Progressives have a new minimum wage goal: $20 and up

[ttwtt78640]

You're making hyperbolic strawmen, though I can at least accept your "desire for equity" argument. Though I'd argue society's goal is equal opportunity - not "equality".

That desire for equality may be present in some, but that's not what's being promoted here. In a mixed-economy capitalism is tempered by social restraint. We don't want pure capitalism, as that implies some will perish.

What is often ignored is the relative value of labor. If the MW is increased from $15/hour to $20/hour then should all workers (currently) making more than the MW also get a 33% (base) pay increase?

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

What is often ignored is the relative value of labor. If the MW is increased from $15/hour to $20/hour then should all workers (currently) making more than the MW also get a 33% (base) pay increase?

IMO that would be up to the employee and the employer...

Actually here in NY while the MW was getting bumped up to $15,that was an issue...

 

[Chomsky]

What is your city cost of living ?

I'm not sure how that's quantified at the city level.

My city's one of the higher COL's in the country, but not as ridiculous as Manhattan-LA-San Fran.

Actually I consider my city one of the better deals in the country, in terms of cost to opportunity ratio and cost to quality-of-life ratio.

That being said, official min wage is 15 with actual wages starting around 17 or so (fast food). Manufacturing starts at 19 or so. That's entry-level no experience starting wages.

 

[mrjurrs]

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Is this realistic? 20 bucks an hour minimum wage?

For reference my city's minimum wage is 15 an hour - and employers are still facing a tight labor market - so they're generally offering $16.50-17.00 to start at corporate fast food chains. Perhaps there's a stigma to paying minimum, so they bump it up a bit?

But if 15 an hour is below prevailing-wages in the free-market here, I can only imagine places like SoCal, NYC, Portland, San Fran, being worse.

Despite my unhappiness with inflation, I must admit it is refreshing seeing the lowest wage workers finally getting theirs.

A rising tide lifts all boats works way better when 'the tide is wages and the boats are workers' than when 'the tide is profits and the boats are ownership'.

 

[ttwtt78640]

IMO that would be up to the employee and the employer...

Actually here in NY while the MW was getting bumped up to $15,that was an issue...

Of course, it’s ”an issue” - why should more experienced and/or skilled worker A be expected to accept the same pay as (entry level) worker B?

 

[Simpletruther]

They did here in NY.. They jacked NYC to $15 an hour years before it was raised in the rest of the

What year? NY is a rare case. Who would live there if they couldn't make decent money?

 

[Chomsky]

What is often ignored is the relative value of labor. If the MW is increased from $15/hour to $20/hour then should all workers (currently) making more than the MW also get a 33% (base) pay increase?

I didn't see the bolded to place to speak of, when min wage went to 15 in my city. There may have been some slight increase with the rest of the wage base, but it was very minimal. The pandemic kicked those wages up a notch, though.

The thing to remember with totally free-market wages is monopolistic tendencies arise. That's how we used to have slave-wage childhood labor. Free-markets forces don't work under those conditions, which is why we put labor laws and minimum wages in place.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

I'm not sure how that's quantified at the city level.

My city's one of the higher COL's in the country, but not as ridiculous as Manhattan-LA-San Fran.

Actually I consider my city one of the better deals in the country, in terms of cost-opportunity ratio.

That being said, official min wage is 15 with actual wages starting around 17 or so (fast food). Manufacturing starts at 19 or so. That's entry-level no experience starting wages.

Just wondering... My memory isn't good anymore... You're in the Chicago area... Right?

 

[Chillfolks]

Obviously, the government has right & interest in labor practices.

In a mixed-economy we want to work under free-market principles as much as possible though, while still maintaining individual citizen protection and quality of life.

One way we do this, is through minimum wage. I don't particuliarly see the need for the other stuff you're suggesting. Though I must admit I would like to see publicly held corporations reset the intra-organization wage ratio back to around 50:1, as it was in the sixties. But, I'm loathe to put that into law or regulation.

I don’t understand why you are so against putting into law something that could,actually have an impact on wage discrepancy but support making something in law that has a history of being not that effective in combating wage discrepancies.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

What year? NY is a rare case. Who would live there if they couldn't make decent money?

