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Our PhD Surplus

I don't see how a PhD surplus would be a bad thing. I know in the sciences many PhD students get paid a stipend to attend grad school and do not have to take out loans. It's like a job (although far more stressful and demanding). Someone may have a PhD in Icelandic literature and by the market the only thing they may be able to do is teach a class on that, but I don't see how them obtaining their PhD was a bad thing to begin with.
 
We don't have a surplus of PhDs as a whole...just in certain subjects.

If you get a PhD in a social science or humanities subject, all you're qualified to do is teach that social science or humanities subjects.

Please clarify your definition of "social sciences" and "humanities subjects" so that I may address, at least in part, my dispute to your claim that "all you're qualified to do is teach...those subjects."

PhDs/DBAs in accountancy are quite rare, relatively. The pay increase between someone with an MBA and a CPA, and someone with a PhD, is minimal at best - and I've seen reports that 9-month first-year PhDs teaching at the university level (not year-round) average around $140,000 a year. It goes up to around $175,000 for year-round people, or people who do for-profit, publishable research in the off-time.

You must be talking about faculty of private institutions.

I mean, what's a PhD in African Studies or Sociology going to do for you? Bragging rights about the prefix of your name?

No, not only this. There actually are "real-world" applications of those doctorates.
 
It is definitely a problem that our economy is so focused on using people for repetitive, mindless work to feed a money making machine instead of fostering creative endeavor to improve our country. It's getting to the point where the population is simply too smart and too knowledgeable to allow oligarchical, profiteering capitalism much longer. If our economics can't keep up with our knowledge, it's the economics that need to change, not the knowledge.

That's silly.

Any of those people are free to create their own opportunities and their own ventures, which all these "smart" and "knowledgeable" people should be inclined to support.
 
Rainman05 said:
A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.

I'm curious to know what you mean by this. Do you believe we should not study humanities, the bible, or philosophy?
 
I'm curious to know what you mean by this. Do you believe we should not study humanities, the bible, or philosophy?

I guess it depends on what is defined as "useless." I'm guessing that "useless" means "not remunerative." I would argue that some must be "keepers of the flame," and by this I mean that some must hold an understanding of the great ideas and also be able to build on this understand it and interpret it in successive generations.

After all, we can't all be philistines, right?
 
A phd in a useless thing like liberal arts, bible studies, philosophy or interpretive music or whatever... is useless and has always been useless.

I would argue the exact opposite. Albeit these subjects are generally taught in such a way to preclude real wisdom being transferred today, but traditionally liberal arts are some of the most important areas of knowledge -moral, cultural, and spiritual knowledge besides which the value of engineers is small indeed.
 
nota bene said:
I guess it depends on what is defined as "useless."

Clearly.

nota bene said:
I'm guessing that "useless" means "not remunerative."

You're probably right, but I would take issue that any of the subjects that Rainman05 mentioned (except interpretive music--I'm not sure that's a real subject) in the bit I quoted are not in fact remunerative. Philosophy has made some critical and direct contributions to our economy. Nuclear power is as much a result of philosophy as physics; Einstein decided to take seriously ontological positivism (the precursor to logical positivism), which led to his breakthrough with special relativity. In general, the reasoning methods used (and misused, unfortunately) in the sciences were invented by philosophers.

Similarly, liberal arts produces all kinds of stuff that is of direct social value. Aside from the fact that people with liberal arts Ph.D's write books that can often sell well to the general public, the observations made by scholars in the liberal arts are sometimes of direct benefit in politics and business organization. Joseph Campbell's thesis in the "Masks of God" was put to some use by PR people in marketing campaigns, because clever marketing managers realized he was saying something correct about how human beings react to over-idealized objects. The notion of "brand recognition" didn't start there, but his work contributed (probably to his own chagrin) to the theory of how to establish it.

All that said, I would agree with your view: the questions addressed by Bible scholars, philosophers, people working in the humanities, etc. go to the very core of human concern. Without the possiblity of answers to those questions, life would be quite bleak. I would question whether people would continue to feel all that motivated if we were to suck all the philosophy, all the liberal arts, all the religion, etc. out of life.
 
IMO...

1. Elementary-high school teachers should be paid at the same level as lawyers and doctors, because their jobs are equally important to the economic and social growth of this country.

2. The field should be highly competitive. Accordingly, there should be no such thing as tenure, and it should be easy to replace teachers who aren't performing well.

3. Kids should only go to college if the training is actually necessary for their profession/career. Training purely for the sake of intellectual development should be taken care of in high school.

