Proposition 8 Dies with a Whimper.

[Master PO]

I get the point you're trying to make, but the single biggest difference between marriage and everything else on your list is that nobody else's rights are impacted when two (or more) people get married,...whereas all of those other issues involve the rights of various parties coming into conflict with one another.

I get the point you're trying to make, but the single biggest difference between marriage and everything else on your list is that nobody else's rights are impacted when two (or more) people get married...............correct!

whereas all of those other issues involve the rights of various parties coming into conflict with one another..............tell me, what rights exercisable...... the people have on my property...to tell me i cant discriminate or have smoking?........becuase you dont have an exercisable right on my property at all.

 

[TiredOfLife]

no becuase that is a infringement of the right of a child, the other would be a infringement of the rights of other property owners near by........and those are terrible examples.


can i as a business owner, allow smoking in my business .....yes.....can i discriminate against people i wish to ...yes..........why?


becuase the property is my property, i force no one through the door to make them breath the smoke, a person has free will to enter or not enter.

i can discriminate, becuase i have the right to association because its my business, i dont have to engage in commerce with you ..i can refuse........you have the option of going to another business.

the constitution places no restrictions on people or business, unless they infringe on the rights of people, or could infringe............again rights of people, by using ......u.s.code

you dont have a right to be served by me, or a right to enter my property.

Let me help you out again. If your business is a Public Accommodation, you have a very limited right to refuse service. It's the law. And, smoking is not allowed because it's not just smokers that smoke when someone does. Second-hand smoke is the reasoning behind the ban. You are affecting other people unless everyone smokes, and they don't. Now if all the smokers were doing was popping a legal pill, you'd be allowed to do that in a public place or a public accommodation.

You seem to believe that if you own something you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't affect other people, and that is simply not true.

 

[Master PO]

Let me help you out again. If your business is a Public Accommodation, you have a very limited right to refuse service. It's the law. And, smoking is not allowed because it's not just smokers that smoke when someone does. Second-hand smoke is the reasoning behind the ban. You are affecting other people unless everyone smokes, and they don't. Now if all the smokers were doing was popping a legal pill, you'd be allowed to do that in a public place or a public accommodation.

You seem to believe that if you own something you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't affect other people, and that is simply not true.

sorry .... Public Accommodation is a law created by government placing restrictions on people, who have committed no crime.

how can laws be made to restrict the population, which have not infringed on the rights of other people.

when a person infringes on the rights of another person, they are committing a crime, then the government does it its a constitutional violation.......a citizen cannot violate the constitution.

Public Accommodation is a law stating you cannot discriminate........how?..their is nothing under the constitution which states i myself cannot discriminate..its states government cannot discriminate......not the people.

you are applying the constitutional restrictions placed on the government...to the people also.........and thats not correct......becuase the constitution does not limit citizens at all.

 

[TiredOfLife]

sorry .... Public Accommodation is a law created by government placing restrictions on people, who have committed no crime.

how can laws be made to restrict the population, which have not infringed on the rights of other people.

when a person infringes on the rights of another person, they are committing a crime, then the government does it its a constitutional violation.......a citizen cannot violate the constitution.

Public Accommodation is a law stating you cannot discriminate........how?..their is nothing under the constitution which states i myself cannot discriminate..its states government cannot discriminate......not the people.

you are applying the constitutional restrictions placed on the government...to the people also.........and thats not correct......becuase the constitution does not limit citizens at all.

You need the learn the Public Accommodation laws. It's very much not what you think and it's sound law, but it does restrict what a property owner can do. If you hate that you must really hate Eminent Domain?

And a crime? It is a crime for me to play the same song over and over again, not too loud but loud enough so that my neighbor can't take sitting on their back porch when I do because it drives them crazy? I am very much affecting them but I'm breaking no law. The same if I paint my house with pictures of rainbows and butterflies that lowers the property values of the house around me, It's not illegal but I am surely affecting them.

Your arguments are non-starters. Those laws are settled law. Sorry. Now I should get back to my No Jews or Blacks but you can smoke like a chimney gas station. It's the only one for 200 miles so remember to gas up there you Jews and Blacks. We don't serve your kind.

 

[Master PO]

You need the learn the Public Accommodation laws. It's very much not what you think and it's sound law, but it does restrict what a property owner can do. If you hate that you must really hate Eminent Domain?

And a crime? It is a crime for me to play the same song over and over again, not too loud but loud enough so that my neighbor can't take sitting on their back porch when I do because it drives them crazy? I am very much affecting them but I'm breaking no law. The same if I paint my house with pictures of rainbows and butterflies that lowers the property values of the house around me, It's not illegal but I am surely affecting them.

