Oklahoma School Cancels Bible Study, Morning Prayer Over PA System After Parents Push Back

[Chomsky]

Some see to think any question or challenge to their attempts to impose their beliefs on others is an attack.

FIFY.

Yep. That's the issue.

Amazing in the country how majorities can believe they're oppressed!

 

[Risky Thicket]

The U.S. Department of Education's Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer and Religious Expression in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools, May 15, 2023, offers some relevant information regarding the extent to which prayer in public schools is legally protected. The following included:

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials acting in their official capacities from directing or favoring prayer, students and teachers do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." The Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. For example, "nothing in the Constitution . . . prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the schoolday," and therefore students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other comparable conversations or activities. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious matters just as they may do with regard to, for example, political matters.

In a class in grad school during a test a student near me had her bible open on her desk. The professor told her to close it and put it away but she refused. He asked what passage she was reading and why it helped during the test. She blew her response. He picked the bible to read the passage and discovered answers to assist her response to questions on the test written in tiny print.

She was forced to withdraw from grad school.

 

[Gordy327]

The problem here is when a dominate religious segment oppresses minority segments.

I'm all for spirituality, including formal religious denominations. I believe it is enriching in our lives, and would like students to be aware of the various Faiths & Denominations, as well as their having the ability to learn & practice them if they so choose.

But it seems many of Faith are simply not able able to accept others of dislike Faiths, and want their personal Faith impressed upon others. I have no idea why this is so, but since it is - it seems not broadcasting a dominating Faith's prayers was the safest way to avoid domineering oppression.

It sounds as if religion in general is the problem, especially when brought into the government sphere.

As for me, I'd love it if the school let the kids of other Faiths lead a brief morning prayer time on a rotating basis. But would the dominate Christian segment allow that? Perhaps, not. Sadly. And to the kids' loss.

That too would be unconstitutional. The school allowing kids to lead a prayer is in effect endorsing prayer or religion.

 

[Gordy327]

The story also mentions Bible study which the reporter and our fellow commenters do not discuss. The DoE guidance indicates that study groups not led or taught by school employees as part of their employment is constitutionally permissible. Same goes for private prayer and discussion during school hours. Use of the PA system would be, as I've acknowledged, unconstitutional governmental speech.

Agreed.

 

[Gordy327]

Ok let's go over for the tenth time how the christian right isn't trying to push their religion on everyone else, unconstitutionally.

Only the tenth? It seems more like a hundred.

 

[Bodi]

From the article:

An Oklahoma school district has shut down morning prayers being broadcasted over the PA system at an elementary school after receiving criticism from parents.
Last month, parents discovered that Prague Elementary School had been sending students to Bible study and saying morning prayer over the school's PA system.
An anonymous parent told KFOR News that some students had been 'getting picked on or bullied' because they were not participating in the school-sanctioned religious activities.
"I went to the principal and told her that what they are doing is illegal," said the parent. "But they told me that because it is students technically leading it, it isn’t."
Prague Public School District eventually shut down the morning prayers and Bible study due to the backlash from parents. They released a statement saying the district "is dedicated to following the law and protecting the rights of every student to freely exercise his or her religion."
However, not everyone is happy with the decision. State Superintendent Ryan Walters posted a video on X where he vowed to "take a stand for our students’ freedom of religion, their freedom to express their religious beliefs."
Jeremy Telman, a law professor at Oklahoma City University, said that Walters was '100% incorrect' in claiming that any students' freedom to express their religious belief was under attack 'because the school isn’t allowing prayers over the intercom.'
"In fact, the rights of students of the other students were violated when the school was broadcasting those prayers," Telman explained to KFOR News.
According to the Oklahoman, the Freedom From Religion Foundation called for Walters' resignation.


Clearly this school was in the wrong and violating the Constitution. It's like I always say, the separation of church and state must always be absolute, absolutely!

That principal is going to get fired in record time. LOL What an idiot.

 

[Bodi]

The story also mentions Bible study which the reporter and our fellow commenters do not discuss. The DoE guidance indicates that study groups not led or taught by school employees as part of their employment is constitutionally permissible. Same goes for private prayer and discussion during school hours. Use of the PA system would be, as I've acknowledged, unconstitutional governmental speech.

This is not a case of some kids sitting out by a tree talking about the Bible. Using the PA system is not private and the PA is also sanctioned by the school, both illegal. The principal should be fired as well as anybody else that allowed or condones this.