4. Higher education costs should be linked to the program's success at producing employable graduates. Schools should be on the hook for their alumni debt if their graduates can't find work.
 
Clearly.



You're probably right, but I would take issue that any of the subjects that Rainman05 mentioned (except interpretive music--I'm not sure that's a real subject) in the bit I quoted are not in fact remunerative. Philosophy has made some critical and direct contributions to our economy. Nuclear power is as much a result of philosophy as physics; Einstein decided to take seriously ontological positivism (the precursor to logical positivism), which led to his breakthrough with special relativity. In general, the reasoning methods used (and misused, unfortunately) in the sciences were invented by philosophers.

Similarly, liberal arts produces all kinds of stuff that is of direct social value. Aside from the fact that people with liberal arts Ph.D's write books that can often sell well to the general public, the observations made by scholars in the liberal arts are sometimes of direct benefit in politics and business organization. Joseph Campbell's thesis in the "Masks of God" was put to some use by PR people in marketing campaigns, because clever marketing managers realized he was saying something correct about how human beings react to over-idealized objects. The notion of "brand recognition" didn't start there, but his work contributed (probably to his own chagrin) to the theory of how to establish it.

All that said, I would agree with your view: the questions addressed by Bible scholars, philosophers, people working in the humanities, etc. go to the very core of human concern. Without the possiblity of answers to those questions, life would be quite bleak. I would question whether people would continue to feel all that motivated if we were to suck all the philosophy, all the liberal arts, all the religion, etc. out of life.

I guess the definition of "value" is highly subjective. If there isn't a ka-ching! into the old bank account, philistines don't appreciate alternative and more expansive definitions of the term.
 
I would argue the exact opposite. Albeit these subjects are generally taught in such a way to preclude real wisdom being transferred today, but traditionally liberal arts are some of the most important areas of knowledge -moral, cultural, and spiritual knowledge besides which the value of engineers is small indeed.

Well, your point of view is your point of view. I disagree with it strongly and state that an education, even to a high standard such as a phd, is worthwhile only in a few areas, such as engineering is.
 
I'm curious to know what you mean by this. Do you believe we should not study humanities, the bible, or philosophy?

No. We should study them, but there is no point to have an academia dedicated towards this purpose in the way it is now.

But you don't need to go to college to learn the bible or philosophy... you just need to have a willingness to read the Bible, read Kant, Descartes or if you're into the ancients, Aristotle.
 
Rainman05 said:
No. We should study them, but there is no point to have an academia dedicated towards this purpose in the way it is now.

I must disagree. First, I would point out that there's never been a millieu where learning actually made much progress, except where there was an academy. I would agree that its current incarnation leaves something to be desired (the politics behind the scenes can sometimes be ruthless, which stifles genuinely free inquiry). But this does not mean that academia isn't necessary...as it happens to be to the advancement of learning. Real learning takes place interacting in a structured manner with other individuals who have studied at least as much as you. Human minds move in very limited circles if left to their own devices. Even if you do read Kant or Descartes, you won't really understand what they might have been saying (let alone what they were actually saying) unless you get in a prolonged discussion with people who have also read Kant and Descartes.

And this says nothing of the sheer volume of information now available. The problem there is that most of what you read is only so-so. There are a few articles that are genuinely important, and that must be read in order to grasp a subject in its current and recent incarnations. But as a student who is just reading whatever you can get your hands upon, how are you to discern for yourself which articles are really important? For example, in Epistemology, there was an enormously influential article written by a fellow named Edmund Gettier. It was a short article (3 pages) which changed the direction of Epistemology both immediately and permanently. It became so important that for a decade, it was all that anyone in the field wrote about. The problem was that no citations were necessary, and there wasn't even a reason to name the kinds of examples being discussed. So if you want to read anything in Epistemology from the 1970's, you'd have no clue what was really going on unless someone had mentioned to you that you should look up Gettier's paper and start there.

Personal study is no substitute for working closely, and for a long period of time, with experts in a field.
 
I must disagree.

Shortened it for comment purposes. But I will address all the points you made.

You are correct in saying that real learning must exist within a structured environment and that human minds are indeed, more likely to find like-minded minds to interract with rather than others. And you are also correct in saying that there is a need for restructuring. I agree completely.

