Pride and racism

[ecofarm]

Why would taking pride in one's race while the majority be bigoted?

Why would taking pride in one's race while being in the minority be empowering?

I do not see the difference.

The sum total of one's accomplishments are to be celebrated. If someone accomplishes something despite obstacles, that's to be noted. When a minority succeeds, the obstacles must be recognized and the person should be proud of having overcome them. We celebrate not only the individual's success but also society's progress. White people, as a group, experience no such social obstacles, leaving race empty and thereby nothing to be celebrated or proud of.

 

[Rickeroo]

Oh ok, my bad.

Any statement that measures a trait based on race is racist. If you say blacks are good athletes that's racist. If you say whites are more likely to be serial killers, thats racist.

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I would disagree, I think the term would be 'racial' rather than racist. If one makes the observation that Kenyans and Ethiopians win more than their share of marathons, this is a racial observation. Observing that blacks commit 8 times the homicide rate of whites is a racial observation.

Let's assume that there is something genetic about Ethiopians that make them better at marathons - greater lung capacity, something with the circulatory system, etc. In that light, there must also be something genetically inferior about whites that causes them to lose marathons. Reduced circulatory capacity, what have you. These would still be racial facts and not racist facts - the factor here is that marathon winning isn't a hot button social issue. Note that either the genetics of race and marathon winning are there or not, regardless of societal rules.

The game changes radically when we might assume that there is something genetic about blacks that makes them more homicidal. This is a negative trait, while winning marathons is a positive one.

Therefore, I think the dividing line between racial and racist depends on whether or not we are talking about undesirable traits.

 

[Objective Voice]

All are racist because they see themselves in the context of their skin color or cultural identity. But that's far different from the practice of racism where one thinks they are better than another merely by virtue of their claimed racial superiority. Hell, I'm a racist right now!

I'm a proud man who happens to be Black. I talk-up my Black heritage to my Black children every chance I get making sure they are acutely aware of the struggles our people have come through and are still enduring to a degree. But that doesn't mean I go around proclaiming that I'm any better than the next guy just because I'm Black and he's of a different racial/cultural background than I.

I think one can be a racist - proud of their heritage and/or cultural upbringing - without being a total a-hole about it or threatening or demeaning towards others. If you're Italian, be a proud Italian (for example). Just don't be a jerk about it.

 

[Empirica]

White Pride! Brown Pride! Black Pride! We hear these things from time to time from people who are proud of their heritage. While it is often applauded for some races it is condemned for others. If you saw a person of the stated race wearing a hat and shirt with the following (insert race) power which of these would you assume to be racist people?

Multiple choice

At present; 80% of the pollees have selected "None of them!".

But I'm fairly confident that 50% of those would likely label "White Pride!" as racist in an actual situation.

 

[Kreton]

The sum total of one's accomplishments are to be celebrated. If someone accomplishes something despite obstacles, that's to be noted. When a minority succeeds, the obstacles must be recognized and the person should be proud of having overcome them. We celebrate not only the individual's success but also society's progress. White people, as a group, experience no such social obstacles, leaving race empty and thereby nothing to be celebrated or proud of.

I disagree completely. There are obstacles faced by everyone. Race may play a role at some points but there are obstacles for everyone. When in poverty, poor white people face just as many problems as poor minorities. In fact a few more in many cases. The white privileged effect doesn't really kick in till middle class and up. By your logic a poor white person who climbs out of poverty has less to be proud of than a rich black kid who manages to not become poor.

 

[Kreton]

At present; 80% of the pollees have selected "None of them".

But I'm fairly confident that 50% of those would likely label "White Pride!" as racist in an actual situation.

Me too. I know a lot of people consider either "white pride" or "minority pride" racist - I was curious how many would actually admit it.

 

[ecofarm]

I disagree completely.

You support White Pride.

White people, as a group, suffer no social injustice. That's ultimately what you're trying to ignore. The primal racist ignore - social injustice against minorities. It exists. And it makes white pride always racist.

Minority pride is based on overcoming social injustice. What is white pride based on?

 

[trouble13]

I would disagree, I think the term would be 'racial' rather than racist. If one makes the observation that Kenyans and Ethiopians win more than their share of marathons, this is a racial observation. Observing that blacks commit 8 times the homicide rate of whites is a racial observation.

Let's assume that there is something genetic about Ethiopians that make them better at marathons - greater lung capacity, something with the circulatory system, etc. In that light, there must also be something genetically inferior about whites that causes them to lose marathons. Reduced circulatory capacity, what have you. These would still be racial facts and not racist facts - the factor here is that marathon winning isn't a hot button social issue. Note that either the genetics of race and marathon winning are there or not, regardless of societal rules.

The game changes radically when we might assume that there is something genetic about blacks that makes them more homicidal. This is a negative trait, while winning marathons is a positive one.

Therefore, I think the dividing line between racial and racist depends on whether or not we are talking about undesirable traits.

Interesting point. I think you might of just schooled me and I agree with your distinction. I gotta chew on it and digest.

Thanks for sharing

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[Ouroboros]

Being proud of your heritage is fine. That is not racism.