 

[CaughtInThe]

This is the kind of thinking that's going to get Bibles banned in school libraries.

 

[Gordy327]

That principal is going to get fired in record time. LOL What an idiot.

Deservedly so too.

 

[beefheart]

Good! Keep religion out of public school.

 

[Gordy327]

Good! Keep religion out of public school.

As it should be.

 

[Along Came Jones]

This is not a case of some kids sitting out by a tree talking about the Bible. Using the PA system is not private and the PA is also sanctioned by the school, both illegal. The principal should be fired as well as anybody else that allowed or condones this.

For the third or fourth time, I've separated what is not permissible from what is permissible and provided a link to the Department of Education's guidance on the issue. ("Oklahoma School Cancels Bible Study, Morning Prayer Over PA System After Parents Push Back")

While morning prayers and Bible readings delivered via the PA system are unconstitutional governmental speech, individual or group prayers or Bible study in the cafeteria at lunch, during study halls, or during any period of student or employee "free time," would be permissible. The same constitutional permission would apply to the scriptural texts considered authoritative by any religion. And, proselytizing when expressed as discussion would also be protected, according to DoE guidelines.

 

[Bodi]

For the third or fourth time, I've separated what is not permissible from what is permissible and provided a link to the Department of Education's guidance on the issue. ("Oklahoma School Cancels Bible Study, Morning Prayer Over PA System After Parents Push Back")

While morning prayers and Bible readings delivered via the PA system are unconstitutional governmental speech, individual or group prayers or Bible study in the cafeteria at lunch, during study halls, or during any period of student or employee "free time," would be permissible. The same constitutional permission would apply to the scriptural texts considered authoritative by any religion. And, proselytizing when expressed as discussion would also be protected, according to DoE guidelines.

I did not disagree with you...

 

[Gordy327]

I wonder if anyone can defend the school's actions.

 

[Fearandloathing]

From the article:

An Oklahoma school district has shut down morning prayers being broadcasted over the PA system at an elementary school after receiving criticism from parents.
Last month, parents discovered that Prague Elementary School had been sending students to Bible study and saying morning prayer over the school's PA system.
An anonymous parent told KFOR News that some students had been 'getting picked on or bullied' because they were not participating in the school-sanctioned religious activities.
"I went to the principal and told her that what they are doing is illegal," said the parent. "But they told me that because it is students technically leading it, it isn’t."
Prague Public School District eventually shut down the morning prayers and Bible study due to the backlash from parents. They released a statement saying the district "is dedicated to following the law and protecting the rights of every student to freely exercise his or her religion."
However, not everyone is happy with the decision. State Superintendent Ryan Walters posted a video on X where he vowed to "take a stand for our students’ freedom of religion, their freedom to express their religious beliefs."
Jeremy Telman, a law professor at Oklahoma City University, said that Walters was '100% incorrect' in claiming that any students' freedom to express their religious belief was under attack 'because the school isn’t allowing prayers over the intercom.'
"In fact, the rights of students of the other students were violated when the school was broadcasting those prayers," Telman explained to KFOR News.
According to the Oklahoman, the Freedom From Religion Foundation called for Walters' resignation.


Clearly this school was in the wrong and violating the Constitution. It's like I always say, the separation of church and state must always be absolute, absolutely!

From my persepctive I don't see ANY separation between church and state. Witnesses swear on a Bible. That's not only church but choosing Christianity, forcing it on people.

"In God we trust" is all over the ****ing place! Including money!

Members of congress and elected officials swear oaths on a bible...again Christianity being forced on people.

So, please, someone show me where there is 'separation'?

There is 'freedom of religion" as long as you're Christian, who tolerate the larger religions.

What the founding fathers intended was that men, they specified men, had the freedom to practice the type of Christianity of their choosing so long as there was no midwifery or women's rights or shit like that.

They still prosecute Voodoo in New Orleans. Freedom of what again...?

 

[Fearandloathing]

For the third or fourth time, I've separated what is not permissible from what is permissible and provided a link to the Department of Education's guidance on the issue. ("Oklahoma School Cancels Bible Study, Morning Prayer Over PA System After Parents Push Back")

While morning prayers and Bible readings delivered via the PA system are unconstitutional governmental speech, individual or group prayers or Bible study in the cafeteria at lunch, during study halls, or during any period of student or employee "free time," would be permissible. The same constitutional permission would apply to the scriptural texts considered authoritative by any religion. And, proselytizing when expressed as discussion would also be protected, according to DoE guidelines.

