Open message to communists

[rathi]

Its an accurate point that communism resulted in large amounts of suffering when implemented. The problem with people like the OP if that they forget their kind of rabid anti-communist attitude was equally destructive. One should be able to criticize an ideology with reason rather than fanaticism.

 

[Papa bull]

If that means forcing them to invest more in their staff, or trying to force them to invest their excess capital into their business one way or the other, so be it. I guess a general concern over the economy as a wholesales me a red.

That's something that seems to be a common link among communists; a complete contempt for property rights except as it is applied to their own property, which of course, is different.

 

[Papa bull]

I did not say they were against capitalism, I said they were against abuses of capitalism, there is a distinct difference. Its interesting that if anyone criticizes U.S. business they are automatically called "anti-capitalist". If anyone supports "the people" they are automatically socialists. This seems like a defense mechanism to guard against legitimate complaints.

And that's where the "honest discussion" fails. I've seen some of your "legitimate complaints".

We have court systems that deal with LEGITIMATE complaints about LEGITIMATE abuses stemming from capitalism.

 

[Sisyphus]

1. Try honesty.

2. Instead of all the dishonest propaganda and innuendo that constantly flies about. Instead of all the specious rationalizations, how about just saying it like it is.

3. You think the rich have obscene amounts of money. You think there is so much that there is no reason why anyone shouldn't have a modestly comfortable life here. You would like the government to arrange for the stripping of all that excess wealth and using it to better the lives of the common man in this country. You would like for corporations to be forced to do "the right thing" by the government and you don't think profit for shareholders is that right thing, but rather, paying all employees a very good wage and producing products at the most modest prices.

I don't think it's justifiable or practical and I don't think it would be productive to even try to go there. I think communism is an ideology that fails in practice every time. I don't think you would convince me that it would work, but you might get farther along with your agenda and ideals if it wasn't so apparent that communists are compulsive liars.

1. Why? You would not recognize honesty if it was giving you head.

2. What intentionally false propaganda? Insurance mandates = government takeover of your health care? Obama will create death panels? Supply-side will enrich the lower and middle class? Taxing future income with informed consent that it will be taxed is stealing from citizens? Obama was not born in HI (50th US state)?

3. No; the Wealthy do not have obscene amounts of money; they have merely consolidated far too much of the nation's collective wealth, to the detriment of our middle class, small businesses and even the wealthy, since dual economies diminish wealth for all classes.

 

[Papa bull]

Its an accurate point that communism resulted in large amounts of suffering when implemented. The problem with people like the OP if that they forget their kind of rabid anti-communist attitude was equally destructive. One should be able to criticize an ideology with reason rather than fanaticism.

How about with honesty rather than lies. That's the point of the OP. Lies, hyperbole and specious argumentation aren't "reason".

 

[Verax]

And that's where the "honest discussion" fails. I've seen some of your "legitimate complaints".

We have court systems that deal with LEGITIMATE complaints about LEGITIMATE abuses stemming from capitalism.

So what you are basically claiming is that capitalism in the U.S. is perfect? There are no abuses, no legitimate complaints, everything is exactly as it should be?

 

[Papa bull]

No; the Wealthy do not have obscene amounts of money; they have merely consolidated far too much of the nation's collective wealth, to the detriment of our middle class, small businesses and even the wealthy, since dual economies diminish wealth for all classes.

THERE IT IS!!!!! That's communism sneaking out. It's not "the nation's collective wealth" that "the rich have consolidated". It's individual wealth they amassed for themselves. There is no "collective wealth" here in the USA and every time you hear someone braying about the "shares of the nation's collective wealth", you know that they're the people Joe McCarthy warned us about. Just sayin'.

 

[Papa bull]

So what you are basically claiming is that capitalism in the U.S. is perfect? There are no abuses, no legitimate complaints, everything is exactly as it should be?

Well, wouldn't that mean the courts and legal system wouldn't be necessary? Didn't I just say that they deal with those problems? This is that honesty thing I was talking about. You go out of your way to misrepresent what I've said.

 

[Sisyphus]

THERE IT IS!!!!! That's communism sneaking out. It's not "the nation's collective wealth" that "the rich have consolidated". It's individual wealth they amassed for themselves. There is no "collective wealth" here in the USA and every time you hear someone braying about the "shares of the collective nation's wealth", you know that they're the people Joe McCarthy warned us about. Just sayin'.

Commie card (read: epic fail)

 

[Verax]

THERE IT IS!!!!! That's communism sneaking out. It's not "the nation's collective wealth" that "the rich have consolidated". It's individual wealth they amassed for themselves. There is no "collective wealth" here in the USA and every time you hear someone braying about the "shares of the collective nation's wealth", you know that they're the people Joe McCarthy warned us about. Just sayin'.

And there is the big reveal. You have mistakenly assumed that if one gets their hands on money there is only one possible reason, and that is because it is THEIRS. There is no such thing as crime, corruption, or exploitation in your model of capitalism. If the corporations get their hands on all the money they deserve all the money, end of story eh?

 

[Verax]

Well, wouldn't that mean the courts and legal system wouldn't be necessary? Didn't I just say that they deal with those problems? This is that honesty thing I was talking about. You go out of your way to misrepresent what I've said.

Just like the courts dealt with the wall street criminals? I don't think you can say its very effective then.

 

[Papa bull]

Commie card (read: epic fail)

You're the one that thinks in terms of "the collective wealth". "Collective wealth" is a communist idea. Everyone else considers wealth to be individual in nature. Yours is yours. Mine is mine. Not "ours collectively to be properly shared". We're not married and don't even ask... I'm already taken.

 

[rathi]

How about with honesty rather than lies. That's the point of the OP. Lies, hyperbole and specious argumentation aren't "reason".