Racism is a compositional error fallacy involving people as the class and a genetic trait as the property... That's what racism is. It has nothing to do with how nice or mean someone is towards another race... It is a logical fallacy as aforementioned...

But in some quarters there are also aspects of heritage that also come under fire.

For some ideologues, one cannot be proud of a heritage rooted in the American South, because that heritage is considered inherently racist.

 

[Ouroboros]

There was a time when pride was considered a sin and humility was admired. Those who espouse pride generally have little to be proud of perhaps least of all the circumstances of one's birth.

"The pride of the peacock is the glory of God."-- William Blake.

(How serious he was in this sentiment is up for grabs.)

 

[Ouroboros]

Given the current factual reality state of the world, pride in being a member of the majority power is inherently bigoted. Pride in being a member of a minority is empowering.

One's bigoted. One's empowering. See the difference?

Bigotry inheres in actions, not beliefs.

 

[ecofarm]

Bigotry inheres in actions, not beliefs.

Bigoted beliefs exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course it is. Pride in the majority power group, in an imperfect world, is inherently bigoted. How can you not see that? What purpose does the pride serve? Whites don't need social empowerment nor would it be socially beneficial. An increase in white power, given existing disproportion, be a disaster of social injustice. Is that something to strive for?

Pride and empowerment are not the same thing.

 

[ecofarm]

Pride and empowerment are not the same thing.

When it comes to minority pride, they are. Minority pride is pride in overcoming injustice and a celebration of society's progress. It's not bigoted.

What's white pride based on? Not a celebration of progress. Not empowerment. Bigotry.

 

[Objective Voice]

All are racist because they see themselves in the context of their skin color or cultural identity. But that's far different from the practice of racism where one thinks they are better than another merely by virtue of their claimed racial superiority. Hell, I'm a racist right now!

EDIT: I'm a proud man who happens to be Black. I talk-up my Black heritage to my Black children every chance I get making sure they are acutely aware of the struggles our people have come through and are still enduring to a degree but also making sure they are aware of our successes as well. But that doesn't mean I go around proclaiming that I'm any better than the next guy just because I'm Black and he's of a different racial/cultural background than I.

I think one can be a racist - proud of their heritage and/or cultural upbringing - without being a total a-hole about it or threatening or demeaning towards others. If you're Italian, be a proud Italian (for example). Just don't be a jerk about it.

Fixed...

 

[Ouroboros]

You're proud of being white?

No race should be denied the indulgence of pride.

The philosophy that only the ones on top cannot be allowed that indulgence leads to more racial tension, not less.

 

[ecofarm]

No race should be denied the indulgence of pride.

No one is denying your indulgence in white pride. We're asking what it's based on.

 

[Kreton]

You support White Pride.

True enough. If someone takes pride in their race - any race - it doesn't bother me at all. It seems dumb to applaud one and condemn another for the same action.

White people, as a group, suffer no social injustice. That's ultimately what you're trying to ignore. The primal racist ignore - social injustice against minorities. It exists. And it makes white pride always racist.

I don't ignore anything. Social injustices exist but they are not confined to minorities. You ignore that not all white people have it easy. There are white people who are struggling just as much as minorities. That doesn't mean that minorities don't struggle - it just means that white people face challenges too that minorities don't face.

Minority pride is based on overcoming social injustice. What is white pride based on?

BS - A person who is born and raised entirely in Mexico can have brown pride. What social injustice did they over come? What about a rich black kid in the US? Green matters more than white, black or brown. Race can present obstacles in some scenarios but it becoming less common. There are even social programs to help minorities that white people in poverty don't qualify for because of their race. The poor whites and the middle class/rich whites aren't the same whites with the same opportunities.

 

[ecofarm]

True enough.

So you openly support White Pride and you deny that minority pride is based on overcoming injustice. You seek a false equivalence in which minority pride is supremacist so as to excuse your supremacism.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Empirica]

I don't take any more pride in being white than I do in being an American. I had nothing to do with either - my circumstances just lumped me in those particular categories.

I'll bet you didn't even realize that you just repeated the Politically Correct textbook response, nearly verbatim, for this particular situation.

Yet you would still proclaim in total confidence and with a straight face that those words were entirely yours and not progressive indoctrination.

You people have no idea just how obvious you are to everyone but yourselves...

 

[Ouroboros]

Bigoted beliefs exist.

Doesn't matter if one does nothing about them.

 

[ecofarm]

Doesn't matter if one does nothing about them.

Nihilism is stupid.

 

[Ouroboros]

When it comes to minority pride, they are. Minority pride is pride in overcoming injustice and a celebration of society's progress. It's not bigoted.

What's white pride based on? Not a celebration of progress. Not empowerment. Bigotry.

White pride is based in the same things minority pride is: accomplishments deemed to be good, while the accomplishments of which one is not proud get shuffled off to the side.

Case in point: the failure of most "black pride" advocates to admit how many Black African slaves were sold by other Black Africans. This would not be a source of pride, and thus it is roundly ignored.

 

[Ouroboros]

No one is denying your indulgence in white pride. We're asking what it's based on.

It's all indulgence. Your idea that minority pride is empowering is also indulgent.

 

[Ouroboros]

Nihilism is stupid.

Nihilism doesn't apply here in the least. Are you sure you know what the word means?