Okham's Razor

[shiang]

You might be right but given that has been explained to her several times and she continues to make the same claim I have to believe she hasn't a clue.

and yes some people can pay a total tax bill near 50% if they live in a state with its own high income tax

and if you figure death taxes into the mix some people will have paid 50% or more total taxes over the course of a lifetime

Lowest to Highest Taxes by State (Modern Survival Blog)

State Income Tax Rates - Highest Tax Rates for Each State

I may have misread your post and thought I was on the first page and quoted out of context.

I know the current highest National tax bracket is about 35%, highest State income tax is Hawaii and Oregon at 11%. So no one can possibly pay over 45% as of now on income. The highest sales tax is 11.5% from Illinois but they somehow have a 3% flat income tax, no idea how that works seems like they're taxing the poor MORE than the rich as sales tax is a regressive tax. The highest state effective tax is probably California at 10.55% income tax, and 10.8% sales tax. The proposed expiration of tax cuts for people making over 200k brings the top bracket of 388k+ or something around there to 39% and corporate gains from 15 to 20%. I suppose thats where Ryan got his close to 50% number, but realistically a good analogy for someone playing that much is like someone paying sticker price for a car. In addition this only affects non-business related work earning over 400k a year, such as neurosurgeons and top lawyers (or two high income professionals in the same household). Both of which are smart enough to figure out their tax returns or hire someone to do it for them. Only reason they wouldn't take any of the deductions would be if they didn't care for the money in the first place and would likely put it in a bank, not really helping the economy.

 

[cpwill]

Well ...do you want join us in the loft for the verification. JD are easy to verify ... are you ready to do ...as i am to a trusted source like vauge including the likelihood your income is in the millions?

To the loft with vauge if he agrees for verification?

Madam, I would be interested in seeing the mathematical equivalent of pigs flying in any forum.

 

[TurtleDude]

Lowest to Highest Taxes by State (Modern Survival Blog)

State Income Tax Rates - Highest Tax Rates for Each State

I may have misread your post and thought I was on the first page and quoted out of context.

I know the current highest National tax bracket is about 35%, highest State tax is california at 10.55%. So no one can possibly pay over 45% as of now. The proposed expiration of tax cuts for people making over 200k brings the top bracket of 388k+ or something around there to 39% and corporate gains from 15 to 20%. I suppose thats where Ryan got his close to 50% number, but realistically a good analogy for someone playing that much is like someone paying sticker price for a car. In addition this only effects non-business related work earning over 400k a year, such as neurosurgeons and top lawyers. Both of which are smart enough to figure out their tax returns or hire someone to do it for them. Only reason they wouldn't take any of the deductions would be if they didn't care for the money in the first place and would likely put it in a bank, not really helping the economy.

You forgot to add property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, car registration taxes, hotel taxes, Robinson-Pittman excise taxes. etc etc and of course the death tax which could take almost 50% of what you had left after you died

 

[Turin]

I did not say an effective rate and I certainly know very we'll the difference. I stated I pay 33% of income in federal taxes. I have a salary from a FT professional position and a private consulting business.

Does Federal Tax Include Social Security & Medicare? | eHow.com


My marginal rate is higher than 33%.

Now, I was challenged to prove my degree and I agreed with vauge as verifier as I trust him for confidential data. Turtledude ... Are you willing to do the same with your JD? You are quick to make allegations I am lying and CPWill wants numbers and proof of a degree.

I am also willing to explain my 3 sources of income and no! unlike you claim ...I definitely do not earn millions. Can you back up your claims of having a JD and earning millions? I have no problems verifying with my statements.

I pay quarterly taxes and I know exactly what I am paying and on what income and if I was running for POTUS I would have nothing to hide by releasing my income taxes for the past 15 years.

TD ... you have been boasting of millions and a JD for years ... I was called a liar based on my modest 6 figure salary and licensure that can easily be verified. Are you willing to have vauge verify your JD. That only takes a moment ... just as my license only takes a moment to verify!

Lets go ... I am awaiting the original challenger who offered an apology ... if instead we make a donation to DP if I can verify? Are you up for the same challenge?

Seriously ... if you want to call liar and I am willing ... are you?

CPwill and Turtledude proof? ...with a donation to DP for the one who is determined dishonest?

If you have a consulting job on the side and are paying a 33% rate, then you are doing it wrong.
Hire an accountant and learn what deductions you have.

I am using all my deductions and had an outlier year related to a research project i concluded. It is not a consulting job ... it is my own PLLC.

