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Orlando Terror Attack Live Updates: [READ THE OP BEFORE POSTING]

no one disputes that ISIS as a group did this, but they have plenty of people inspired by them whom they are directing to conduct attacks and obviously their adoring fans stateside are answering the call.

so what's the difference?

You're right in that they have people who look up to them all over the globe. My point is that their claim is so loosely worded that basically they are going to take credit for any bad thing that happens to the US. I bet they'd like to retroactively take credit for hurricane Katrina.

This guy was mentally disturbed first and then when he decided to do harm THEN said it was because an allegiance to ISIS. I'm saying ISIS and their agenda probably didn't motivate him at all. I could be wrong and we will see as things unfold more. It's starting to look more like he was mentally tortured by being a gay man trying hard not to live a not very life, then taking out this internal conflict on others.

Like I said though... we will see as more comes to light.
 
law enforcement source says Disney notified FBI the couple may have been casing Disney in April

that explains why so many trips to the club. obviously casing the joint.

For years?
 
For years?

doubt that will turn out to be true. this insane story where his father was pro-ISIS, he called 911 during the shooting to TELL THE POLICE he was pro-ISIS, yet people like are going with the "that was just a cover" argument. honestly, you can't really believe that, can you? what rational person could? come on!
 
doubt that will turn out to be true. this insane story where his father was pro-ISIS, he called 911 during the shooting to TELL THE POLICE he was pro-ISIS, yet people like are going with the "that was just a cover" argument. honestly, you can't really believe that, can you? what rational person could? come on!

While you are cherry picking the interwebz to support what it is you wish it to be... I'm kind of waiting to flesh out what really happened. And that explains why your argument is more emotion based.
 
While you are cherry picking the interwebz to support what it is you wish it to be... I'm kind of waiting to flesh out what really happened. And that explains why your argument is more emotion based.

per law enforcement source, on day of shooting, Mateen posted "Now taste the Islamic state vengeance".

l don't look at that and think emotionally. I look at that and think like any reasonable person would. any reasonable person except you I mean.
 
per law enforcement source, on day of shooting, Mateen posted "Now taste the Islamic state vengeance".

l don't look at that and think emotionally. I look at that and think like any reasonable person would. any reasonable person except you I mean.

If you aren't looking at it emotionally, then why is your argument getting personal?
 
If you aren't looking at it emotionally, then why is your argument getting personal?

my apologies. so explain his posting that message on the day of the attack. why do you think he would make a remark like that? and if the answer is so complicated it belongs in a tom clancy novel, don't bother. I'll stick with Occam's razor thank you very much.
 
doubt that will turn out to be true. this insane story where his father was pro-ISIS, he called 911 during the shooting to TELL THE POLICE he was pro-ISIS, yet people like are going with the "that was just a cover" argument. honestly, you can't really believe that, can you? what rational person could? come on!

Actually, it makes a lot of sense.

If the reports about this guy having accounts on multiple gay hook-up apps and patronizing the club for a year or more are true that's no longer "research".

When we look at this guy's support for various radical Islamist organizations who don't get along with one another, the fact that he operated alone and his substantial history of ties to this establishment it makes sense that he was conflicted between his sexual identity and his faith. It also appears that due to that conflict he wasn't accepted in his religious community, his work community or his social community.

It's actually very likely that he acted out as he did because he saw it as the only way out. By doing what he did he (to his thinking) had adopted the mantle of warrior for his faith as a way to make up for his failings within that faith.
 
Actually, it makes a lot of sense.

If the reports about this guy having accounts on multiple gay hook-up apps and patronizing the club for a year or more are true that's no longer "research".

When we look at this guy's support for various radical Islamist organizations who don't get along with one another, the fact that he operated alone and his substantial history of ties to this establishment it makes sense that he was conflicted between his sexual identity and his faith. It also appears that due to that conflict he wasn't accepted in his religious community, his work community or his social community.

It's actually very likely that he acted out as he did because he saw it as the only way out. By doing what he did he (to his thinking) had adopted the mantle of warrior for his faith as a way to make up for his failings within that faith.

possible, but incredibly unlikely. now there may be some truth to the self-hating gay thing, let's wait for more info on that. but you saw that he was also casing Disney. why would he be considering shooting up disney if what you are saying is true? it doesn't add up. He was looking for soft targets, and he(clearly) didn't make it specific to the gay community.
 
possible, but incredibly unlikely. now there may be some truth to the self-hating gay thing, let's wait for more info on that. but you saw that he was also casing Disney. why would he be considering shooting up disney if what you are saying is true? it doesn't add up.

We don't know that he was "casing" the Disney property. All we know is that there are reports he may have been casing the place and that the times he visited coincided with "Gay Days". Since, according to the reports, he went there alone he could have also been trolling for some action.
 
my apologies. so explain his posting that message on the day of the attack. why do you think he would make a remark like that? and if the answer is so complicated it belongs in a tom clancy novel, don't bother. I'll stick with Occam's razor thank you very much.

I'm guessing here just like you are... so having to guess id say he was a Muslim who didn't belong to anything or anyone because he probably burned all his bridges being bipolar.

So being Muslim was his only affiliation to anything so he just ranted to justify having an actual purpose where there was none. Which explains why his rant claimed affiliation with various Muslim groups that are actually enemies.

