to me. After realizing that the stories in the Bible were not probable (maybe even impossible) I decided to ignore the stories of that book and believe in a god without it. Then I got a little older and learned the concepts of science and they made more sense to me. Science was a more possible way of explaining everything around me so I stopped believing in a god all together. Science offered evidence where the Bible could not. My mind understood the teachings of biology, physics, etc. and could not comprehend religion any longer. I learned all this as I went to Christian school. Religion and science were taught side by side and science had more basis. When I gave up religion, a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders. I felt like I could be myself.

Of course my parents were very upset to learn I was an Atheist. They spent a ton of money towards my Christian education. But that is a risk that is taken when people impose their beliefs on others, even there own children.
 
only problem is that in proving htere is a god, one must define what God is. That in itself is such a large undertaking (and also requires much proof) that proving His existance is near an impossibility.
 
nkgupta80 said:
only problem is that in proving htere is a god, one must define what God is. That in itself is such a large undertaking (and also requires much proof) that proving His existance is near an impossibility.
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That is to say that the reality of God's existence rest solely on the ability of your finite mind to infinately understand it.
 
Snoozin said:
Very poignant story too, Galenrox. We are more similar than you know. My life is good now, too, only problem is I keep waiting for the bottom to drop out.
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If you wait for the bottom to fall out, then it will. I truly believe that every person is in control of their own lives. If you want a life that is fulfilling, then it will be. Ambition is obtainable by all people. Sounds like you need to do some serious searching into your own mind. Take some time to yourself and figure out who you are. Allow yourself to find out what it is you exactly want and everything should fall into place from there. If the bottom still falls out, be there to catch yourself. We all fall into low points. The trick is to learn from them. Stand up, dust yourself off, and move on.
 
alex said:
Reread my post. I said nothing about "people in the world." Those numbers are from people in this country. But since you brought it up, these numbers reflect a trend that is happening in all major countries in the world.
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I know you didnt say 'people in the world', because you had only mentioned stats of America...which i don't see the point in why you did.
I mean just cause there is an increase in athiesm isnt going to cause me to 'jump on the bandwagon' on deny God.
 
Logical Clariority: If God is Defined as "A Omnipotent, Wholly Good Being" And Yet Evil Exists, Then It is logically impossible for God to exist while being Omnipotent and Wholly Good. So Thats a Logical Slap for you people out there, that version of god is simply impossible. There can be other versions though
 

The problem is that faith is belief without logical proof or material evidence.

I would ask why you want to believe?
 
It is not empirically possible to prove either the existence of a God or the absence of a God. This is why religion is a faith-based initiative, and why God is proposed to exist in a metaphysical realm. There are excellent philosophical arguments both for and against the existence of a deistic entity. Ultimately, either an acceptence of, or a denial of God... resides within each individual.


 
Snoozin said:
Thank you Viper, you are very kind. I actually have 3 Bibles (different versions), the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, the Talmud, and the Qur'an. :smile: But I will definitely re-read the Gospel of John.
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Snoozy,

I don’t mean to offend you in any way. If I do offend, I do it not with an evil heart, but with a heart filled with love for you. God isn’t the God of confusion, but a God of love and clarity. I understand your search for the Living God, but much like any search you can only find what you’re looking for in the proper places. To place things into perspective, as much as you may search you will never find an eagle on the bottom of the sea. To find an eagle you must look for it in it’s habitat…the sky, a tree, a mountain.

My dearest friend, God is already written on your heart. He is calling your name. He is asking you to come out of the darkness, come into his bosom so he can hold you, love you. Unfortunately satan has placed many roads before us. Hoping, probing us to choose his path. There is only one road leading to our Almighty God. This road is a light, a beacon to him who loves us. The path I speak of, the only way to God is through our Lord and our Savior, Jesus, The Christ.

When I speak of his Holy Word, I speak of the New and the Old Testament…The Holy Bible. When I witness, I witness Christ. Here is a link for a free online Bible…http://www.blueletterbible.org/ My offer still stands, I will be over joyed to send one to you if you wish. I have been praying for you and Timequake. If either of you ever wanted, it would be a pleasure to pray with you on the phone, you could call me collect if you wish. If either of you want, I will study his word with you through emails.

Love in Christ our Lord
Daniel
 
alex said:
You pointed out that you wanted a quiet discussion. Have I been yelling?
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Thank you for your several responses, Alex, and no, certainly not! And for the record, I only made mention of "quiet discussion" to try to let you know I would try to help keep this one from becoming like some of my discussions with others.

Here combining my question and your response:


Understood as to setting, but I was meaning more to ask why people even "demand proof" at all. For you or for anyone else, I am inclined to believe that demand at least sometimes stems from something like this:

alex said:
How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
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In other words, maybe some people want proof *before* they believe? If so, I would share that I eventually *began* to believe after first being but willing *to* believe, and to act on my “desire for proof” by doing a little "taste and see" investigation or “experimentation":

"Oh, taste and see that YHWH is good; Blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!" (Psalm 34:8)

But of course, I definitely understand there are many reasons people either cannot or will not always do that.