I paid 33% of total income to the feds and was including FICA ... my income and profession was called out as a liar and I offered verification if turtle dude joins in with vague as the trusted person to verify. TD has jumped all over the deflection of marginal v. effective yet that was not how it originated or what I said. It really was just an offhand reply as I have no reason to lie about myself on a forum. My words are part of me and I do not fabricate even on an anonymous forum.

I offered to let vauge determine if TD was a JD as he often claims and verify my licensure as well ...with anyone being dishonest making a donation to DP. I had mentioned an undergrad degree in science and a more modest income then the millions TD claims he earns as a JD.

I made a general statement in reply to one Romney had made regarding taxes paid and that was how this discussion went down this rabbit hole. I was then challenged by several on my profession and income. shrugs ... I invited them to the loft with vague to verify. It seems Turtledude makes lofty claims yet keeps deflecting about effective v. marginal taxes when that was not even the discussion. He is has been told 4 times it was not an effective tax rate yet I guess my willingness to be transparent and invite him to do the same inspired his need to bury the posts.

she is lying or mistaken or just ignorant.

to pay an effective rate of 33% you have to have an earned income of at least several hundred thousand dollars.

she is probably combining FICA which is not the federal income tax in order to make that claim.

what is really funny is that we have some left leaners on this board who pretend to be experts in tax issues and they never seem to post when liberals make clearly wrong claims about the taxes.

Turtledude ... I have told you 4 times I was not referencing an effective rate and I was willing to verify the details and my professional licensure with vague.

Are you up for the challenge on your JD and multi millions you claim to earn or are you burying the post of mine I quoted above by deflecting the discussion.

 

[shiang]

You forgot to add property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, car registration taxes, hotel taxes, Robinson-Pittman excise taxes. etc etc and of course the death tax which could take almost 50% of what you had left after you died

Bad habit of doing a skeleton then editing. Added sales tax but yes I understand, after your income tax you have to pay tax for what you buy and especially luxury and import goods due to tariffs (I know it's not an actual tax, but the hike in prices is a cut our government takes and is effectively a tax).

However, those taxes are not really the flat rate posted, especially for higher income people. Take sales tax for example, for simplicity lets use 10%, a poor person might spend all their money buying basic necessities and pay the full 10%. A wealthy person might only spend 10% of their earnings and invest/bank the rest paying an effective 1% sales tax. Bottom line is if people do their taxes right no one should be paying remotely close to 50% taxes ...if you don't count what you inherit from the dead. Correct me if I'm wrong but the "death tax" is really a tax on the transfer of estate after a death.

 

[Turin]

Madam, I would be interested in seeing the mathematical equivalent of pigs flying in any forum.

Epic fail! ; )

Strange cpwill when I offered to allow vauge to verify what you called out as a lie (degree and income) you spout gibberish like this! ; )

Even funnier ... turtleDUDE jumps in claiming to be a JD making multimillions joins in calling me a liar. I transparently offer to let vague verify my professional license and to verify TD claim of being a JD with any dishonesty by either of us being a 50 $ donation to DP and TD runs down a rabbit hole of twisting my original statement that I said an effective rate.

Oh btw .. TD ... the verification only takes a moment online and I trust vague with that information. It simply takes a first and last name for a JD or a healthcare professional?

Let me know if you change your mind?

 

[Turin]

Bad habit of doing a skeleton then editing. Added sales tax but yes I understand, after your income tax you have to pay tax for what you buy and especially luxury and import goods due to tariffs (I know it's not an actual tax, but the hike in prices is a cut our government takes and is effectively a tax).

However, those taxes are not really the flat rate posted, especially for higher income people. Take sales tax for example, for simplicity lets use 10%, a poor person might spend all their money buying basic necessities and pay the full 10%. A wealthy person might only spend 10% of their earnings and invest/bank the rest paying an effective 1% sales tax. Bottom line is if people do their taxes right no one should be paying remotely close to 50% taxes ...if you don't count what you inherit from the dead. Correct me if I'm wrong but the "death tax" is really a tax on the transfer of estate after a death.

I was only referencing what I pay the feds total ... if I started adding in property and state taxes etc it would be over 40%. I reside in a state with no sales tax.

Shiang you got tangled in a feud where TD was burying the mess he made for himself by calling me a liar and then claiming to be a JD earning multi millions.

I offered to let the owner verify each of our professional license for a fun penalty of fifty bucks donation to DP for either of us who could not verify and the turtledude has now been trying to dogpile the thread.

; )

 

[shiang]

I was only referencing what I pay the feds total ... if I started adding in property and state taxes etc it would be over 40%. I reside in a state with no sales tax.