Mass shooting modes often make no sense like that. Just watch the videos of the VA Tech shooter's rants.
 
That's called the Acquired islamic Vimtimhood Complex aka Perpetual muslim Victimhood syndrome.

I talk about it more here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...politics-islam-w-368-a-79.html#post1065964235

interesting, since lgbt are often accused on this forum of the same

i don't think the fbi's glorification of their own uselessness is anything new. They has wavered between incompetent (tim mcveigh getting a new hearing being one of the more notorious **** ups) and medieval for their entire existence. When they hide behind 'due process' after a botched legit surveillance i have to cringe at the thought of their founder's witch hunts
 
Due process can be very pesky, can't it?
 
Terrorsplaining.

I'm guessing here just like you are... so having to guess id say he was a Muslim who didn't belong to anything or anyone because he probably burned all his bridges being bipolar.

So being Muslim was his only affiliation to anything so he just ranted to justify having an actual purpose where there was none. Which explains why his rant claimed affiliation with various Muslim groups that are actually enemies.

Mass shooting modes often make no sense like that. Just watch the videos of the VA Tech shooter's rants.
 
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Well I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.


Was just putting forth an educated guess... just as I said. Based on the facts put forth thus far.
 
doubt that will turn out to be true. this insane story where his father was pro-ISIS, he called 911 during the shooting to TELL THE POLICE he was pro-ISIS, yet people like are going with the "that was just a cover" argument. honestly, you can't really believe that, can you? what rational person could? come on!

Why would taking ALL the facts into consideration be something other than proper procedure?
 
Why would taking ALL the facts into consideration be something other than proper procedure?

hey, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Mine is the simplest explanation, whereas you have to jump two tall fences and cross a raging river to get to your explanation. see the difference?
 
hey, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Mine is the simplest explanation, whereas you have to jump two tall fences and cross a raging river to get to your explanation. see the difference?

As is so often the case, we may never know what was going on in that head of his. To be honest, this guy was obviously a hot mess.

Frankly nothing would surprise me.

That said the gun violence in this country is a problem that seems worse than ever. I,for one, wish both left and right would do something about it.
 
doubt that will turn out to be true. this insane story where his father was pro-ISIS, he called 911 during the shooting to TELL THE POLICE he was pro-ISIS, yet people like are going with the "that was just a cover" argument. honestly, you can't really believe that, can you? what rational person could? come on!
There's any number of possible scenarios wherein the attacker claims he's doing this thing on behalf of ISIS and yet is not.

He might be confused, he might have some lingering ideas from growing up with a father who liked ISIS-type organizations (but since he was 29, there's no way in hell he was a kid when ISIS was around, they only started like 2-5 years ago, if that...)

I don't think it was a cover, unless it was a cover for his own mind as well - perhaps he wanted to be part of something and couldn't...


But unless/until they find some kind of ties, connection, planning, execution orders, or whatnot from ISIS telling him to do this...
I'm going to consider it most likely that this attack was carried out by a solo confused person who claimed he was doing it on behalf of ISIS for reasons we can frankly only make guesses at.

Unless ISIS is ridiculously good at operational security, I expect the FBI will find something, if there is anything to be found.


After all they probably need to redeem themselves in some way after having interviewed and investigated this guy multiple times before he did this...
 
There's any number of possible scenarios wherein the attacker claims he's doing this thing on behalf of ISIS and yet is not.

He might be confused, he might have some lingering ideas from growing up with a father who liked ISIS-type organizations (but since he was 29, there's no way in hell he was a kid when ISIS was around, they only started like 2-5 years ago, if that...)

I don't think it was a cover, unless it was a cover for his own mind as well - perhaps he wanted to be part of something and couldn't...


But unless/until they find some kind of ties, connection, planning, execution orders, or whatnot from ISIS telling him to do this...
I'm going to consider it most likely that this attack was carried out by a solo confused person who claimed he was doing it on behalf of ISIS for reasons we can frankly only make guesses at.

Unless ISIS is ridiculously good at operational security, I expect the FBI will find something, if there is anything to be found.


After all they probably need to redeem themselves in some way after having interviewed and investigated this guy multiple times before he did this...



I think there's certainly an Islamic connection -- guy raised in conservative Muslim family is brought up to hate gays and homosexuality, and then irony of ironies, finds out that he's gay. He tries to embrace a gay lifestyle, but then one day - on Ramadan, that holiest time where Muslims are supposed to reflect on their alleged sins - he comes to the conclusion that he has become the abomination he was always told to hate. He reacts by seeking redemption in embracing Islamic martyrdom while taking out the "den of evil" (gay nightclub) like the loyal God-fearing Muslim he wants to be.

So even in that scenario, we need to blame and criticize the attitudes and narratives promoted in the Islamic world against gays. Even some Christians may have differences with gays, but they overwhelmingly don't promote killing/massacring people.

Meanwhile, look at this guy (posted April 6):

 
no one disputes that ISIS as a group did this, but they have plenty of people inspired by them whom they are directing to conduct attacks and obviously their adoring fans stateside are answering the call.

so what's the difference?

Actually, that is disputed. It was done by an individual, for what appears to be come complex, perhaps even conflicting reasons. ISIS claims credit, but they did not "do this".
 
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