Pope endorses civil union laws for same-sex couples

[Napoleon]

However the Catholic Church has a history of violence, coercion, hate, torture, repression, etc. And that hate and repression and coercion continue today. Hard to preach against it today, then isnt it?

And you bring up a very good point, one that I brought up when the issue was still being debated and gay marriage was still mostly illegal. It was the various religious faiths, including the Catholics, that spoke out so vehemently against it. Paid $$ into campaigns to convince voters against it.

When as you wrote...and I also at the time...all they had to do was recognize that some sacrament in God's Eyes should have nothing to do with the legal and social benefits accorded by the govt. They could all get 'married' in their various churches. Govt sanction by no means affects the sanctity of that. And yet...they fought...out of hate and intolerance.

I think we should be careful not to project the misdeeds of individuals onto the entire Catholic faith especially when they are in flagrant violation of the teachings of that faith. It’s true that there are people who identify as Catholic and act out of an immature understanding of their faith or otherwise adopt heretical points of view. There are people even here that I would not be surprised to find praying to Savonarola. But they aren’t representative of the religion anymore than Pat Robertson is representative of all of Protestantism.

 

[snakestretcher]

There is no 'god' (humans invented gods anyway), so what's all the brouhaha about?

 

[Carleen]

Excommunication means that a person is no longer permitted to participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist aka communion. You can’t be denied communion by the clergy without being formally declared as excommunicated by the Bishop.

I gave up being a catholic when after i had my first child I confessed that I was using birth control. I was not given absolution and I decided the church was not going to control my body or how many children I should have. That is when I gave up religion. Amen

 

[Lursa]

I think we should be careful not to project the misdeeds of individuals onto the entire Catholic faith especially when they are in flagrant violation of the teachings of that faith. It’s true that there are people who identify as Catholic and act out of an immature understanding of their faith or otherwise adopt heretical points of view. There are people even here that I would not be surprised to find praying to Savonarola. But they aren’t representative of the religion anymore than Pat Robertson is representative of all of Protestantism.

I agree. I have nothing against Catholics except for the ones that cultishly follow it and wish to impose its historical horrors on us today.

And that view is imposed on us here in the forum frequently by several posters on many issues. I do realize that it's not the prevalent belief of most Catholics and often point out to them the damage they do to their own religion and to people accepting Christianity at all.

But the frequency and definitiveness and hate of those here that do are sometimes just so disturbing it should not be accepted in any form.

 

[Napoleon]

Are you disputing that what I wrote is God's Word? What do you think it is?

And of course all men are fallible...even God said so

I dont give a shit about what the RCC thinks about anything...I find it a horrific, violent, greedy, historically and currently damaging cult. It sits on billions in assets, its upper hierarchy live in luxury...while millions of its followers starve. And it's manipulated to the extreme sexual behavior in order to maximize producing more hands to put more $$ in its collection plates. It's done humanity a horrible disservice. Other religions have done much the same, but not to the same pure, focused level.

And I am a practicing United Methodist.

Terrible things have been done in the name of the Catholic Church by people who profess to be Catholic. That is not an indictment on the religion which is defined by its teachings. The sect your religion is rooted in has the same history or do you think the Methodist church gets a pass from your judgement because it splintered from the Church of England after the mass murder and persecution were done? Your church only exists ultimately because some fat bastard couldn’t keep his hands off women and needed a method of adultery that didn’t involve continuing to murder his lovers. So heck yeah, men are fallible.

 

[Lursa]

I gave up being a catholic when after i had my first child I confessed that I was using birth control. I was not given absolution and I decided the church was not going to control my body or how many children I should have. That is when I gave up religion. Amen

It is comments like yours that make me even more against the fundie religious extremists. They drive people like you away from God, period. And that is IMO, sad.

But if course I respect your decision.

 

[Lursa]

Terrible things have been done in the name of the Catholic Church by people who profess to be Catholic. That is not an indictment on the religion which is defined by its teachings. The sect your religion is rooted in has the same history or do you think the Methodist church gets a pass because it splintered from the Church of England after the murder and persecution were done? Your church only exists ultimately because some fat bastard couldn’t keep his hands off women and needed a method of adultery that didn’t involve continuing to murder his lovers.

But see? I've been in that church since birth and never learned that. And I dont care...but as you can see, that sin never affected my understanding of God's Word. My church left it far behind. It never influenced me (or anyone I know!) And Methodists dont endeavor to maintain such standards or beliefs....we moved beyond it.

OTOH, we all know the crimes and horrors of the Catholic church and it stares us in the face today. It's history of repression and control is still very much a part of the religion. It still uses control and ritual and 'rules' and threats to convey God's teachings. For the most part, my religion does no such thing. It has stepped away from the threats to instead shining the light on the teachings.

 

[nota bene]

My posting of God's Word is not oversimplified. The Bible was written by fallible men of the time. THey made many misinterpretations, some intentional, some not. Some were even with the best of intentions I'm sure. The Catholic Church is the prime example of a lot of sins just being made up. Abortion is not in the Bible anywhere. Neither is allowing a husband to rape his wife.