Shiang you got tangled in a feud where TD was burying the mess he made for himself by calling me a liar and then claiming to be a JD earning multi millions.

I offered to let the owner verify each of our professional license for a fun penalty of fifty bucks donation to DP for either of us who could not verify and the turtledude has now been trying to dogpile the thread.

; )

oh lolz. I'm rather trusting and I assumed turtle made millions a year, not that easily impressed either you see .

 

[Turin]

oh lolz. I'm rather trusting and I assumed turtle made millions a year, not that easily impressed either you see .

I am not impressed by income either and I hope for TD sake he is a JD making millions and not posing as such on forum. I only offered the challenge when he started shouting liar. Otherwise I would never have offered up such an oppportunity for him.

It only came up in reference to Romney's tax returns.

I thought the challenge was kind of fun as the penalty would be a DP donation. vauge is trustworthy and I have used my debit card for donations so my first and last name would verify my professional reference and it would then make sense.

 

[shiang]

were you even voting when Bush was in office? what experience did you have as say a business owner, a manager or a taxpayer under Bush? That is as moronic a statement as saying its a choice between Romney and carter. In reality we have a guy who is a proven success in most everything he has done competing against a guy who didn't do much of anything notable before he became president and then has been a failure at that

Have you really read up on the details of what Romney did as CEO of Bain? He's got a proven record of essentially theft.

Watered down ingredients of Dominos - to stuff his pockets and his investor's pockets
Changed Sealy HQ from Cleveland (where the company prospered for over 80 years) to North Carolina and cut the quality of their mattress - to stuff his pockets and his investor's pockets
Alliance Laundry Systems - I assume is the reference of the Obama add on "pioneer of outsourcing" company. Though I'm not strongly against outsourcing of low level manufacturing jobs. Again - to stuff his pockets and his investor's pockets.
Toys R' Us - not under Romney now but reflects Romney's legacy, the company has seen zero growth in stores and it's not a stretch to say it's in decline.
Staples was acquired and managed primarily under Baine not Romney

These are most of the major household names, there are many other companies not listed. Though some of them did well like sports authority and BK, the vast majority either declined under Romney's Bain, or ended with the letters b a n c k r u p c y. Almost all the profits are from costs cuts and very little from company growth.

Not only does he not have a good record. His record is the number two reason I'm not voting for him. The number one reason is something almost identical to his proposed policies almost lead us to depression. His gafs and elitist personality is just a kicker.

If making yourself wealthy = succes, then I agree
If making the world a better place = success, then I'll have to argue otherwise.

 

[The Barbarian]

Umemployment has dropped from 10.2% to 7.8%
The stock market has almost doubled.
5 million private sector jobs have been created since 2009.
GDP has been growing since 2009.
Americans net worth is up $10 trillion dollars since 2009.
Auto sales are up. Retail sales are up. Home sales are up.
Bin Laden is dead, and GM is alive.
Millions are able to buy private healthcare policies and millions have the security they will not be dropped in the event of a preexisting condition.
The US needs to continue climbing its way out and I like the contrast from 2008 when the economy crashed.
Romney has all the same people lined up as advisors as BuCheney when they spent on war profiteering and cut taxes on the wealthy and gave a windfall of billions to BigPharma that we could not afford.

Do we need to get better ... yes.

Obama-Biden 2012 Forward

-Unemployment has dropped from 10.2% to 7.8%

This is just a bit misleading, when President Obama took over, unemployment was @ 7.8% 10.2% was at the very bottom of the recession. The reality is that after nearly 4 years we have an unemployment rate that is identical. This is after spending 750 billion dollars that was in Obama’s own words needed to keep unemployment from rising above 8% I don’t see 750 b million spent to keep unemployment down, and 43 months later having the exact same unemployment as anything near a success.

The stock market has almost doubled.

It has, and did so under the Obama term, I have reservations as to why it has grown, but that really doesn’t matter. Obama gets kudos for that

5 million private sector jobs created since 2009

Not a record to be proud of by any means, that figure has not even kept up with population growth , and the over all income of every tax bracket is lower then when he took office. So the jobs can’t be what this country needs or that income figure would be growing not shrinking.

GDP has been growing since 2009

This is not a false statement, but the growth as been anemic and it’s getting worse, not better . Again not a trend that is good for this country.

American’s net worth is up 10 trillion dollars since 2009

This I would need some links to, I’m not saying it’s wrong, but with the housing prices still in the toilet, incomes down, and unemployment the same as it was in 2009 I just find it hard to believe.

