• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Please highlight the error i made. Better yet, how about you learn something for once?

Download GDP and inflation data from 1947 until 2013 here. Next, enable the data analysis tool pack in excel (options, manage add-ons, enable data analysis only).

Click on the Data tab in excel, and select regression. Input the GDP data for Y, and inflation for X. Or, you could reverse the dependency relationship, it won't matter. Report the r value of the regression.

What does an r value(s) ranging between 0.94 and 0.96 signify?

You made a false assertion. I showed it to be false. Please try to take it like an adult.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I think you meant to say, "most REPUBLICANS" aren't interested in what you're selling", because most AMERICANS support Democrats. Democratic House candidates received more than a million more votes than Republican House candidates did...but thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans maintained their majority in the House.

In other words, there's more of US than there are of YOU. America's changing, guy, and you can't stop it. Get used to it.

Those old people that lived in the prosperous times of the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's expect the younger generation to play by the rules that worked in the decades I just mentioned. The only problem is that it isn't 1955. It's 2014. :wcm Those people (predomanently Reagan conservatives) are slowly dying off.

People are starting to warm up to reality but it's a slow process. Some people suffer from nostalgia. Who can blame them? Those were really good times.

The economy is different than it was in 2007. It is even more different than it was in 1955. That makes me very sad. :(
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I think you meant to say, "most REPUBLICANS" aren't interested in what you're selling", because most AMERICANS support Democrats. Democratic House candidates received more than a million more votes than Republican House candidates did...but thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans maintained their majority in the House.

In other words, there's more of US than there are of YOU. America's changing, guy, and you can't stop it. Get used to it.

Tsk tsk. So how many unhatched chickens have you counted so far?:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I think buddy was bull sh***ing you then or just mistaken himself.

Tax rates are here: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/content/pdf/individual_rates.pdf

It is a common misconception that once you go to a higher tax rate, all your income is subject to that high rate. However, that is not how it works. If your buddy was earning 130k a year, then:

After deductions, credits his AGI would be taxed as follows (assuming he is single head of household):

0 to 12,750 dollars taxed at 10%
12,750 to 48,600 dollars taxed at 15%
48,600 to 125,450 dollars taxed at 25%
125,450 to 130,000 dollars taxed at 28%

Now lets say he did earn 205k in commissions the next year, then after deductions and credits his AGI would be taxed as follows:

0 to 12,750 dollars taxed at 10%
12,750 to 48,600 dollars taxed at 15%
48,600 to 125,450 dollars taxed at 25%
125,450 to 203,150 dollars taxed at 28%
203,150 to 205,000 dollars taxed at 33%

Thus the only difference would be that 1,850 dollars was subject to the higher tax rate of 33%. Its impossible to get into a higher bracket like that and reduce your income, and that is easily demonstrable just showing how progressive taxation works. Of course in his case his AGI would have certainly been lower than 205k thus none of his income would have even been subject to the higher rate.

What I imagined happened is that he got a big commission check that was much larger than what his typical commissions checks were. Most payroll companies withhold at the highest tax rate for unusually large commissions and bonuses. Thus on that check, the withholdings quite possibly could have been at the highest rates at 39.6%. However, when he filled his taxes his rates would have been the ones I listed above and he would have refunded back the difference.

Over the last decade our household income has grown considerably and we have climbed up tax brackets as a result, this has never resulted in a reduction in our take-home pay.
No, he wasn't bull****ting in the least. Agents are contractors which means every one of us who weren't on a guaranteed salary working straight commission had to pay our portion of the SSI tax, our employer portion of the SSI tax, plus FICA, and income taxes. He made IIRC 160K the year before and ended up with more money after taxes. It's been years since he told me the numbers but his return from the better year was worse than it was when he was in the second bracket.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

the uber wealthy are often part of the conspiracy against the industrious since they use the government to kill off their competition. Estate taxes and high rates of income taxes make a hard working thrifty high salaried individual far less likely to reach the area where he can live off his investments while increasing his wealth
Yep. I'm always trying to come up with my next business idea, but I always have to take additional steps to think out every single regulation, tax, and other liabilities that I cannot just automatically absorb because unlike the big guys I will always be starting from behind due to governmental interference in those forms. The big guys can absorb any new regulations and taxes by very slightly increasing their prices whereas I would have to go up probably a dollar for ever dime they have to raise, they would crush me right off the bat on price point.