Again understood, and yes, I would say essentially the same: Either show your alien or offer some way to “proof” your claim of having found one. But when it comes to the matter of “God”, would you not agree that many people are insisting He does *not* exist even before someone else might even get to ask, “Wanna see?”

In my own case, at least some people enjoy hearing about my recovery from alcoholism – I can tell quite a sad-or-funny story, take your pick, with my evidence presented throughout – right up to the time I answer somebody’s “How?” question by mentioning “God” ... and then they immediately insist *everything* I am saying is nothing but a bunch of hooey. In other words, “expecting evidence” is not the issue for people already refusing to believe an “alien” of any kind exists anywhere, and who “demand proof” they have no intention of considering.

Posting this for now, I return to reading your responses ...
 

Thank you for that insight into your life experience so far. Either the folks at that school are to be commended for not using some form of mind control to mold you into their particular version of a “cute, little Christian” when you first got there, or you were somehow protected from that kind of thing if they were trying to "church"-school you.

Question: Were there then any or many “outside influences” – friends, peers, neighbors, a librarian – either affecting or effecting your interpretations and understandings of things toward either side of the religion-science debate?

alex said:
I learned the teachings of the Bible in school ...
Religion and science were taught side by side ...
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Do you distinguish at all between “the teachings of the Bible” and “religion”?

alex said:
... my parents were very upset to learn I was an Atheist. They spent a ton of money towards my Christian education. But that is a risk that is taken when people impose their beliefs on others, even their own children.
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Since at least my father was a tyrannical Christian, it is believable to me that Christianity actually could have been being literally “imposed on you” by your parents, but is it at least possible their ultimately being “very upset” had more to do with mere assumption or expectation on their part? Today, neither of my parents are at all pleased with me – they are *quite* disappointed and even nasty at times – because I have rejected Christianity and will not pretend we have some kind of “life on the side” to share, but I know their silence toward me – how about yours? – comes primarily from their being afraid to even listen.
 
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Correction and apology:

While working in plain text in my word processor, I missed the fact that the following was actually posted by Snoozin and quoted by Alex ...

Snoozin said:
... I have a question for you, [Alex,] since I'm assuming you don't believe in God. How do you prove he doesn't exist, or does that not have any bearing on whether you believe or not? I cannot prove or disprove His existence. I've tried both.
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This question is impossible to answer...
No proof of existence, no proof of non-existence.
You will never know until you die, so believe what you feel is the truth.
 

Did you become a "reborn" after alcoholism?
 

No outside influences. I knew only people that believed in a god. I got to Atheism on my own.
 
alex said:
Did you become a "reborn" after alcoholism?
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Wow! Until this moment, I had long forgotten about that question which, with my twenty-five-year Christian past, really used to bother me. But yes, I believe I would say that.
 
alex said:
No outside influences. I knew only people that believed in a god. I got to Atheism on my own.
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I almost worded my post to include that possibility, but I was reasonably sure you would say so, if so.
 

Greetings, Susan.

Yes, it makes complete sense: You are looking for something or for “someone” that will absolutely not let you down (once again?) in the end, correct?

I had initially written to you, “He proves Himself at the personal level when, one by one, we who become desperate and/or at least willing reach out to Him and leave the results to Him”, and I now see I might have done a little better than that.

First, there is something you will have to get out the way ...

... in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. ~ Anne Frank
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... and the reason for that is this:

“If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome [our struggles with life], many of us would have [done so] long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us ...
“We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but ...
“Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.”

In other words, any philosophy or viewpoint including the idea that we humans are inherently good and simply in need of a little help or direction ...

Understand? Rhetorically: If that is true, then why did I ever, and why do you now seek “Him”?

Snoozin said:
... in extraordinarily hard times ... is when an individual is supposed to believe in God.
...
My life is good now ... only problem is I keep waiting for the bottom to drop out.
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If the bottom does drop out, that will likely be the result of an overall combination of things, but a key factor will definitely be witting or even unwitting dependence upon people who first also believed they were inherently good, or somehow “good at heart” ... and there is much more to talk about there. But if I might back up a bit to your “believe in hard times” thought:

Many years ago, I watched a movie in which a man swam far out to sea for the purpose of suicide by drowning, but he changed his mind before actually going down. Afraid he might not make it back to shore, he began praying and making all kinds of promises ... promises that eventually began diminishing in direct proportion to his nearness to the beach, and by the time he eventually reached shore, rested for a bit and walked away, he was down to something like, “Hey, thanks, and maybe see you later if something comes up again.”

Abba-Father is not looking for foul-weather-only friends.

Snoozin said:
Have I ever completely given myself over to God? Probably not, although I have tried ...
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My swimmer anecdote hopefully makes a point, yet I realize it does not fit you precisely: “I have tried ...”

Snoozin said:
I feel closer spiritually to Judaism and Islam even though I was raised Christian.
I must pray directly to God; in my heart I feel as if Jesus Christ, although I respect him very much, is an intercessor.
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Generally speaking, you have things in the right order there: Judaism – Islam – Christianity. And personally, I can assure you that what you are looking for is what actually preceded Judaism: the “Sinai experience”. For, it is there that YHWH’s Power to deliver, His Love in provision, and right fellowship (with Him and others) and worship was made known in a way that is both understandable and actually doable.