Anything that does not break God's Word is not a sin or immoral. It's made up...intentionally or accidentally. There's no doubt that organized religion is all about using God's Word to teach and control populations. Of course it was written and used that way.

And I dont remember Jesus, Peter, and the rock.

Matthew 16:18 (NIV): And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[Napoleon]

But see? I've been in that church since birth and never learned that. And I dont care...but as you can see, that sin never affected my understanding of God's Word. My church left it far behind. It never influenced me (or anyone I know!) And Methodists dont endeavor to maintain such standards or beliefs....we moved beyond it.

OTOH, we all know the crimes and horrors of the Catholic church and it stares us in the face today. It's history of repression and control is still very much a part of the religion. It still uses control and ritual and 'rules' and threats to convey God's teachings. For the most part, my religion does no such thing. It has stepped away from the threats to instead shining the light on the teachings.

If you don’t know the origin and history of your own religion and you’re casting stones at Catholics then that is because you have a plank in your eye and you don’t want to know. Ponder that. Methodists have many of the same rituals and rules and “threats” of excommunication as the Catholic Church. It is, after all, derivative of it.

 

[nota bene]

Well, on the first point, papal supremacy isn’t something that really happened until the 5th or 6th century and it’s something that has been the subject of ecumenical debate even within the Church all the way through the 20th century.

Where did I say anything about papal supremacy?

 

[Napoleon]

Where did I say anything about papal supremacy?

Papal supremacy is the only thing the Catholic Church uses that verse to argue, i.e. the Bishop of Rome is successor to Peter who was the rock and therefore the Bishop of Rome is the Supreme Pontiff. But that interpretation has never been universally agreed upon even within the Church. In fact it was the cause of the Great Schism and even a subject of debate in Vatican II.

 

[Lursa]

If you don’t know the origin and history of your own religion and you’re casting stones at Catholics then that is because you have a plank in your eye and you don’t want to know. Ponder that. Methodists have many of the same rituals and rules and “threats” of excommunication as the Catholic Church. It is, after all, derivative of it.

Could be true...and yet my post is completely true. The focus of my church has left its past behind and focuses on positive teachings. In such a case...does that 'past' matter? Or does The Word?

The Catholic church does not...and somehow, I am very aware of it's horrific history. And it still behaves has I described.

 

[TobyOne]

Its just benedicts opinion. He may as well be opining on who will win the World Series. It has about as much impact on church law.

 

[Napoleon]

Could be true...and yet my post is completely true. The focus of my church has left its past behind and focuses on positive teachings. In such a case...does that 'past' matter? Or does The Word?

The Catholic church does not...and somehow, I am very aware of it's horrific history. And it still behaves has I described.

How familiar are you really with the teachings of the Catholic Church? There are no crusades. There are no inquisitions. There is a vast body of positive theology and teachings. So what modern problem do you have with the Catholic Church that isn’t shared by the Methodist church? You’re aware of the history of the Catholic Church because it has one and it’s played a central role in the development of western civilization. The Methodist church is barely older than the United States - having splintered from the Church of England in the mid-1700s.

 

[Lursa]

Matthew 16:18 (NIV): And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Kinda meaningless to me, except I did see what Napoleon wrote about it.

I have absolutely no respect for the invention of a Pope to pretend to be God's Messenger on earth. None, I dont recognize any authority or difference in sacredness. He was invented in order for the Catholic leadership to be able to "voice" what God wanted directly so that followers would question God's demands and rules less. It was all about more control over the people.

All men are brothers and all equal in God's Eyes.

 

[Lursa]

How familiar are you really with the teachings of the Catholic Church? There are no crusades. There are no inquisitions. There is a vast body of positive theology and teachings. So what modern problem do you have with the Catholic Church that isn’t shared by the Methodist church?

I already have in several posts but not really interested in this conversation. Sorry.

 

[nota bene]

Kinda meaningless to me, except I did see what Napoleon wrote about it.

I have absolutely no respect for the invention of a Pope to pretend to be God's Messenger on earth. None, I dont recognize any authority or difference in sacredness. He was invented in order for the Catholic leadership to be able to "voice" what God wanted directly so that followers would question God's demands and rules less. It was all about more control over the people.

All men are brothers and all equal in God's Eyes.

I'm not really interested in your bigoted view of Catholics or in arguing about the papacy. You said you were unfamiliar with what I was talking about, and I provided you with the quote from Matthew...which I notice that you've avoided commenting on. Is this because you don't know or because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas or what?

 

[Lursa]

I'm not really interested in your bigoted view of Catholics or in arguing about the papacy. You said you were unfamiliar with what I was talking about, and I provided you with the quote from Matthew...which I notice that you've avoided commenting on. Is this because you don't know or because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas or what?

Well you inserted Jesus/Peter/rock into a post like I was supposed to know what you meant.

I'm not really interested in that either. And I still dont understand the quote from Matthew. So sue me? If it related to a fake means to invent a pope like Napoleon implied, then I certainly did comment on it.

