Palestinian Animals ~ Remembering the Ramallah Lynchings 10 years ago

[alexa]

They were saying hateful things so I suggested counseling in a polite way, much like you did.

Yes, but when someone suggests they may be thinking of acting out on such hate a mod has to suggest getting help. I thought Arcaca XV also gave good advice. If all people are hearing is horrendous stuff about Muslims then it can effect them. Hopefully he will see his doctor and/or get more of an education on Islam and yes, keep away from Political forums for a time.

 

[bub]

I think I may need help. I am consumed with hatred to the point where it is starting to affect my health. Almost to the point of taking action.

What matters in a debate is that we should not automatically consider those who disagree with as "imbeciles", we should always remember that they can be intelligent people who may have a good point.


It's easy to say and hard to do, but maybe you should try to read books/articles that would make you understand the point of view of the Palestinians/Muslims, and not always books/articles that confirm what you think about them.

And first, of course, you should always try to remain calm. When something makes you get angry, then stop reading it, do something else.

As I've said, it's easy to say and hard to do, and myself I should make more efforts to apply what I'm saying here, but I think it's the right thing to do. Try to understand the other's point of view, do not automatically think that they're wrong, and remain calm.

A good tip is not to post too quickly what you have in mind. Take some time to think about it, usually it makes you more moderate.

 

[bub]

There is also something else I wanted to add, concerning all debates in general: it's never a good thing to "remember" bad things that have happened a long time ago, it does not help solving anything.

When the French officiers wanted to motivate their troops in 1914, they asked them to remember the annexion of Alsace by Germany in 1870.

When Hitler wanted to justify starting a new war, he told Germans to remember what had happened in Versailles in 1919.

When Flemish people want to justify measures taken against Frenchspeaking people in Flanders, they say that they have been oppressed by Frenchspeakers during centuries.

What we should do in the M/E is to try and reach a fair peace. Both sides have done bad things and I think it is a bad thing to endlessly remember young generations that older generations of the other side have done wrong things 50 years ago, as it won't solve anything, it won't help reaching peace, all it does is to radicalize the two sides.

At one point, people should try to pay more attention to their future, and realize that, whatever people have done in the past, they'll have to live together. For example, I find it remarkable that there isn't any animosity between French and German people or between Belgians and Germans: after all, my grandparents have all known the German invasion in 1940, all of them have fled, they have lived 4 years of occupation, they have witnessed atrocities, some relatives have been killed...and yet they don't talk about that every time they see the word "Germany".

That's one big difference with what I'm witnessing in the M/E (or at least on some parts of this forum), where some people seem very focused on the past.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

There is also something else I wanted to add, concerning all debates in general: it's never a good thing to "remember" bad things that have happened a long time ago, it does not help solving anything.

When the French officiers wanted to motivate their troops in 1914, they asked them to remember the annexion of Alsace by Germany in 1870.

When Hitler wanted to justify starting a new war, he told Germans to remember what had happened in Versailles in 1919.

When Flemish people want to justify measures taken against Frenchspeaking people in Flanders, they say that they have been oppressed by Frenchspeakers during centuries.

What we should do in the M/E is to try and reach a fair peace. Both sides have done bad things and I think it is a bad thing to endlessly remember young generations that older generations of the other side have done wrong things 50 years ago, as it won't solve anything, it won't help reaching peace, all it does is to radicalize the two sides.

At one point, people should try to pay more attention to their future, and realize that, whatever people have done in the past, they'll have to live together. For example, I find it remarkable that there isn't any animosity between French and German people or between Belgians and Germans: after all, my grandparents have all known the German invasion in 1940, all of them have fled, they have lived 4 years of occupation, they have witnessed atrocities, some relatives have been killed...and yet they don't talk about that every time they see the word "Germany".

That's one big difference with what I'm witnessing in the M/E (or at least on some parts of this forum), where some people seem very focused on the past.

bub, you know I've been saying this for ages. The biggest reason why I almost NEVER post in the ME Forum anymore, except as a moderator, is because every single thread, invariably degenerates into whether the 1948 Partition Plan was just. This is ALWAYS a pointless endevour. Here are the facts: Israel exists. This is not going to change. There are currently a people known as Palestinians. This is not going to change. I don't give a flying **** whether anyone thinks that Israel should never have been created, or whether the Palestinians are actually Palestinians... or Jordanians, or whatever. Discussing these issues, and other past issues like these, ad nauseum accompishes nothing. You have a problem with any of these things? Work out your anger around them in group or individual therapy. They are not changing. Focus on what the next step is to deal with the current situation. Wanna bitch about Jews being on formerly Arab land? No one cares. Talk to a therapist. Wanna complain that the Palestinians aren't a real people? Another irrelevant issue. Go write Dear Abby. The givens are as I said them. DEAL WITH IT. It ain't changing. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going anywhere. Folks must figure out a way to make this work. If not, then you have no business being part of any solutions.