But if I want to lead a prayer session to my god "Ass Hat" and get some voodoo shit happening in a mall I'd be arrested.....right?
I know, I slaughter one chicken in the name of Satan and I'm in front of a judge....

Freedom.......?

 

[Gordy327]

From my persepctive I don't see ANY separation between church and state. Witnesses swear on a Bible. That's not only church but choosing Christianity, forcing it on people.

"In God we trust" is all over the ****ing place! Including money!

Members of congress and elected officials swear oaths on a bible...again Christianity being forced on people.

So, please, someone show me where there is 'separation'?

There is 'freedom of religion" as long as you're Christian, who tolerate the larger religions.

What the founding fathers intended was that men, they specified men, had the freedom to practice the type of Christianity of their choosing so long as there was no midwifery or women's rights or shit like that.

They still prosecute Voodoo in New Orleans. Freedom of what again...?

Attempts to cross the line of separation always seem to be there and coming from theists. Good thing there's the FFRF to act as a vanguard in preventing that crossing.

 

[Bodecea]

From my persepctive I don't see ANY separation between church and state. Witnesses swear on a Bible. That's not only church but choosing Christianity, forcing it on people.

"In God we trust" is all over the ****ing place! Including money!

Members of congress and elected officials swear oaths on a bible...again Christianity being forced on people.

So, please, someone show me where there is 'separation'?

There is 'freedom of religion" as long as you're Christian, who tolerate the larger religions.

What the founding fathers intended was that men, they specified men, had the freedom to practice the type of Christianity of their choosing so long as there was no midwifery or women's rights or shit like that.

They still prosecute Voodoo in New Orleans. Freedom of what again...?

Two questions:
Are witnesses REQUIRED to swear on a bible? Yes or no?

Is money worth any less if "In God We Trust" isn't printed on it? Yes or no?

 

[Napoleon]

I read about this earlier. Is it true if the kids lesd the prayer (which is bullshit to begin with) it's constitutional? It's no longer about freedom of religion but being able to force your religion (Christianity for the most part) on others. Good for the parents sticking up to the christian nationalists.

The only thing that would be unlawful here is if the school was requiring people to participate. And that doesn’t seem to be the case. In fact, the complaint from parents was that kids were bullied by their peers for not participating.

 

[Bodecea]

The only thing that would be unlawful here is if the school was requiring people to participate. And that doesn’t seem to be the case. In fact, the complaint from parents was that kids were bullied by their peers for not participating.

Which is what christians do....they bully people who don't do what they want.

 

[Gordy327]

The only thing that would be unlawful here is if the school was requiring people to participate. And that doesn’t seem to be the case.

The school PA is being used to broadcast religious practices. That is crossing the line. That and the school was sending kids to bible study.

In fact, the complaint from parents was that kids were bullied by their peers for not participating.

Another reason why it should not have been allowed. It effectively singled out certain students.

 

[Gordy327]

Which is what christians do....they bully people who don't do what they want.

Which says a lot about so called christians.

 

[Napoleon]

The school PA is being used to broadcast religious practices. That is crossing the line. That and the school was sending kids to bible study.

Another reason why it should not have been allowed. It effectively singled out certain students.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that religious expression isn’t allowed in public schools. See the numerous SCOTUS decisions on the subject.

 

[Gordy327]

But if I want to lead a prayer session to my god "Ass Hat" and get some voodoo shit happening in a mall I'd be arrested.....right?

That might depend on the circumstances. A mall is not public property and has an owner. So they could forbid it. Another might be if said prayer services cause a public commotion or disturbance.

I know, I slaughter one chicken in the name of Satan and I'm in front of a judge....

There are laws against animal cruelty.

Freedom.......?

Yes. But religious expression has limits. Religious belief does not.

 

[Along Came Jones]

But if I want to lead a prayer session to my god "Ass Hat" and get some voodoo shit happening in a mall I'd be arrested.....right?
I know, I slaughter one chicken in the name of Satan and I'm in front of a judge....

Freedom.......?

I suppose what we're permitted to do at the malls is pretty much proscribed by what the property owners allow and what local ordinances permit on private property. Around here animal sacrifice likely gets you arrested and charged with "cruelty to non-livestock animals." Now a human sacrifice would certainly up the charge to murder. Freedom is never completely free, is it?