Your arguments are non-starters. Those laws are settled law. Sorry. Now I should get back to my No Jews or Blacks but you can smoke like a chimney gas station. It's the only one for 200 miles so remember to gas up there you Jews and Blacks. We don't serve your kind.

you need to learn constitutional law...which is supreme law.

under the constitution government has only 18 powers...only.

a citizen can only violate 4 of those 18 powers.....since a person can only violate those 4.... government can make laws on citizens, which commit one of those crimes.


those crimes are......Taxes, Piracy, counterfeiting, and treason.

Taxes..... the 16th amendment
Piracy.....To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations...article 1 section 8
Counterfeiting ......To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; a power of congress article 1 section 8
Treason........against those who would seek to collude with other government against the u.s.


a citizen cannot violate any other power of congress...so how can congress create a law, which is outside its delegated powers of government.

Eminent Domain.........per the constitution ,was meant that if property were taken..it had to benefit the nation as a whole...not the one.... a few, or a select group.

 

[TiredOfLife]

you need to learn constitutional law...which is supreme law.

under the constitution government has only 18 powers...only.

a citizen can only violate 4 of those 18 powers.....since a person can only violate those 4.... government can make laws on citizens, which commit one of those crimes.


those crimes are......Taxes, Piracy, counterfeiting, and treason.

Taxes..... the 16th amendment
Piracy.....To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations...article 1 section 8
Counterfeiting ......To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; a power of congress article 1 section 8
Treason........against those who would seek to collude with other government against the u.s.


a citizen cannot violate any other power of congress...so how can congress create a law, which is outside its delegated powers of government.

Your arguments are as dead as your ideology. Deal with reality, we aren't going back to 1789.

 

[Master PO]

Your arguments are as dead as your ideology. Deal with reality, we aren't going back to 1789.

really, show me in the constitution were your argument is valid.

 

[TiredOfLife]

really, show me in the constitution were your argument is valid.

LOL. That's just it, I don't have to, it's settled law, for everyone but you and a few other people who can't deal with reality.

 

[Master PO]

LOL. That's just it, I don't have to, it's settled law, for everyone but you and a few other people who can't deal with reality.

let me show you something else in the constitution, you may not know of:

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings




this states right here congress has only authority in a 10 sq mile area of d.c. or where the state give it authority to act, for federal buildings only.......government cannot own land, or have no legislative authority on state or private land/property.

 

[TiredOfLife]

let me show you something else in the constitution, you may not know of:

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings




this states right here congress has only authority in a 10 sq mile area of d.c. or where the state give it authority to act, for federal buildings only.......government cannot own land, or have no legislative authority on state or private land.

I actually mean this in the nicest way possible, tell it to someone who cares.

 

[Master PO]

I actually mean this in the nicest way possible, tell it to someone who cares.

so what you and many people are saying is.....to he** with the constitution, as long as i get things done my way.

 

[TiredOfLife]

so what you and many people are saying is.....to he** with the constitution, as long as i get things done my way.

You can deal with the realities of the US in 2013, or you can try to live in 1789? It's your call but the rest of us, for the most part, have made our decision. Been there, not going back.

 

[Master PO]

You can deal with the realities of the US in 2013, or you can try to live in 1789? It's your call but the rest of us, for the most part, have made our decision. Been there, not going back.

so your saying you want the government to put restrictions on the people, and therefore violate their rights.

 

[TiredOfLife]

so your saying you want the government to put restrictions on the people, and therefore violate their rights.

We The People. In order to work together for our mutual benefit and security, some liberties must be curtailed. It has nothing to do with want and everything to do with being realistic, which you seem to be trying to avoid? Look up the Social Contract and the Constitution. You'll find it interesting, to say the least.

 

[Master PO]

We The People. In order to work together for our mutual benefit and security, some liberties must be curtailed. It has nothing to do with want and everything to do with being realistic, which you seem to be trying to avoid? Look up the Social Contract and the Constitution. You'll find it interesting, to say the least.

sorry, what rights can government curtail, if i have committed no crime?

the bill of rights is a limitation on the government not to violate rights, it does not give them authority to violate rights of the people.


James madison--"We, the delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared, as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us, to decide thereon--DO, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression; and that every power not granted thereby remains with them, and at their will. That, therefore, no right of any denomination can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the Congress, by the Senate or House of Representatives, acting in any capacity, by the President, or any department or officer of the United States, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes; and that, among other essential rights, the liberty of conscience and of the press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by any authority of the United States."

 

[TiredOfLife]

sorry, what rights can government curtail, if i have committed no crime?

the bill of rights is a limitation on the government not to violate rights, it does not give them authority to violate rights of the people.


