Oliver Cromwell

[Rexedgar]

I know of one poster here that says they are based in Ireland. I was interested to find what the current feeling is regarding the first Lord Protector.

Disclaimer: I was reading some military history recently and learned some things that I had not been aware of.

 

[BitterPill]

I know of one poster here that says they are based in Ireland. I was interested to find what the current feeling is regarding the first Lord Protector.

Disclaimer: I was reading some military history recently and learned some things that I had not been aware of.

I am curious about what you learned about Oliver and would appreciate you sharing it, please?

 

[Loulit01]

I would be floored if anyone in the republic had a kind word to say about Cromwell.

 

[Felis Leo]

I would be floored if anyone in the republic had a kind word to say about Cromwell.

His campaign may have wiped out anywhere from one out of ten to up to four out of ten of the population of Ireland. It is hard for any native person to justify a democide matched only by the regimes like those of Pol Pot.

 

[Cordelier]

I'm part Irish (County Wexford stock) and part English (West Country stock) in descent.... the only thing both branches of my family seem to be in agreement about is that Oliver Cromwell was a s***head.

 

[BitterPill]

I'm part Irish (County Wexford stock) and part English (West Country stock) in descent.... the only thing both branches of my family seem to be in agreement about is that Oliver Cromwell was a s***head.

In the end, even the English soured on Cromwell.

 

[Cordelier]

In the end, even the English soured on Cromwell.

Such is the fate of all thorough-going bastards.

 

[Rexedgar]

I am curious about what you learned about Oliver and would appreciate you sharing it, please?

The missus volunteers at our local library and she will bring home a few books or periodicals that she thinks may be of interest. A few week ago, there was a copy of MHQ, (Military history Quarterly,) it was from 2014. There were any number of articles that caught my eye.

The most memorable was a short piece on the rise of Oliver Cromwell. He was a cavalry leader and a superb tactician. He gained fame for his victories in the English Civil War. As his victories amassed, Cromwell was able to consolidate power and get the English seat of power as Lord Protector.

The parts that I found interesting was the fact that Cromwell skirmished through Ireland and had a hard-on for all things Catholic. This was in the middle of the 17th century. It sounds like the entire “ troubles”was hatched during this time. Catholic vs Protestant. I believe he is credited with the elevation of the Church of England.

Seems Cromwell did his best to wipe out Catholics in Ireland.

 

[Loulit01]

As I recall Cromwell put together a force called the New Army. I'm fuzzy on the details but I think it was a standing army that he himself trained in more modern methods.

 

[Rexedgar]

For context:

MHQ Table of Contents, Autumn 2014

Subscribe to MHQ: The Quarterly Journal of Military History today! The Autumn 2014 issue of MHQ goes on sale August 12, 2014. Visit the Historynet

www.historynet.com

 

[Loulit01]

For context:

MHQ Table of Contents, Autumn 2014

Subscribe to MHQ: The Quarterly Journal of Military History today! The Autumn 2014 issue of MHQ goes on sale August 12, 2014. Visit the Historynet

www.historynet.com

"New Model Army." I was close, but no panetela.

 

[PoS]

The funny thing about Cromwell was when he died, the English just went ahead and got another king. Its like all that war and dying was for nothing.

And I wouldnt credit Cromwell for how effective his New Model Army was, thats got to do more with Thomas Fairfax than him.

 

[Loulit01]

The funny thing about Cromwell was when he died, the English just went ahead and got another king. Its like all that war and dying was all for nothing.

And I wouldnt credit Cromwell for how effective his New Model Army was, thats got to do more with Thomas Fairfax than him.

Fairfax was appointed commander of that army by Cromwell, who preferred to play with the horsies.

 

[joluoto]

The funny thing about Cromwell was when he died, the English just went ahead and got another king. Its like all that war and dying was for nothing.

And I wouldnt credit Cromwell for how effective his New Model Army was, thats got to do more with Thomas Fairfax than him.

Well Cromwell was succeded by his son Richard, who basically was not able to keep the regime alive for even a year (because neither the army nor Parliament liked him). But Crowmell's whole republicanism was hypocritical when you consider he tried to establish a dynasty.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Pretty much everything that needs to be known about Oliver Cromwell has been put into a very easy to remember song.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The funny thing about Cromwell was when he died, the English just went ahead and got another king. Its like all that war and dying was for nothing.

And ultimately why we now have King Charles III.

 

[Oozlefinch]

As I recall Cromwell put together a force called the New Army. I'm fuzzy on the details but I think it was a standing army that he himself trained in more modern methods.

The "New Model Army".

And it was not so much "more modern methods", than it was that it was based not on peerage and geographical formations but a precursor to a "national army".

Prior to then, the militaries were all assembled and run by the peers. And as such, their leadership were generally members of the House of Lords, and could simply refuse to operate outside of their home areas. The peerage assembled their military at the request of the king, and if they refused to take part in an operation they simply stayed at home.

In the New Model army, the military forces were essentially raised "for the duration", and no members of either the House of Lords or the House of Commons were permitted to be in leadership positions.

They were also directly under the control of the Lord Protector, and not even Parliament could give them orders. This actually caused many to look upon the Lord Protector as yet another tyrant, who simply did not take up the mantle of king. Keeping even more power than Charles I, with none of the titles.

When Oliver Cromwell died, at times it appeared that it might even resort to another Civil War as several generals almost started fighting to determine who would remain in charge of the New Model Army. Especially when the Regiments from Scotland of General George Monck marched on London in 1659. That regiment actually still exists, and is known as the "Coldstream Guards".

 

[Red_Dave]

The funny thing about Cromwell was when he died, the English just went ahead and got another king. Its like all that war and dying was for nothing.

