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Open message to communists

Papa bull

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Try honesty.

Instead of all the dishonest propaganda and innuendo that constantly flies about. Instead of all the specious rationalizations, how about just saying it like it is.

You think the rich have obscene amounts of money. You think there is so much that there is no reason why anyone shouldn't have a modestly comfortable life here. You would like the government to arrange for the stripping of all that excess wealth and using it to better the lives of the common man in this country. You would like for corporations to be forced to do "the right thing" by the government and you don't think profit for shareholders is that right thing, but rather, paying all employees a very good wage and producing products at the most modest prices.

I don't think it's justifiable or practical and I don't think it would be productive to even try to go there. I think communism is an ideology that fails in practice every time. I don't think you would convince me that it would work, but you might get farther along with your agenda and ideals if it wasn't so apparent that communists are compulsive liars.
 

joko104

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Summary of the OP...

"Dear Communists,

You all suck.

Sincerely,
Papa Bull "
 

Gardener

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I think you just need to be a little patient, Papabull. Once they get out of their teens, most of the communists do grow up.
 

Sherman123

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I'm adamantly not a Communist sympathizer but those who are actually Marxists tend to have more sophisticated views and a much more comprehensive ideological framework (perhaps moreso than any other political persuasion) than that. As a general theme some of that lines up but a lot of it doesn't. A true Marxist doesn't think that the rich have too much money, he thinks that the capitalist and management classes are the oppressors of the proletariat and need to be tossed down and replaced with a revolutionary collective economic regime post haste.

What you have sounds more like an epistle to Democratic Socialists but... that's kind of what they already say. It's pretty rare to meet an actual Marxist.
 

German guy

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Try honesty.

Instead of all the dishonest propaganda and innuendo that constantly flies about. Instead of all the specious rationalizations, how about just saying it like it is.

You think the rich have obscene amounts of money. You think there is so much that there is no reason why anyone shouldn't have a modestly comfortable life here. You would like the government to arrange for the stripping of all that excess wealth and using it to better the lives of the common man in this country. You would like for corporations to be forced to do "the right thing" by the government and you don't think profit for shareholders is that right thing, but rather, paying all employees a very good wage and producing products at the most modest prices.

I don't think it's justifiable or practical and I don't think it would be productive to even try to go there. I think communism is an ideology that fails in practice every time. I don't think you would convince me that it would work, but you might get farther along with your agenda and ideals if it wasn't so apparent that communists are compulsive liars.
Do you have particular communists in mind, like posters on this forum?
 

Gaugingcatenate

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Summary of the OP...

"Dear Communists,

You all suck.

Sincerely,
Papa Bull "
They do suck. And you can add the Socialists too.

They suck all of the incentive out of workers to do a good job, they suck all incentives out of businesses to make products and employ others, they suck all the desire out of investors to invest in good ideas since they will not be allowed a profit and so they then suck up the economy. When that happens they suck up all the good things for the elites to use and not for the rest. In practice they have shown that they really suck at protecting the environment, they suck at making anything that is worth having. With their word and thought police they suck up all the humor and individuality that we Americans so desire.

Man, do they suck.
 

Artevelde

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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, including Communists. If they want to defend an inherently anti-democratic and anti-human ideology, with a proven track record as one of the most murderous political ideologies of all time, then let them.
 

Papa bull

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I'm adamantly not a Communist sympathizer but those who are actually Marxists tend to have more sophisticated views and a much more comprehensive ideological framework (perhaps moreso than any other political persuasion) than that. As a general theme some of that lines up but a lot of it doesn't. A true Marxist doesn't think that the rich have too much money, he thinks that the capitalist and management classes are the oppressors of the proletariat and need to be tossed down and replaced with a revolutionary collective economic regime post haste.