It's much easier for big guys to cut a big check to a lobby group, political campaign, the IRS, etc. than to have to retool to compete with the new guy who just thought of a better system. It could cost Wal-Mart billions in training and retention if their competition comes with better service, products, price point, etc.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Take some classes at the community college. They will help you improve your reading skills.

shall we compare educations? I read at a level way above most people. I didn't read his crap because he has posted this same nonsense at least 15 times before. Its a good idea to understand a thread before taking a cheap shot at a poster when you don't know what is going on
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

wrong-competition favor the most competitive. The laws help those who fail in competition
Back to Warren Buffet, if he didn't have the advantage to the start he would be just another guy trying to make a buck, the man is famous for cornering the market by leveraging out the "little guy". There is one territory within the U.S. that is exempted from the minimum wage, it has a lower wage and that is American Samoa(where the Pelosi family just happens to have stock in Dole processing), the Obamas were dead broke before he was a senator(which leads me to believe he got greased to make things happen, once he started accumulation it was a matter of money management). None of these people in office have the slightest clue what they are doing, so they game the system and take short cuts, as well a lot of the major players would rather cheat than compete.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Back to Warren Buffet, if he didn't have the advantage to the start he would be just another guy trying to make a buck, the man is famous for cornering the market by leveraging out the "little guy". There is one territory within the U.S. that is exempted from the minimum wage, it has a lower wage and that is American Samoa(where the Pelosi family just happens to have stock in Dole processing), the Obamas were dead broke before he was a senator(which leads me to believe he got greased to make things happen, once he started accumulation it was a matter of money management). None of these people in office have the slightest clue what they are doing, so they game the system and take short cuts, as well a lot of the major players would rather cheat than compete.

politics was always the refuge for those who were ambitious but without talent to make it in the private sector which is why it is so attractive to democrats
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Those old people that lived in the prosperous times of the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's expect the younger generation to play by the rules that worked in the decades I just mentioned. The only problem is that it isn't 1955. It's 2014. :wcm Those people (predomanently Reagan conservatives) are slowly dying off.

People are starting to warm up to reality but it's a slow process. Some people suffer from nostalgia. Who can blame them? Those were really good times.

The economy is different than it was in 2007. It is even more different than it was in 1955. That makes me very sad. :(
Actually, the reality is that the old rules worked because there was less market intervention. The economy since the 60s has been a series of economic bubbles, the last big burst was set up in the 70s but the bill came due in '06. When an economy is based off of inflated currency with little value to back it up at some point there has to be a reset and we are coming upon that quickly. The "reality" is that D.C. is full of cowards who aren't willing to potentially sacrifice their seats to do the right thing, which would be to get a hold on the printing presses and let the market get closer to it's actual value(this would hurt, but long term it would be better for the country).

One only has to look at what a product(any product) cost in those days and compare to current prices, then adjust to the former dollar value, and look at the spike in inflation since. In the 50s a person could get a sandwich, coke, and a pie for less than 2$, now, in a diner that would be almost 10$.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You made a false assertion.

Nonsense!

I showed it to be false. Please try to take it like an adult.:peace

You showed nothing of the sort. You did show you are out of your depth.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Nonsense!



You showed nothing of the sort. You did show you are out of your depth.

You asserted that a high interest rate to savers is only appropriate in the context of a high growth rate. I cited an example when that was not the case. Pretty simple pitch and catch. Get over it.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

it does not need refuting because it establishes nothing.

you are put in the position of having to claim that there is no such thing as net tax consumers

What it establishes for the past five years is that you have no idea what you are talking about and are unable to identify it in any specific way which is applicable to the American people other than in the most general of terms that fails to stand up to even the most minimal of questions.

That has been established every time for the past five years when you bring this NET TAXPAYER nonsense up.

I made no claim about NET TAXPAYERS. I never brought up the topic. You did Turtle. And since you did the responsibility to show that such a thing exists and can be applied systematically across the population is totally and completely upon you. Not me Turtle - not me - but you.

If you cannot do that - all you have left is some nonsense that exists only on the margins which tells us nothing. For several years now I have been asking you one simple question every time you bring this up:

AM I A NET TAXPAYER AND HOW CAN I DETERMINE THAT?

If you cannot answer something so simple - your entire concept is completely worthless.
 
Last edited:
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The constitution gives Congress the power to tax. What you are proposing is that each person decide what tax they should pay. Sorry, you can't fund a government by passing the hat around.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The constitution gives Congress the power to tax. What you are proposing is that each person decide what tax they should pay. Sorry, you can't fund a government by passing the hat around.

But its a really great idea if your goal is to destroy the government and the USA in the process.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You asserted that a high interest rate to savers is only appropriate in the context of a high growth rate. I cited an example when that was not the case. Pretty simple pitch and catch. Get over it.

Again, you are full of nonsense!

My statement:

Why should savers be rewarded with interest rates that reflect strong economic growth? Interest rates should reflect demand for investment.

