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Possible solution?

I'm of two minds about abortion. Always have been. On one side, the personal side, I do not like abortions. Glad as hell that my wife never had one and if she got pregnant again I would hope to hell that she didn't have one even knowing that she does not want another child. On the other side, the political side, I am pro-choice because I feel that women have a right to privacy in all things medical. I also do not believe in forcing people to do things to their bodies that they do not want to do. That is just as bad as slavery or rape in my book.

So after thinking about it for a long while I think I may have come up with a solution. One that doesn't seem to be talked about all that much, if at all. If I were President, or someone that could get a bill/act passed through congress/senate this is what I would propose be done.

First, keep abortion legal. But I would also encourage and fund technology that would advance the ability to take an embryo just conceived and raise it in a vat until maturity and then put the child up for adoption. Once such technology is achieved then I would make abortion illegal in the sense of killing the ZEF, but make it legal to transfer that ZEF into a vat. Once transferred that woman no longer has any responsibility what so ever for that child. (except of course where normal taxation occurs) It would essentially be "aborted" for that woman, yet it would also still save that child.

I suggest the above because I know that abortion as we know it will never end and will never be fully made illegal. Not in our society which has such a strong affinity for Rights. And even if it were to somehow be made illegal it would not stop abortion. This to me is the best solution that will ever be made when it comes to abortion.

Thoughts?

Another solution, that doesn't rely on speculative technology being invented, is to just allow women the freedom to control their own bodies and not let our personal judgments as men, as people of faith or as baby-lovers to skew our reasoning and compassion for women. Like them or not, abortion is birth control. It prevents the woman having to give live birth to an unwanted fetus. Furthermore, unless your "vat" is invented in a time where there aren't already too many unwanted orphans, the result will be MORE, not less, human suffering.

I don't have a womb but, on behalf of those who do, I resent the constant treatment of their bodies as the property of the state and no matter how many baby vats are available and no matter what the cost for women to use them, I would never be in favor of outlawing abortion. Abortion does more than remove a fetus from a woman's body, it allows a woman to do her part in mitigating the vast numbers of unwanted children. The vat idea seems to rely on some dogma about what abortion is, the motivations of women who have them and the existing state of adoption.
 
Get your tubes tied and have all the sex you want. Those "oopsies" lead to the death of a human being.

That doesn't help women (or vasectomies for men, altho I see you dont include them in the 'responsible' column) who want to have children when they are married or as a couple, when they are ready.
 
Another solution, that doesn't rely on speculative technology being invented, is to just allow women the freedom to control their own bodies and not let our personal judgments as men, as people of faith or as baby-lovers to skew our reasoning and compassion for women. Like them or not, abortion is birth control. It prevents the woman having to give live birth to an unwanted fetus. Furthermore, unless your "vat" is invented in a time where there aren't already too many unwanted orphans, the result will be MORE, not less, human suffering.

I don't have a womb but, on behalf of those who do, I resent the constant treatment of their bodies as the property of the state and no matter how many baby vats are available and no matter what the cost for women to use them, I would never be in favor of outlawing abortion. Abortion does more than remove a fetus from a woman's body, it allows a woman to do her part in mitigating the vast numbers of unwanted children. The vat idea seems to rely on some dogma about what abortion is, the motivations of women who have them and the existing state of adoption.

Really well written
 
And do you think the reasons why people have unmarried sex have changed one iota since you were sexually active (before marriage)?

And if it didnt stop you, why would it stop anyone else?

I offered it as an option and people went their usual spastic selves.

Yes there are some newer reasons for abstinence .... more diseases that can kill or maim you.
 
I grew up in the 70s.... what do you think?

I offered abstinence as an option for preventing pregnancy and therefore the need for abortion.

I grew up 60s and 70s also.

Looks like difference between you and I is that you do not practice ( abstence ) what you preach ,

But I practiced abstence before marriage.

However , I was not giving up my marriage bed for fear of a birth control failure ...yet it seems you want to preach that all couples including married couples do that.
 
Yes there are some newer reasons for abstinence .... more diseases that can kill or maim you.

Nah, we had STDs back then and the same preventatives. Condoms arent new.
 
I grew up 60s and 70s also.

Looks like difference between you and I is that you do not practice ( abstence ) what you preach ,

But I practiced abstence before marriage.

However , I was not giving up my marriage bed for fear of a birth control failure ...yet it seems you want to preach that all couples including married couples do that.

Not at all. Let me repeat myself; I offered abstinence as an option to avoiding pregnancy and abortion.

I do that now as a born-again Christian who has seen the light.
 
Nah, we had STDs back then and the same preventatives. Condoms arent new.

Condoms fail. [more ways than one] We didn't worry about Hep C or AIDS or HPV or SARS or Ebola or any of the other newly discovered sexually transmitted diseases.

You just want to argue.
 
Condoms fail. [more ways than one] We didn't worry about Hep C or AIDS or HPV or SARS or Ebola or any of the other newly discovered sexually transmitted diseases.

You just want to argue.

Of course they do. THey did then, they do now.

And nobody worries about that stuff now anymore than they did before...if they use a condom, they feel safe.

It's not about arguing for the sake of arguing. The human instincts for sex havent changed over the millenia. People are going to have it, period.

That's why the whole 'irresponsibilty' angle is useless. No one is going to change that. It happens, both men and women have sex irresponsibly (but only women get blamed for it in most cases)
 
Such as not having sex until the child is wanted/planned? You know...being responsible for ones actions.

That’s a extremely unrealistic and an unattainable solution. That is totally outside the physical, mental, and even spiritual nature for humankind. Sexual relationships are as much a part of human existence as breathing air.
 