And I wouldnt credit Cromwell for how effective his New Model Army was, thats got to do more with Thomas Fairfax than him.

Cromwell was a monster but I´m not sure about the first part. The war set a precedent that the monarchy would only continue to exist as long as it was allowed to do so, and you can see the results in the various monarchs that have been deposed and installed by parliament since then. Not to mention the precedent it set for other parts of the world.

 

[Oozlefinch]

and you can see the results in the various monarchs that have been deposed and installed by parliament since then.

Actually, that only happened one other time. And he was not even deposed by Parliament but by essentially a military coup.

James II, the son of Charles I and brother of Charles II took the throne when Charles II died in 1685. However, the crown was barely on his head when he faced two rebellions, one by his nephew. However, these were both quickly crushed. However, his reign soon lost popularity when he both enlarged his standing army, started increasing powers to Catholics in the kingdom, and then tried to enact laws against Protestants. And when Parliament refused to pass the laws he simply dismissed them.

So he was never "deposed by Parliament", as there was none at the time.

For the next 3 years he ruled by fiat, but in 1688 when he reissued the Declaration of Indulgence and had a son born who was to be raised Catholic many saw that as a final straw. So several nobles got together in June and invited William of Orange from the Dutch Republic to become their new king. By December 1688 James II fled to France where he remained until he died in 1701.

That was the last kind deposed in England, the only one after Charles I and it was not by Parliament.

 

[PoS]

Cromwell was a monster but I´m not sure about the first part. The war set a precedent that the monarchy would only continue to exist as long as it was allowed to do so, and you can see the results in the various monarchs that have been deposed and installed by parliament since then. Not to mention the precedent it set for other parts of the world.

The Monarchy's absolute power was already in decline long before the civil war. The fact that King John was forced to ratify the Magna Carta had already spelled the waning of the king's authority hundreds of years prior. In fact Charles I could have ended the civil war if he wasnt so stupid and made a secret treaty with Scotland to reignite it.

 

[Decypher]

It would be difficult to think a bigger villain in Irish history, the name Cromwell is synonymous with English brutality. The Siege of Drogheda is best remembered for the massacre of soldiers and civilians once the town walls were breached but Cromwell and his army committed these atrocities all over the country. “To Hell or to Connaught” was his command to the Irish after he took all the land east of the Shannon. It was there the descendants of the dispossessed planted potatoes in the stony soil and they would bear the brunt of the famine two centuries later.

 

[Rexedgar]

It would be difficult to think a bigger villain in Irish history, the name Cromwell is synonymous with English brutality. The Siege of Drogheda is best remembered for the massacre of soldiers and civilians once the town walls were breached but Cromwell and his army committed these atrocities all over the country. “To Hell or to Connaught” was his command to the Irish after he took all the land east of the Shannon. It was there the descendants of the dispossessed planted potatoes in the stony soil and they would bear the brunt of the famine two centuries later.

I kinda had you in mind in the OP, took you long enough………..

 

[Decypher]

I kinda had you in mind in the OP, took you long enough………..

Didn’t see it until now! I did recognise myself in the OP. I could have written a lot more but it would have got a bit incoherent with anger.

 

[Decypher]

The missus volunteers at our local library and she will bring home a few books or periodicals that she thinks may be of interest. A few week ago, there was a copy of MHQ, (Military history Quarterly,) it was from 2014. There were any number of articles that caught my eye.

The most memorable was a short piece on the rise of Oliver Cromwell. He was a cavalry leader and a superb tactician. He gained fame for his victories in the English Civil War. As his victories amassed, Cromwell was able to consolidate power and get the English seat of power as Lord Protector.

The parts that I found interesting was the fact that Cromwell skirmished through Ireland and had a hard-on for all things Catholic. This was in the middle of the 17th century. It sounds like the entire “ troubles”was hatched during this time. Catholic vs Protestant. I believe he is credited with the elevation of the Church of England.

Seems Cromwell did his best to wipe out Catholics in Ireland.

Yes and no. Certainly Cromwell hated the Catholics but it was also the remaining Royalist forces who had retreated to Ireland that he was pursuing. The Irish Catholic Confederation has thrown their lot in with the Royalists and it could be argued that Cromwell wouldn’t have been so zealous in Ireland if it wasn’t for that alliance.

Lots of disaffected pretenders to the crown found support in Ireland over the centuries. When Elizabeth II died, my Dad joked that if this was 400 years ago, Harry would have been in Dublin raising an army.

No, it was when after the Restoration, Charles II’s Catholic son James II lost to William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne, that the seeds of The Troubles were sown. The Protestants of Ulster never forgot that victory. 1690 is as important a date to those guys as 1776 is to Americans. They talk about King Billy like he’s alive today.

 

[Rexedgar]

Yes and no. Certainly Cromwell hated the Catholics but it was also the remaining Royalist forces who had retreated to Ireland that he was pursuing. The Irish Catholic Confederation has thrown their lot in with the Royalists and it could be argued that Cromwell wouldn’t have been so zealous in Ireland if it wasn’t for that alliance.

Lots of disaffected pretenders to the crown found support in Ireland over the centuries. When Elizabeth II died, my Dad joked that if this was 400 years ago, Harry would have been in Dublin raising an army.

No, it was when after the Restoration, Charles II’s Catholic son James II lost to William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne, that the seeds of The Troubles were sown. The Protestants of Ulster never forgot that victory. 1690 is as important a date to those guys as 1776 is to Americans. They talk about King Billy like he’s alive today.

Thanks for the detailed reply. My knowledge of English/Irish history would try to fill the head of a pin. I remember visiting London, years ago, and seeing the statue outside of Westminster Abbey, (I think it was.) Then I ran across the article in the old periodical and it was an interesting read. Cheers!