You have not demonstrated any arguments outlining the flaws of the command economy. All you do is chant "capitalism good, communism bad" like the pigs from animal farm.

 

[Papa bull]

Just like the courts dealt with the wall street criminals? I don't think you can say its very effective then.

I don't think you can say that it's not effective unless you want to count all the crimes where there isn't any evidence to convict because they're all crimes in your head. When there are real crimes, we can press real charges.

 

[Mr X]

Try honesty.

Instead of all the dishonest propaganda and innuendo that constantly flies about. Instead of all the specious rationalizations, how about just saying it like it is.

You think the rich have obscene amounts of money. You think there is so much that there is no reason why anyone shouldn't have a modestly comfortable life here. You would like the government to arrange for the stripping of all that excess wealth and using it to better the lives of the common man in this country. You would like for corporations to be forced to do "the right thing" by the government and you don't think profit for shareholders is that right thing, but rather, paying all employees a very good wage and producing products at the most modest prices.

I don't think it's justifiable or practical and I don't think it would be productive to even try to go there. I think communism is an ideology that fails in practice every time. I don't think you would convince me that it would work, but you might get farther along with your agenda and ideals if it wasn't so apparent that communists are compulsive liars.

It's clear from this post that you don't actually know what communism is.
Regardless: If you think it's unjustified for companies to give employees a good wage, then there's really no point debating anything with you.

 

[Papa bull]

You have not demonstrated any arguments outlining the flaws of the command economy. All you do is chant "capitalism good, communism bad" like the pigs from animal farm.

That's because the OP wasn't about capitalism good and communism bad. It was a challenge to communists to try to promote their agenda without the usual lies and deception.

 

[Verax]

I don't think you can say that it's not effective unless you want to count all the crimes where there isn't any evidence to convict because they're all crimes in your head. When there are real crimes, we can press real charges.

So you're saying there were no crimes committed by wall street?

LMFAO. Well then.

I think I'm done here. Conservatives are just suckers as usual. Blinded by the threat of "commies" and "big bad gubmint". You're so terrified of them you don't even notice the banks emptied your account. :2razz:

 

[Papa bull]

It's clear from this post that you don't actually know what communism is.
Regardless: If you think it's unjustified for companies to give employees a good wage, then there's really no point debating anything with you.

Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one you hit. Lots of yelpers here.

I think it's entirely justified for companies to give employees a good wage. I just don't think "they" should be "forced to"... not by you, anyway. Market forces handle that. If no one wants to work for them any more, then they're hands are called. If they can't get the calibre of worker they need for the wages they pay, then they're forced to do better. For you to "force" them just because you have an arbitrary value for their labor in your head is wrong. You have no right to force your will on other people, particularly in regard to what they must do with their money.

 

[Papa bull]

So you're saying there were no crimes committed by wall street?

There's that ubiquitous communist dishonesty rearing it's ugly head again. I said no such thing. We would have no need for the SEC if there were no crimes committed by wall street. And that's not counting all the stuff the FBI deals with. When there are real crimes there are real charges.

 

[Sisyphus]

You're the one that thinks in terms of "the collective wealth". "Collective wealth" is a communist idea. Everyone else considers wealth to be individual in nature. Yours is yours. Mine is mine. Not "ours collectively to be properly shared". We're not married and don't even ask... I'm already taken.

Collective wealth is something real (combined wealth of a nation of people), and not a political ideology. I'm shocked you do not know that, since anyone with an IQ north or a goldfish should be able to pick up on it.

 

[Mr X]

Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one you hit. Lots of yelpers here.

I think it's entirely justified for companies to give employees a good wage. I just don't think "they" should be "forced to"... not by you, anyway. Market forces handle that. If no one wants to work for them any more, then they're hands are called. If they can't get the calibre of worker they need for the wages they pay, then they're forced to do better. For you to "force" them just because you have an arbitrary value for their labor in your head is wrong. You have no right to force your will on other people, particularly in regard to what they must do with their money.

lol. The real world doesn't work that way. Most people aren't in a position to walk away from a job or turn it down.
Do you think the people in Bangladesh working in sweatshops for $1 a day are doing it because they think it's a good deal???

 

[Verax]

There's that ubiquitous communist dishonesty rearing it's ugly head again. I said no such thing. We would have no need for the SEC if there were no crimes committed by wall street. And that's not counting all the stuff the FBI deals with. When there are real crimes there are real charges.

My aren't you quite the bullsh1tter, oh hey, look at your avatar. :lamo

 

[Papa bull]

Collective wealth is something real (combines wealth of a nation of people), and not a political ideology. I'm shocked you do not know that, since anyone with an IQ north or a goldfish should be able to pick up on it.

Collective wealth is a communist idea. There is no "collective wealth". That is merely the communist way of thinking of everyone else's wealth as something they have some entitlement to. After all, it's the nation's collective wealth and they're part of "the nation", so they deserve their fair share, right? It's bull****. It's just a way of rationalizing why you should be entitled to the wealth of others.

 

[rathi]

That's because the OP wasn't about capitalism good and communism bad. It was a challenge to communists to try to promote their agenda without the usual lies and deception.

The OP did not have an actual argument, you just wanted to show everyone you are a good guy because you hate the evil communist devil. Accusing communists of wanting to steal other peoples money is a bad joke. The communists you find on a forum like this are the kind of upper-middle class intellectuals who live quite comfortably and would lose out during redistribution.

 

[Papa bull]

My aren't you quite the bullsh1tter, oh hey, look at your avatar. :lamo

You're the one that continually lies about what someone else said when you're "rewording" it for them....

You seem to be trying really hard to win the coveted pot-calling-the-kettle-black award for the year, aren't you?