James madison--"We, the delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared, as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us, to decide thereon--DO, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression; and that every power not granted thereby remains with them, and at their will. That, therefore, no right of any denomination can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the Congress, by the Senate or House of Representatives, acting in any capacity, by the President, or any department or officer of the United States, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes; and that, among other essential rights, the liberty of conscience and of the press cannot be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by any authority of the United States."

I'll play for a bit. Tell me, the First Amendment, can you say whatever you like whenever you like without restriction?

 

[Master PO]

I'll play for a bit. Tell me, the First Amendment, can you say whatever you like whenever you like without restriction?

when your on your own property or public property where a person has the ability to walk away from your speech ...yes!

when your on public property, and you have a captive audience..like in the DMV........no you dont have free speech.

 

[TiredOfLife]

when your on your own property or public property where a person has the ability to walk away from your speech ...yes!

when your on public property, and you have a captive audience..like in the DMV........no you dont have free speech.

Alright, so in this example you own a theater. And for whatever reason, you decide to yell fire when there is no fire. The people are free to leave right, and it's your property but you aren't restraining them and they can leave at any time. So, have you just broken the law?

 

[Master PO]

Alright, so in this example you own a theater. And for whatever reason, you decide to yell fire when there is no fire. The people are free to leave right, and it's your property but you aren't restraining them and they can leave at any time. So, have you just broken the law?

another bad example, used to many times........

yelling fire is not against the law........its the consequences of your actions that are the problem.

if i yell fire in the theater, and no one moves, and everyone's continues to sit and watch the movie.....what law has been broken, ..who is the victim?

its only falls under the law, becuase your yelling fire can cause damage to people or property or even death to a person, or lost of revenue.... and you can be held accountable for that.

 

[TiredOfLife]

another bad example, used to many times........

yelling fire is not against the law........its the consequences of your actions that are the problem.

if i yell fire in the theater, and no one moves, and everyone's continues to sit and watch the movie.....what law has been broken, ..who is the victim?

its only falls under the law, becuase your yelling fire can cause damage to people or property or even death to a person, or lost of revenue.... and you can be held accountable for that.

It has to do with the potential to cause a panic, like inciting a riot, both of which are illegal, as well as threatening to kill the President. It doesn't matter if nothing happens, the law says you cannot do this. You can't plan a murder either, even if all you are doing is planning. So, the First Amendment is limited, like all rights. Now go read up on why that is true? The Social Contract and the Constitution.

 

[Master PO]

It has to do with the potential to cause a panic, like inciting a riot, both of which are illegal, as well as threatening to kill the President. It doesn't matter if nothing happens, the law says you cannot do this. You can't plan a murder either, even if all you are doing is planning. So, the First Amendment is limited, like all rights. Now go read up on why that is true? The Social Contract and the Constitution.

tell me how do you try a man for a crime, if their is no victim?

in citing riot, threat i am advocating the death of someone, yelling fire does not advocate such.

the first amendment is not limited, in the sense government can limit you becuase they want to , only if you commit a crime can your rights be curtailed

the constitution is a social compact between the states and the federal government...what is the social compact you site, opposite of the constitution, ...becuase i know of no such thing.

and you might try reading the preamble to the bill of rights, which states that all the amendments are restrictive to the federal government.

 

[Kal'Stang]

So basically you're celebrating that the supreme court of a state decided not to honor the electoral will of the people. Yay. :roll:

Does this mean you'll all celebrate the next time this happens when it's an issue you voted for? Somehow I doubt it. We'll hear a different story then accompanied by groaning and complaining about the loss of democracy in America.

Sorry but mob rule should never win out when it comes to a persons Rights. And like it or not, consensual informed marriage is a fundemental right.

 

[Master PO]

Sorry but mob rule should never win out when it comes to a persons Rights. And like it or not, consensual informed marriage is a fundemental right.

i agree with you in the sense people are free to make a marriage contract, between themselves...however marriage as a right which could compel a third person to preform a ceremony would be unconstitutional.

 

[Kal'Stang]

The main reason I disagree is because I never have (and never will) view marriage as a right. People can say it all they want, but it is not a right. It is a privilege.

Also, that's exactly what democracy means. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. It's why Churchill stated that the biggest argument against it is a five minute conversation with your average voter.

When you allow judges to create policy, you're just eroding your freedoms away, piece by piece. You can whitewash it by saying that some things are "rights", but you're playing semantics with yourself while allowing the genie out of the bottle.

Judges cannot create policy. They can only strike down policy. The creation of policy belongs to our legislative branch only.

 

[Kal'Stang]

i agree with you in the sense people are free to make a marriage contract, between themselves...however marriage as a right which could compel a third person to preform a ceremony would be unconstitutional.

Then you have nothing to worry about as there is no right which compels a third party to perform any ceremony, much less a marriage one.