I'm not sure what you are asking... 9 million people live in NYC... Some people must be doing ok...

 

[Chomsky]

My family owns small businesses.

The prevailing wages in an area are not in the control of small business owners.

Good luck finding someone to answer the phones at a pizza shop in NJ for less than $15/hr. I don't care what size your business is.

FYI - Around 17 is the base free-market entry-level fast-food wage here, and around 19 for unskilled labor & entry-level manufacturing.

 

[gdgyva]

My family owns small businesses.

The prevailing wages in an area are not in the control of small business owners.

Good luck finding someone to answer the phones at a pizza shop in NJ for less than $15/hr. I don't care what size your business is.

Where in Jersey? I bet there are places where they make $ 12 hr for that job....

No where near Atlantic City, Philadelphia, or New York City....but the state is fairly large

Location determines a lot as far as what businesses need to offer in order to attract workers

Here near Atlanta....$ 10-12 is still the prevailing rates for decent workers

As there are a LOT of places still paying MW and getting the workers we dont want

But there is no way in hell the MW can be raised past $ 9-10 as a federal rate

 

[soylentgreen]

You all can say whatever the hell you want....

We....the small business owner are the ones that have to pay these ridiculous amounts

Maybe you need to get out from behind the safety of your government job, and learn how the real world works

$ 20 hr is just plain idiotic.....half of America's small businesses would close their doors

Damn i wonder if any of you actually go out into your community and talk to the people behind the counters

Doesnt seem like it.....

Small business owners are the ones who will also gain from the fact that more people will have an income that they can spend at their small business and other small business.

You do know that the trickle down theory has long been debunked.

 

[Chomsky]

IMO that would be up to the employee and the employer...

Actually here in NY while the MW was getting bumped up to $15,that was an issue...

just wondering? How did it turn out?

In my city when MW went to 15 there seemed to be only slight ripple effect to other wage segments.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

How did it turn out?

In my city when MW went to 15 there seemed to be only slight ripple effect to other wage segments.

They bumped up overall wages... I live about an hour north of NYC... Even fast food places are paying $18 plus...

BTW businesses are still thriving here.. There's thousands of apartments and condos being built all over the place here...

 

[Simpletruther]

I'm not sure what you are asking... 9 million people live in NYC... Some people must be doing ok...

Not many would say if they count pay bills right?

 

[OrphanSlug]

Is this realistic? 20 bucks an hour minimum wage?

Realistic? Yes.

Without any consequence? No, but might not be bad.

Depending on who is doing the math and when they pick as the start date for the math, the results of course will wildly impact the numbers, if minimum wage kept up with inflation at the end of 2022 it would be somewhere in the $21.50 to $24.50 range anyway.

The question comes down to which business / industries can absorb the increase in labor costs more easily than others. An example is typically restaurants, especially mom and pop owners, have a low margin thus higher labor costs end up offset by attempts to increase prices or decrease employee or some other combination of getting back to the low margin. Other business models may not skip a beat at all. However all of that may be offset by the realization that less than 2% of all workers earn just minimum wage (or have some exemption to be under that rate.)

Might not be the economic job loss bombshell our friends on the right typically suggest will happen.

 

[Chomsky]

What year? NY is a rare case. Who would live there if they couldn't make decent money?

Large cities are not "rare cases". At least not in terms of populace.

83% of Americans live in urban areas. 20% live in the 10 largest cities, which is where 15 buck min wage is in place already, and where prevailing wages are eclipsing that.

These high-wage places may not be the majority of Americans, but they are not rare - not at all. And if you count the suburbs of these cities where wages are just as high or even at times higher, this is a lot of your fellow Americans! We see them in this very thread!

 

[gdgyva]

Small business owners are the ones who will also gain from the fact that more people will have an income that they can spend at their small business and other small business.

You do know that the trickle down theory has long been debunked.

Do yourself a favor

Go talk to local business owners

Dont take my word....i dare you

Go to the ice cream parlors, donut shops, hardware stores, barbers, nail salons, restaurants.....

Actually speak to the owners of the mom & pop establishments

Find out what they would do with a $ 15 or $ 20 MW.....

Most will tell you they will have to go out of business.....