Sure sex is normal and natural, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our kids to be responsible when it comes to sex. Even if no unwanted pregnancy occurs, there are plenty of STDs out there that can impact their health for the rest of their lives.

It's best to strike a happy medium. Teach them how to stay safe, but also teach them that with sex comes adulthood and a measure of responsibility. Given that having multiple partners increases the risk of disease, it's not a bad idea to promote the idea of "committed" sex.

Could you please show where I ever said we shouldn't teach those things?

BTW, one can have an exclusive relationship without marriage.
 
Get your tubes tied and have all the sex you want. Those "oopsies" lead to the death of a human being.

Zefs aren't human beings. I tried to get my tubes tied but was denied.

You didn't answer my question, which was: Why should someone abstain just because they don't want kids or don't want them at the moment, when they have no problem with aborting should an oopsie occur?
 
That’s a extremely unrealistic and an unattainable solution. That is totally outside the physical, mental, and even spiritual nature for humankind. Sexual relationships are as much a part of human existence as breathing air.

Not to mention that even the law sometimes takes into consideration whether or not a marriage has been consummated in order to validate it. LOL
 
Could you please show where I ever said we shouldn't teach those things?

I didn't say you said those things, but you did say, "Why should someone abstain just because they don't want kids or don't want them at the moment...", and I was explaining it's a good idea to teach children to abstain if they're not ready for the consequences that can come with not abstaining.

BTW, one can have an exclusive relationship without marriage.

Which is why I used the word, "committed," and not "married." Personally, I think marriage is an antiquated institution that benefits men more than it does women, and I don't think it's necessary for parents to be able to raise children to become adults that contribute to society.
 
I had lots of sex before marriage. Do you know what Born Again means?

As per your signature...I'm human.

You are human. But I don't see a couple having sex before marriage as a "mistake".
 
I'm of two minds about abortion. Always have been. On one side, the personal side, I do not like abortions. Glad as hell that my wife never had one and if she got pregnant again I would hope to hell that she didn't have one even knowing that she does not want another child. On the other side, the political side, I am pro-choice because I feel that women have a right to privacy in all things medical. I also do not believe in forcing people to do things to their bodies that they do not want to do. That is just as bad as slavery or rape in my book.

So after thinking about it for a long while I think I may have come up with a solution. One that doesn't seem to be talked about all that much, if at all. If I were President, or someone that could get a bill/act passed through congress/senate this is what I would propose be done.

First, keep abortion legal. But I would also encourage and fund technology that would advance the ability to take an embryo just conceived and raise it in a vat until maturity and then put the child up for adoption. Once such technology is achieved then I would make abortion illegal in the sense of killing the ZEF, but make it legal to transfer that ZEF into a vat. Once transferred that woman no longer has any responsibility what so ever for that child. (except of course where normal taxation occurs) It would essentially be "aborted" for that woman, yet it would also still save that child.

I suggest the above because I know that abortion as we know it will never end and will never be fully made illegal. Not in our society which has such a strong affinity for Rights. And even if it were to somehow be made illegal it would not stop abortion. This to me is the best solution that will ever be made when it comes to abortion.

Thoughts?

I have seem similar proposals before, and basically, there is one big problem.

There is no way it is biologically possible to do this without major, serious surgery that is dramatically more dangerous than an abortion. I doubt there is any way to do it without basically opening up the uterus even bigger than a C-section does. It would probably be a very long surgery as well, increasing risks to the woman even more, and the scarring of the uterus could have serious consequences for her future fertility and ability to support a pregnancy later on if she wishes to.

The reason this would inevitably be the case is because an embryo cannot survive -- not even for a second -- without connection to a life source. So, in essence, the surgeons would need to get inside her uterus and transfer the umbilical life support systems one pain-staking piece at a time. There is no way around this. No matter how good technology gets, the limits of biology don't change. And the biological limits of an embryo are that it cannot exist without a consistent and direct connection to a life source at all times.

It would be arduous, dangerous, insanely expensive, and potentially disfguring.

And if it existed, I am all in favor of it being a choice.

But a procedure with so many risks and such high costs could never be an ethical mandated replacement for something like abortion, which is so exceptionally safe and quick, and financially within the reach of far more women. To force a woman into a procedure she probably couldn't afford even with an entire year of her wages (remember, financial problems are a big reason for abortion) and that puts her in such danger and could possibly even cost her future pregnancies is arguably just as bad as forcing her through the pregnancy.

The severity of the cost just creates too much of an ethical problem for this to replace abortion by force of law. And of course, this is to say nothing about where we would find parents for these millions of homeless children, when we don't have enough adopters as it is.
 
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I do not believe in adoption (except under extraordinary circumstance ie. children removed from the home because of abuse). I don't think it's a good option. I'm adopted and I wouldn't do that to a child. However, what others do is not my business, meaning I would not make it illegal.

Well that's fine, I guess. Me personally, I think if I ever decide to have a child, I think I'm just gonna adopt one. I'd just rather give a adopted child a nice home, instead of being stuck in the ****ty foster care system. But that's thinking years in advance; I've got plenty of time to decide.
 
Such as not having sex until the child is wanted/planned? You know...being responsible for ones actions.

So IYO, people should only have sex for the purposes of procreation?
 
Do you really think that is a right? Why does it only apply to a woman's vagina and not other things to would seem obvious like medical marijuana or non-FDA approved drugs for terminal patients?

You are saying only woman and abortion is a medical privacy and nothing else is?

And show some ****ing class. It is not her vagina but about an embryo in her womb.
 
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