Greetings to you also, Timequake, and I have been in that very place. Then having nothing but mere beliefs, I spent the first twenty-five years of my life being “a good Christian” ... then “believing in beliefs” – religion – all proved to be a big lie when my life fell completely apart (mostly at my own hand, I later saw). But since that time, and with several years of insane living in-between, I have had that “moment of clarity” you have mentioned, and it now continues to grow and expand ... even to this very moment!

Snoozin said:
In a psychology class in high school, we learned about a mental/emotional state called an epiphany, where you feel outrageously happy, but it's bigger than that, it has to do with feeling like one with the universe.
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Actually, the “peace that passes understanding” comes from or through a oneness with YHWH, Abba-Father, Himself:

“Rejoice in יהוה always, again I say, rejoice! Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Master is near. Do not worry at all, but in every matter, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to Elohim. And the peace of Elohim, which surpasses all understanding, shall guard your hearts and minds through Messiah יהושע” (Philippians 4:4-7).

Snoozin said:
I *do* feel that way, but it's when I'm thinking of the concepts of good and justice and truth. If I can feel so wonderful thinking about these concepts, why don't I *feel* that way when thinking / praying / talking / wondering about God?
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Because your desire to actually experience those things has yet to be fully satisfied.

Snoozin said:
Sometimes I see Him so clearly, but those times are few and far between ...
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Oh, but once you get (or have been) to the mountain ...


Personally, that is a question I am still trying to answer myself, but I do know there is *some* kind of thought or “instinct” or calling present here or you would not be talking about it, and that whatever kind you have is sufficient to act upon.

Snoozin said:
I read somewhere that people who have strong faith have a more active region in the ventral prefrontal cortex of the brain (or something like that).
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Well! Might that explain why the “doc” once put me on Thorazine?!


Sounds fine to me.

Snoozin said:
... when I was going to church as a child, God was emphasized way more than Jesus Christ was ...
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... just like in Scripture, and even by The Messiah, Master, Himself.

If I might ask: What church?

Belatedly: Shabbat Shalom.
 
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MrFungus420 said:
The problem is that faith is belief without logical proof or material evidence.

I would ask why you want to believe?
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Why? Because this life's been so miserable I'm really hoping for an afterlife free of pain. Selfish, huh?
 

Hello. :smile: Wow, you've give me a *lot* to think about here. Can I ask what you mean by the Sinai Experience? And how does this predate Judaism? Just curious....my knowledge of biblical history is not as good as it should be.

Also, I was intermittently brought up in the Episcopal Church in the 70s, when it was quite an anti-war activist church. Intermittently because my mother suffers from a lot of phobias including agoraphobia and would not take us out very often. So when I went to church it was because my grandmother took me. The services are different today. Not sure of the reason, pisky churches can be a bit weird at times anyway. :smile:
 
You can't prove he exists, but what other explanation is there for everything in the world.
 
People need to get one idea in there heads: There are diferent Interpretations of God/Gods.

The Term of a Wholly Good Omnipotent God in a world of Evil is clearly a impossible term and must be discarded if a person is rational.

Yet that does not mean divine things dont exist, there could be a god whos not purely good , or not omnipotent totally. Or many gods, or god "died" or such. There are many other explanations.

Good arguments for the Existence of The Divine exist, and so do Rational Arguments against Christianity and Islam views of God, which contradict themselves and thus cant be true.
 

that post is inspiring... I am truly happy that you have found your happiness. if there is a god, that is what its about, and I have found that through another way. But back to the question at hand- to prove god is impossible, in what you want to seek. If you want true physical proof you will never have it. if you want the next best thing- that story is it. I too have tried to beleive in god, but in the end, I chose to deify myself and that made me happy, because I understood myself, instead of having to hope someone else up there was listening, I could listen to myself and deliver myself from anything. (thank you anton la vey) so thats my take... dont force urself to beleive in something you cant
 
Snoozin said:
Hello. :smile: Wow, you've give me a *lot* to think about here. Can I ask what you mean by the Sinai Experience? And how does this predate Judaism? Just curious....my knowledge of biblical history is not as good as it should be.
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By "the Sinai experience", I mean something like this ...

Imagine being a descendent of Abraham who knew about a promise that your people would become many and great, but you find yourself completely trapped - some folks might say snared - making bricks in an evil place. Then one of your own people you had thought was one of "them" shows up and gets the Pharoah sufficiently rattled to send you out into the desert ...

Those folks had been delivered from bondage just as surely as that same Power can deliver anyone to this very day ...

Those folks were provided for just as surely as we can be provisioned today ...

Those folks learned to live in a "fellowship and worship" experience that is just as available to us today:

"Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" ("A.A.", page 63).

Delivered, reconciled, transformed ...

... that is "the Sinai experience".

And, some folks would say Judaism was drawn from that.
 
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like the author of this thread, most people start to disbelieve in god when hard times come. you have to realize that god doesnt create bad things. bad things are simply the absence of good things. darkness is hte absence of light, hunger is the absence of food, disease is the absence of health.
 
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