And my views on the RCC come from a lifetime of reading (what have you read about how the church behaved during WW2?), going to Catholic mass with friends, and the written and spoken statements of Catholics.

Several of the ones that post here are hateful horrible people. Anyone that believes that God thinks it's ok for a husband to rape his wife is a sick, disgusting wholly misguided person. And it's the RCC that misguided such people. Is that true, yes or no?

 

[TobyOne]

Lol. Not so much ...

Well you inserted Jesus/Peter/rock into a post like I was supposed to know what you meant.

I'm not really interested in that either. And I still dont understand the quote from Matthew. So sue me? If it related to a fake means to invent a pope like Napoleon implied, then I certainly did comment on it.

And my views on the RCC come from a lifetime of reading (what have you read about how the church behaved during WW2?), going to Catholic mass with friends, and the written and spoken statements of Catholics.

Several of the ones that post here are hateful horrible people. Anyone that believes that God thinks it's ok for a husband to rape his wife is a sick, disgusting wholly misguided person. And it's the RCC that misguided such people. Is that true, yes or no?

 

[Lursa]

Lol. Not so much ...

Dont understand your response.

Do you want me to or was it directed at someone else?

 

[nota bene]

Well you inserted Jesus/Peter/rock into a post like I was supposed to know what you meant.

I'm not really interested in that either. And I still dont understand the quote from Matthew. So sue me? If it related to a fake means to invent a pope like Napoleon implied, then I certainly did comment on it.

And my views on the RCC come from a lifetime of reading (what have you read about how the church behaved during WW2?), going to Catholic mass with friends, and the written and spoken statements of Catholics.

Several of the ones that post here are hateful horrible people. Anyone that believes that God thinks it's ok for a husband to rape his wife is a sick, disgusting wholly misguided person. And it's the RCC that misguided such people. Is that true, yes or no?

As I said, I'm not interested in having this discussion. But I am very, very sorry that you are unfamiliar with the quote from Matthew.

 

[jmotivator]

I guess because of this plus the Pope's recent condemnation of capitalism's handling during the epidemic means Catholic Republicans should be denied communion right? I mean that's how they treat Democratic politicians who are Catholic when they don't hold a repubilcan policy dear enough.

Pope endorses civil union laws for same-sex couples | CNN

Pope Francis has declared support for civil unions for same-sex couples for the first time, according to the Catholic News Agency.

www.cnn.com

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Pope Francis has declared support for civil unions for same-sex couples for the first time, according to the Catholic News Agency. The Pope made the historic remarks in a new documentary film, "Francesco," which was released in Rome on Wednesday.​

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"Homosexual people have a right to be in a family. They're children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it," the Pope said in the film, the Catholic News Agency reported.​

This isn't actually earth shattering. This is pretty standard Catholic doctrine. Had the Pope came out saying that the Church would perform same-sex marriages then that would be different, but he doesn't.

 

[Metric Mouse]

There is no 'god' (humans invented gods anyway), so what's all the brouhaha about?

Taxes. More government controlling people by granting some persons tax benefits and not granting them to others.

 

[Napoleon]

And my views on the RCC come from a lifetime of reading (what have you read about how the church behaved during WW2?), going to Catholic mass with friends, and the written and spoken statements of Catholics.

How the Church behaved during WW2? I know that it spoke out against the Nazis and persistently lobbied to end the deportation and murder of Jews. It maintained official neutrality to maintain its ability to save nearly one million Jews by hiding them in a network of convents, monasteries, and churches all over Europe including the Vatican itself. And many, many clergy paid the ultimate price for that. 80% of the clergy in Poland for example was wiped out and thousands of institutions destroyed by the Nazis. Priests, bishops, nuns, and friars were dragged into the street and shot en masse all over Europe. Many perished in concentration camps. Dachau for example was a concentration camp specifically for Catholics and Catholic clergy. So what’s your beef?

Several of the ones that post here are hateful horrible people. Anyone that believes that God thinks it's ok for a husband to rape his wife is a sick, disgusting wholly misguided person. And it's the RCC that misguided such people. Is that true, yes or no?

Actually, no. The RCC recognizes and does not condone marital rape.

 

[Lursa]

How the Church behaved during WW2? I know that it spoke out against the Nazis and persistently lobbied to end the deportation and murder of Jews. It maintained official neutrality to maintain its ability to save nearly one million Jews by hiding them in a network of convents, monasteries, and churches all over Europe including the Vatican itself. And many, many clergy paid the ultimate price for that. 80% of the clergy in Poland for example was wiped out and thousands of institutions destroyed by the Nazis. Dachau was a concentration camp specifically for Catholics and Catholic clergy. So what’s your beef?

Look into $$, investments, and ammunition.

Actually, no. The RCC recognizes and does not condone marital rape.

Yes I know. They dont recognize 'rape' in marriage but the husband is allowed to have sex with the wife against her will. She is not allowed to deny him sex.

And here is how one of the RCC cultists here described it to me: there has never been any decision finding rape in marriage, it could never be proven. Meaning the woman would make the accusation and the man would deny it and the church would take his word for it. He said, she said, with the church always siding with the man.