However. That doesn't change the fact that there is little use in the world for people who study philosophy or bible studies or koran studies.. or liberal arts, except maybe for flipping fries and burgers. The majority of these people are not going to use their knowledge to fundamentally improve the world. They can't. There is no way for them to do that. So for all practical purposes, getting a degree in such fields is useless to getting a better life or improving life. Some, the inspired ones, will start campaigns and movements to help improve a situation, but most... most will flip burgers and be enjoyable talking buddies over a beer... or annoying talking buddies over a beer.

And you don't need to make a priority in life to study all the philosophical documentation in the world. There is no need to do that. Find something that interests you, read it, and move on from there. For example, I am currently in the market for finding a good book that talks about stoicism. And when I find it, I shall make time to read it. Does that mean that i need to go to college for philosophy? No. It would be a waste of my time. I'd rather get into something that is actually useful, like engineering, programming and such... and I have.

And I can't provide any rebuttle on the Edmund Gettier stuff because I don't know anything about it.

And yes, working with experts in the fields is a good complement to personal study.
 
IMO...

1. Elementary-high school teachers should be paid at the same level as lawyers and doctors, because their jobs are equally important to the economic and social growth of this country.

2. The field should be highly competitive. Accordingly, there should be no such thing as tenure, and it should be easy to replace teachers who aren't performing well.

Totally agree. And just to add on, it's piss poor that the people that we entrust with our kids are often among the least well paid (for their educational level and responsiblity). Not only with teachers, but also with day care workers. I mean who the heck wants an untrained minimum wage employee caring for their kids.

3. Kids should only go to college if the training is actually necessary for their profession/career. Training purely for the sake of intellectual development should be taken care of in high school.

Totally disagree. I think that high school should mostly be about teaching students to function in the real world. This may vary with the individual students needs, sometimes it may be academic, sometimes vocational, sometimes home economics, child raising, basic 21st century life skills (like changing a tire on a car, or navigating the internet, or filling out a job application) or money managment. We probably need to do more of all these things. That doesn't leave much time for higher academic learning just for the sake of learning.

4. Higher education costs should be linked to the program's success at producing employable graduates. Schools should be on the hook for their alumni debt if their graduates can't find work.

No, I believe in more of a libertarian model for college. Students choose majors based upon whatever they want to study, how much study that they can afford, and their individual needs as far as how long they should spend in college. This may be different for every student. Liberal arts studies may make perfect sense for someone planning on going to grad school, but for someone with no interest in grad school, a BS may be more logical. Students and their parents should recognize the most employable fields, and those who have interest in and the aptitude for those fields will typically go into those fields. People who don't have a specific interest or aptitude may opt for a BA, and either go to grad school for a more specific specialty, or just look for one of those jobs that requires a college degree but no specific college degree (like I got fresh out of college).

Right now, engineering is the big thing to go into for college students. Our engineering programs are bursting at the seems with students who may or may not really be interested in engineering. Now imagine if every student decided to go into an engineering program because it was cheaper than maybe a BA in Ethnic Studies. We would be producing tons of C students who have no real interest in engineering, who would still have a hard time finding a job because their is simply to many of them. We would end up with colleges making wild swings in the pricetag of different programs because colleges are no better at predicting the future balance of supply and demand for any one particular job.

When I was growing up I was told to become an architect. Makes a lot of sense right, I mean it is a STEM major. But right now it is one of the least employable job fields that there are. On the other hand, we all know that psychology is a useless field, yet the unemployment rate for licensed school guidance councilors and school psychologist is near zero. During the last decade or two nursing was the big thing to go into. Now we have an oversupply of recent nursing school graduates who aren't able to find jobs. Law used to be a field in high demand, but not any more, unless you go to a top law school and have a GPA near perfect. New lawyers average starting salary is now no more than teachers.

Generally BA degrees primarily qualify one for grad school, while BS degrees are thought of as "professional" degrees which once completed qualifies a student to directly enter the job force. For someone with a BA to be employable, it is supposed to take additional training/education. Like someone with a BA in English or History might consider getting a MAT (Masters of Art in Teaching) to qualify them to become a public school teacher, or they might have a minor in education and take an extra semester to do their student teaching so that they can be certified to teach, or they could go to law school, or get an advanced degree in the same major as their undergrad degree so that they could teach at the college level or get a job writing or in a museum or whatever people with English and History degrees do.

BS degrees are considered a totally different animal, with the possible exception of BS degrees in math or science. Someone with a BS in engineering, or business, or nursing, or even music performance/composition/education (usually called a BM degree - not to be confused with a BA in music which is something totally different) is considered qualified for an entry level position directly in their field with no additional education needed.