There isnt enough margin to cover those wage hikes

And customers arent going to pay $ 25 for a dozen donuts, or $ 5 for a single cone

Maybe that is what progressives and liberals want.....i dunno

Is the unemployment rate skyrocketing part of the grand plan?

Seems like it with these hairbrained ideas

 

[Chomsky]

Where in Jersey? I bet there are places where they make $ 12 hr for that job....

No where near Atlantic City, Philadelphia, or New York City....but the state is fairly large

Location determines a lot as far as what businesses need to offer in order to attract workers

Here near Atlanta....$ 10-12 is still the prevailing rates for decent workers

As there are a LOT of places still paying MW and getting the workers we dont want

But there is no way in hell the MW can be raised past $ 9-10 as a federal rate

Given the feedback on local rural & small-town wages I'm seeing from some on his board, you might be right.

I've seen claims of $7.25, which is unfathomable in the major cities we're discussing above. Probably just as unfathomable as 17-20 is in some rural areas!

 

[soylentgreen]

Do yourself a favor

Go talk to local business owners

Dont take my word....i dare you

Go to the ice cream parlors, donut shops, hardware stores, barbers, nail salons, restaurants.....

Actually speak to the owners of the mom & pop establishments

Find out what they would do with a $ 15 or $ 20 MW.....

Most will tell you they will have to go out of business.....

There isnt enough margin to cover those wage hikes

And customers arent going to pay $ 25 for a dozen donuts, or $ 5 for a single cone

Maybe that is what progressives and liberals want.....i dunno

Is the unemployment rate skyrocketing part of the grand plan?

Seems like it with these hairbrained ideas

You should do yourself a favour and get an idea of economics work.

When people have an income that allows them to buy more than just the the basics of food and rent then small business is where they will go to spend that money.

And if the business cannot afford to employ staff then should it not be a case of the business owner asking why they need more staff if they do not have enough business to pay for it.

Amusing that you want to blame the left while telling us you are prepared to subsidise small business by letting them exploit workers.

 

[Chomsky]

Realistic? Yes.

Without any consequence? No, but might not be bad.

Depending on who is doing the math and when they pick as the start date for the math, the results of course will wildly impact the numbers, if minimum wage kept up with inflation at the end of 2022 it would be somewhere in the $21.50 to $24.50 range anyway.

The question comes down to which business / industries can absorb the increase in labor costs more easily than others. An example is typically restaurants, especially mom and pop owners, have a low margin thus higher labor costs end up offset by attempts to increase prices or decrease employee or some other combination of getting back to the low margin. Other business models may not skip a beat at all. However all of that may be offset by the realization that less than 2% of all workers earn just minimum wage (or have some exemption to be under that rate.)

Might not be the economic job loss bombshell our friends on the right typically suggest will happen.

Interesting numbers, thank you for this.

I think I'm becoming convinced we need a low federal floor, along with states and especially large municipalities legislating to locally prevailing conditions.

 

[Cope]

Wow! What a disparity!

I suppose some may claim your state legislature is behind the ball, while others might claim your state is an example of free-markets working - showing minimum wage laws are superfluous.

My daughters are both working full time at the grocer here (HEB) are making in the $9.50/hr range. I think minimum wage is like $7.25
McDonalds pays more but HEB provides more opportunity for advancement (which they both have turned down since they don't want added responsibility)

 

[Chomsky]

They bumped up overall wages... I live about an hour north of NYC... Even fast food places are paying $18 plus...

BTW businesses are still thriving here.. There's thousands of apartments and condos being built all over the place here...

Interesting.

So like I believe I saw here, there were slight increases it seems, but nothing drastic.

Min wage in the city was raised gradually over 2 or 3 years, FWIW.

 

[Simpletruther]

Large cities are not "rare cases". At least not in terms of populace.

83% of Americans live in urban areas. 20% live in the 10 largest cities, which is where 15 buck min wage is in place already, and where prevailing wages are eclipsing that.

These high-wage places may not be the majority of Americans, but they are not rare - not at all. And if you count the suburbs of these cities where wages are just as high or even at times higher, this is a lot of your fellow Americans! We see them in this very thread!

Manhatten is still not like most major cities. It is a rare case.