To which you replied:

High interest rates aren't necessarily tied to economic growth. The Carter presidency is a case in point. That's when the term "stagflation" came into common use.

When you were presented with the data and an analysis of the situation, you decided to post a wikipedia page as a means of saving face. You didn't even understand the meaning of stagflation (substituting interest rates for inflation is invalid). The effective Fed Funds rate peaked at 19.10% in June of 1981, precisely the time when real GDP growth peaked at 4.9%. The next month, the U.S. enters a recession. By the end of the recession, EFFR was 9.2%.

Citing an induced recession (which is a single outlier of the data) as a refutation fails on all accounts. You are clearly out of your depth, and i have no desire to continue to provide you a life preserver.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No, he wasn't bull****ting in the least. Agents are contractors which means every one of us who weren't on a guaranteed salary working straight commission had to pay our portion of the SSI tax, our employer portion of the SSI tax, plus FICA, and income taxes. He made IIRC 160K the year before and ended up with more money after taxes. It's been years since he told me the numbers but his return from the better year was worse than it was when he was in the second bracket.

FICA (sans the 2.9% medicare rate) taxes were capped likely at $97k. Even if your colleague earned an additional $45k, roughly 1/3 was collected in taxes. So if he made $160k (thought it was $130k) in year 1, he still netted an additional $30k in income year 2 no matter how you slice it.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Again, you are full of nonsense!

My statement:



To which you replied:



When you were presented with the data and an analysis of the situation, you decided to post a wikipedia page as a means of saving face. You didn't even understand the meaning of stagflation (substituting interest rates for inflation is invalid). The effective Fed Funds rate peaked at 19.10% in June of 1981, precisely the time when real GDP growth peaked at 4.9%. The next month, the U.S. enters a recession. By the end of the recession, EFFR was 9.2%.

Citing an induced recession (which is a single outlier of the data) as a refutation fails on all accounts. You are clearly out of your depth, and i have no desire to continue to provide you a life preserver.

:lamo:lamo

Nice smokescreen to cover your retreat. I note you do not dispute that the example I cited contradicts your assertion.

As Edward G. Robinson said to Steve McQueen near the end of The Cincinnati Kid, "You're not ready for me, kid."
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I note you do not dispute that the example I cited contradicts your assertion.

What example did you site, a copy pasted wiki page? Sorry, that doesn't refute my statement that interest rates are tied to economic growth. There are a few outliers, which is to be expected given the unique circumstances of the 1970's and early 1980's. From an empirical standpoint, i am spot on correct.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

What example did you site, a copy pasted wiki page? Sorry, that doesn't refute my statement that interest rates are tied to economic growth. There are a few outliers, which is to be expected given the unique circumstances of the 1970's and early 1980's. From an empirical standpoint, i am spot on correct.

Keep grading your own papers.:lamo. I'm sure you'll get an "A".:lamo. "There are a few outliers . . .":lamo. Yes, reality is like that.:lamo
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Keep grading your own papers. I'm sure you'll get an "A". "There are a few outliers . . ." Yes, reality is like that.

Resorting to childish responses puts your desperateness on fully display.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

What it establishes for the past five years is that you have no idea what you are talking about and are unable to identify it in any specific way which is applicable to the American people other than in the most general of terms that fails to stand up to even the most minimal of questions.

That has been established every time for the past five years when you bring this NET TAXPAYER nonsense up.

I made no claim about NET TAXPAYERS. I never brought up the topic. You did Turtle. And since you did the responsibility to show that such a thing exists and can be applied systematically across the population is totally and completely upon you. Not me Turtle - not me - but you.

If you cannot do that - all you have left is some nonsense that exists only on the margins which tells us nothing. For several years now I have been asking you one simple question every time you bring this up:

AM I A NET TAXPAYER AND HOW CAN I DETERMINE THAT?

If you cannot answer something so simple - your entire concept is completely worthless.



if you are paying less than 80K a year in FIT you are clearly a net tax consumer

between 80-130 gray area

more than 150, clearly net tax payer
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Resorting to childish responses puts your desperateness on fully display.

I use the tools appropriate to my interlocutor. I'm not the one who looks silly. I'm the one who adduced an example that collapsed your argument. You're the one pouting.:peace
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

if you are paying less than 80K a year in FIT you are clearly a net tax consumer

between 80-130 gray area

more than 150, clearly net tax payer
How bizarre. Let's hope these figures were typos on your part.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

tl dr-probably the same mindless nonsense you have spammed this forum with dozens of times before. the fact is most americans use more than they pay for because people like me are paying hundreds of thousands more than we use

What does "tl dr" mean?
 
Back
Top Bottom