BS degrees in science or math, much like BA degrees, typically don't have an immediate and direct employment track into the field of their major. Again, like the BA, they need some sort of advanced degree, or add on major/minor to have a direct track into the workforce. Let's face it, while a BS in math may typically be considered fairly impressive (compared to a BA in Sociology, or Womens Studies, or some other nonsense), I've never seen a job opening requesting someone with a BS in math. It usually takes some sort of very specific concentration in math or science to really qualify someone who has a BS in math or science to be employable.

There are always exceptions.
 
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Well, your point of view is your point of view. I disagree with it strongly and state that an education, even to a high standard such as a phd, is worthwhile only in a few areas, such as engineering is.

A Ph.D. in engineering and other disciplines can actually cost you jobs in the private sector because you're "overqualified." But the point of an education, at least in my view, isn't all about job training/learning a trade. What I mean is that it's not limited to the utilitarian.
 
College should be where you go to get a job.

If you want to learn the guitar, play the guitar for 4 years - don't go get a degree in music.

I'll tell you all right now that I'd know a HELL of a lot more about accounting if I got an accounting job and read a few books in my spare time for 6 years instead of getting an MBA in it. You go to any employer these days and give them two candidates for a job: one who's worked in the field 4 years, but no education beyond high school, and the other with no field experience, but a 4 year degree in the field.

99 out of 100 employers will take the person with no education and the 4 years experience EVERY time out of the gate, ceteris paribus. There's a reason for that.
 
A Ph.D. in engineering and other disciplines can actually cost you jobs in the private sector because you're "overqualified." But the point of an education, at least in my view, isn't all about job training/learning a trade. What I mean is that it's not limited to the utilitarian.

It closes up jobs, indeed, but it opens up new, better ones. Higher paying ones.
 
College should be where you go to get a job.

If you want to learn the guitar, play the guitar for 4 years - don't go get a degree in music.

I'll tell you all right now that I'd know a HELL of a lot more about accounting if I got an accounting job and read a few books in my spare time for 6 years instead of getting an MBA in it. You go to any employer these days and give them two candidates for a job: one who's worked in the field 4 years, but no education beyond high school, and the other with no field experience, but a 4 year degree in the field.

99 out of 100 employers will take the person with no education and the 4 years experience EVERY time out of the gate, ceteris paribus. There's a reason for that.

I guess Julliard will be shutting its doors soon.

Meanwhile, care to back up your 99 out of 100 claim?
 
College should be where you go to get a job.

If you want to learn the guitar, play the guitar for 4 years - don't go get a degree in music...

Getting a degree in music is a lot more than just playing an instrument for 4 years.
 
I guess Julliard will be shutting its doors soon.

Meanwhile, care to back up your 99 out of 100 claim?

Juliard is Harvard for the performing arts - just a place where the kids of a bunch of rich pricks hang out for years and strut around to learn completely nothing as far as a marketable skill.

If someone wants to pay them a 6 figure salary for standing on their tippy-toes while wearing pink spandex and a lacy skirt, so be it.
 
Juliard is Harvard for the performing arts - just a place where the kids of a bunch of rich pricks hang out for years and strut around to learn completely nothing as far as a marketable skill.

If someone wants to pay them a 6 figure salary for standing on their tippy-toes while wearing pink spandex and a lacy skirt, so be it.

I would think that any profession in which one can make a "6 figure salary" is a "marketable skill", regardless of work attire.

You might have heard of a few Juliard students, people like Val Kilmer, Christopher Reeve, Kevin Spacey, Robin Williams, Chick Corea, Eric Whitacre, Paul Waggoner, Charles Schlueter, have skills far more marketable than most MBA, law, or engineering students.
 
I would think that any profession in which one can make a "6 figure salary" is a "marketable skill", regardless of work attire.

You might have heard of a few Juliard students, people like Val Kilmer, Christopher Reeve, Kevin Spacey, Robin Williams, Chick Corea, Eric Whitacre, Paul Waggoner, Charles Schlueter, have skills far more marketable than most MBA, law, or engineering students.

And so, so many more.

Meanwhile, my comment about philistines stands.
 
And global problems. We could export our surplus phds to the developing world to reverse/stem the brain drain - exile, useless ones!

They have to compete with others for academic or research positions here. They may not be suitable for other industries as people with a first degree can do equally well.
 
They have to compete with others for academic or research positions here. They may not be suitable for other industries as people with a first degree can do equally well.

What? I'm talking about reversing the brain drain, owning poverty and bringing it to an end through having to deal with the consequences personally. There are jobs waiting.
 
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