What you have sounds more like an epistle to Democratic Socialists but... that's kind of what they already say. It's pretty rare to meet an actual Marxist.
I can sympathize with the pinko desire to have the government take from the rich to give to.. well... themselves. But I think they should dispense with the rationalizations and dishonest games and just say that theft isn't a bad thing so long as it profits them and that property rights are overrated when it's other peoples' property that is in question. It might not be very politically correct for them to say... "look... you rich folks.... we want your stuff". But it would, at least be honest and a very refreshing change of pace.
 

Papa bull

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Do you have particular communists in mind, like posters on this forum?
I'm easy to get along with.... if anyone feels the shoe fits, they may feel free to wear it.
 

German guy

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I'm easy to get along with.... if anyone feels the shoe fits, they may feel free to wear it.
I see... well, I just wondered because communists are such a fringe group today. In my experience, very hard to find outside of North Korea and Cuba these days, if at all.
 

Artevelde

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I see... well, I just wondered because communists are such a fringe group today. In my experience, very hard to find outside of North Korea and Cuba these days, if at all.
While you are right there are relatively few places where they are in power, Communist parties are present in most countries, including virtually all European countries.
 

German guy

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While you are right there are relatively few places where they are in power, Communist parties are present in most countries, including virtually all European countries.
Yeah, but as far as I know, they're just using the "communist" label out of mere tradition (when they do that at all) ... they're more like reformed democratic socialists or worker lobby parties these days.
 

Papa bull

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I see... well, I just wondered because communists are such a fringe group today. In my experience, very hard to find outside of North Korea and Cuba these days, if at all.
It's such an ugly word that no one wants to self-identify. It's such a clearly failed ideology that it's a bit of an embarrassment. I imagine one day, they'll come out of the closet like the homosexuals have done and start having communist pride parades and what have you. But I don't see that happening any time too soon. The embarrassment is still too strong.
 

German guy

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It's such an ugly word that no one wants to self-identify. It's such a clearly failed ideology that it's a bit of an embarrassment. I imagine one day, they'll come out of the closet like the homosexuals have done and start having communist pride parades and what have you. But I don't see that happening any time too soon. The embarrassment is still too strong.
Or imagine the horror when extraterrestrial aliens visit earth, and *gasp*, they're communists! :D
 

Artevelde

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Yeah, but as far as I know, they're just using the "communist" label out of mere tradition (when they do that at all) ... they're more like reformed democratic socialists or worker lobby parties these days.
No, most of them are Communist. People who call themselves Communist clearly defend this inhuman and anti-democratic ideology. Look at the PDS which is filled with apologists for the DDR-tyranny.
 

German guy

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No, most of them are Communist. People who call themselves Communist clearly defend this inhuman and anti-democratic ideology. Look at the PDS which is filled with apologists for the DDR-tyranny.
Well, first of all, the PDS no longer exists since 2005. And their successor, today's Left Party, includes many nuts without a doubt, and I would never vote for them, but in all fairness, I have to say that at least their top politicians and their leadership are more left-leaning social democrats than commies, and even they condemn the oppression in the GDR.
 

Artevelde

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Very much like the term "people's democracy" is a sure way to know that a state is absolutely anti-democratic, the term "democratic socialist" (as opposed to social-democrat) is a sure way to know that a party is absolutely anti-democratic.
 

Papa bull

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Or imagine the horror when extraterrestrial aliens visit earth, and *gasp*, they're communists! :D
It would require highly advanced intelligence to visit Earth from another planet. That eliminates any possibility that they would be communists. Communism only works well for the lowest life forms. Ants and bees are good examples.
 

Artevelde

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Well, first of all, the PDS no longer exists since 2005. And their successor, today's Left Party, includes many nuts without a doubt, and I would never vote for them, but in all fairness, I have to say that at least their top politicians and their leadership are more left-leaning social democrats than commies, and even they condemn the oppression in the GDR.
They remain a successor party to the Communists. It's a bit like saying the NPD condemns the excesses of the Nazi-regime.
 