 

[bub]

bub, you know I've been saying this for ages. The biggest reason why I almost NEVER post in the ME Forum anymore, except as a moderator, is because every single thread, invariably degenerates into whether the 1948 Partition Plan was just. This is ALWAYS a pointless endevour. Here are the facts: Israel exists. This is not going to change. There are currently a people known as Palestinians. This is not going to change. I don't give a flying **** whether anyone thinks that Israel should never have been created, or whether the Palestinians are actually Palestinians... or Jordanians, or whatever. Discussing these issues, and other past issues like these, ad nauseum accompishes nothing. You have a problem with any of these things? Work out your anger around them in group or individual therapy. They are not changing. Focus on what the next step is to deal with the current situation. Wanna bitch about Jews being on formerly Arab land? No one cares. Talk to a therapist. Wanna complain that the Palestinians aren't a real people? Another irrelevant issue. Go write Dear Abby. The givens are as I said them. DEAL WITH IT. It ain't changing. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going anywhere. Folks must figure out a way to make this work. If not, then you have no business being part of any solutions.

There should be a sticky thread in the M/E forum with posts such as this one.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

There should be a sticky thread in the M/E forum with posts such as this one.

I could sticky it, bub, but who would listen? A few people at first, but then someone would come in and bait people by saying "there have never been Palestinians" or "those that lived in the Mandate didn't have any say in the formation of Israel, so it shouldn't exist" and then those on the other side of this bait would defend their position... and then we have exactly what we have. I feel the futility of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by watching the futility of people discussing the past in the ME Forum. I've said this for years. The ME Forum is an analogous existence of the ME itself.

Perhaps I need to relook at Martial Law to address some of the points that I am reading, here.

 

[Mira]

I could sticky it, bub, but who would listen? A few people at first, but then someone would come in and bait people by saying "there have never been Palestinians" or "those that lived in the Mandate didn't have any say in the formation of Israel, so it shouldn't exist" and then those on the other side of this bait would defend their position... and then we have exactly what we have. I feel the futility of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by watching the futility of people discussing the past in the ME Forum. I've said this for years. The ME Forum is an analogous existence of the ME itself.

Perhaps I need to relook at Martial Law to address some of the points that I am reading, here.

I was having this very same conversation with Mustapha, a Lebanese friend who came to visit last week and we were basically saying the same thing.

The discussion began with him telling me how he met a young man during a theatre festival in Avignon with whom he got on really well and strated talking about a possible project. He then asked the young man to come and see him in Lebanon and the guy said that he can't because he's Israeli.

I know that some young people want to open up to each other. The first time that I met an Israeli I jumped backwards in shock. The only Israelis that I had met before were soldiers invading my country. I then gave myself the chance to open up and to meet some more Israelis and now I have quite a few Israeli friends.

The only way to get rid of xenophobia is by mixing with the "other". Bub is correct.

 

[Laila]

bub, you know I've been saying this for ages. The biggest reason why I almost NEVER post in the ME Forum anymore, except as a moderator, is because every single thread, invariably degenerates into whether the 1948 Partition Plan was just. This is ALWAYS a pointless endevour. Here are the facts: Israel exists. This is not going to change. There are currently a people known as Palestinians. This is not going to change. I don't give a flying **** whether anyone thinks that Israel should never have been created, or whether the Palestinians are actually Palestinians... or Jordanians, or whatever. Discussing these issues, and other past issues like these, ad nauseum accompishes nothing. You have a problem with any of these things? Work out your anger around them in group or individual therapy. They are not changing. Focus on what the next step is to deal with the current situation. Wanna bitch about Jews being on formerly Arab land? No one cares. Talk to a therapist. Wanna complain that the Palestinians aren't a real people? Another irrelevant issue. Go write Dear Abby. The givens are as I said them. DEAL WITH IT. It ain't changing. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going anywhere. Folks must figure out a way to make this work. If not, then you have no business being part of any solutions.

There should be a sticky thread in the M/E forum with posts such as this one.

x2
It should be the first thing anyone who enters the ME forum reads.

Any debate on this issue should ideally start on the premise that both Israel and the Palestinians are here to stay.