German guy

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They remain a successor party to the Communists. It's a bit like saying the NPD condemns the excesses of the Nazi-regime.
It's pretty ugly that I of all people have to defend the Left Party, as I usually love to bash them ... but no, they're not anywhere close to the NPD, which is an openly anti-democratic and anti-constitutional party. In 1990 already, the "Gorbachev fraction" took over the PDS and those most responsible for the regime were thrown out. 70% of their members today had not been SED/PDS members before 1990. And while they have a "communist group" within their party, which is observed by the Verfassungsschutz ("Office for the Protection of the Constitution") along the NPD for good reason, that's only one among many, usually much more moderate groups within that party (other groups are unionists, pacifists, democratic socialists or social democrats and so on, including a pragmatic reformist wing most of their top people come from).

It's true that they often use social populism and abuse the common nostalgia for the GDR among many of their Eastern voters, which is very ugly, sure, but nowhere near the inhumanity and open approval of dictatorship you see from the NPD. And in three state governments, the Left Party even successfully cooperated as junior partner of the Social Democrats, taking responsibility for rather strict "anti-social" spending cut programs.

So as much as I hate the Left Party for their stupid populism and their disgusting slogans, I just have to say they're far from being another NPD.
 
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Verax

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So I'm curious, can anyone tell me. Is there anything wrong with the current capitalist system we employ in the U.S.? Are there any abuses going on here or is it just 100% good old fashioned red blooded business? If there were some legitimately bad things going on with capitalism in the U.S., what would you call people who are against that? Would you call them commies, socialists, or would they have another name?
 

Papa bull

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So I'm curious, can anyone tell me. Is there anything wrong with the current capitalist system we employ in the U.S.? Are there any abuses going on here or is it just 100% good old fashioned red blooded business? If there were some legitimately bad things going on with capitalism in the U.S., what would you call people who are against that? Would you call them commies, socialists, or would they have another name?
That's a dilemma, isn't it? What do the "anti-capitalists" call themselves these days since every label used in the past for them has become pejorative in nature merely by association with their ideals. Tough call, isn't it?
 

KevinKohler

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Does my desire for economic benefit for all (even those evil rich people) via government force (taxation or minimum wage) to influence the decision making process of the owners of the means of production make me a communist?


If that's the case, I think you're confused...but so be it. If you want to call it communism (lol), by all means, knock yourself out.


My counter points to yours, however...

In the age of corporatism in which we now live, elected officials don't have NEAR the power or control over my life than the CEOs, and I don't get to vote CEOs out of office. Nor, apparently, does the market (too big to fail). And even if we DID let large corporations topple as the direct result of piss poor management, entire towns...hell, major cities, die with them. If YOU became destitute by the direct action of an elected official, you have a vote, even a redress of grievances. We can't even send CEOs to jail when they are acting illegally. The actions and choices of about 109 people prior to 2008 crashed the entire world market. Who's in jail? From who do we, the people affected, seek restitution? Can I sue AIG? Can I sue Goldman Sachs?

What then is the recourse of the common man? I'll tell you. If we can't hold them accountable, and make examples out of them for others to see and fear, then we're going to FORCE them to treat their positions of influence over all our lives with respect beyond ONE years quarterly statements. If that means forcing them to invest more in their staff, or trying to force them to invest their excess capital into their business one way or the other, so be it. I guess a general concern over the economy as a whole makes me a red.
 

Verax

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That's a dilemma, isn't it? What do the "anti-capitalists" call themselves these days since every label used in the past for them has become pejorative in nature merely by association with their ideals. Tough call, isn't it?
I did not say they were against capitalism, I said they were against abuses of capitalism, there is a distinct difference. Its interesting that if anyone criticizes U.S. business they are automatically called "anti-capitalist". If anyone supports "the people" they are automatically socialists. This seems like a defense mechanism to guard against legitimate complaints.
 
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