Auto sales are up, retail sales are up, home sales are up

Again this is a very misleading statement, are they up from last year ? Probably, but are they up from January of 2009 I don’t think so. See you can’t pick your numbers, a presidents term starts when he takes office

Bin Laden is dead, and GM is alive.

Again kudos for Bin laden, that happened under this President’s watch … and he should get the credit for it.
GM being alive … that was never in question, GM was never going to die, they would have gone bankrupted and emerged from that, and in my opinion would have been as well off or better off then they are now. Anyone thinking or saying that GM would be dead if not for Obama is just not thinking clearly.

Millions are able to buy private healthcare policies, and millions have the security that they will not be dropped for pre-existing conditions

Again highly untrue, why are millions able to buy private healthcare polices now? Since the passage of the health care act private healthcare polices have risen in price an average of $2,500 dollars while an average American’s income has dropped nearly $3,000 a family So someone is going to have to show and explain to me why they think that millions of people can now afford private health care polices that couldn’t afford them before.

Now to the security of not people cannot be dropped because of pre existing conditions, I happen to agree that is a good thing, and something that was needed .

Overall, I don’t see the results that are needed to get this country going again. I don’t like the class divide that Obama has put forth, we need the upper 5% of this country as well as the middle class. Lets not forget, that those upper 5% pay 65% of the bills of this country, that is a very simple “fact” Now I’m not getting into if it should be more or not that is for another thread, but you can’t deny what they presently pay … where would be with out them ??

As for Romney, I’m sorry to tell you, but he is not Bush, Bush has been out of office for nearly 4 years he is no longer relevant to government. Regardless of what you think, Romney is a very successful businessman he knows what we need to do to create jobs, he also seems very capable of balancing a budget, by cutting costs and raising revenue. This country need to get our budget under control, needs to stop adding trillions to our debt and needs to get good paying jobs back … My vote goes to the Romney/Ryan ticket because he has been successful in business, and because of his experience.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Romney and Bush are two different people. The only thing they share in common is that they are both Republicans.

Romney was a successful business man, a successful governor, what makes you think he couldn't be a successful president?

False reasoning, it implies if things aren't as good as they should be Romney would've made them better. With his record of greed and shortsightedness in Baine I find that hard to believe.

Bottom line is simple you have two choices Obama's policies and Bushes, don't even pretend Romney's brought anything really new to the Republican ballot. Record shows Bush/Romney's policies are terrible in the long run and Obama's are better. Growing slow is better than collapsing. Truth is simple, for today's world Democrat's ideology and policies might not be perfect, but the Republican set of values and policies are a disaster. For Republicans, come back next time with fresh new ideas and a new set of values, don't tweak, change. If it is logically better than the Democrat's platform they'll get to run the country.

 

[Turin]

I do not have time to reply to your entire post yet you gave it a fair conversation and I appreciate that.

Regarding healthcare ... healthcare inflation has skyrocketed for years and your cost increase reflect many components including Big Pharma, technology etc.

Now listen carefully ...The ACA was watered down so much that the defining component that would have added competition and lowered the cost of insurance was hacked out of it ... the public option. That was the doing of the republicans and the moneyed interests in private insurance lobbyists!

Private companies could not stand the thought of public option competition as they had a monopoly and had essentially written the legislation for years by buying off republicans in congress.

There wa sno such thing as death panels ...private companies say no to care far more often than any medicare plan.

Now ... millions with pre existing conditions and children of parents under the age of 26 are privately insured as it is now against the law to drop them. I have witnessed the evilness of the private companies that make it impossible to renew once a patient is diagnosed with a medical condition.

Those privately insured patients would have ended up on the tax payers dime.

You are so misguided on the healthcare aspect ... yet I must go to sleep.

Thank you for your post. You did make some good points otherwise.

 

[Mr.Nick]

-Unemployment has dropped from 10.2% to 7.8%

This is just a bit misleading, when President Obama took over, unemployment was @ 7.8% 10.2% was at the very bottom of the recession. The reality is that after nearly 4 years we have an unemployment rate that is identical. This is after spending 750 billion dollars that was in Obama’s own words needed to keep unemployment from rising above 8% I don’t see 750 b million spent to keep unemployment down, and 43 months later having the exact same unemployment as anything near a success.

The stock market has almost doubled.

It has, and did so under the Obama term, I have reservations as to why it has grown, but that really doesn’t matter. Obama gets kudos for that

5 million private sector jobs created since 2009

Not a record to be proud of by any means, that figure has not even kept up with population growth , and the over all income of every tax bracket is lower then when he took office. So the jobs can’t be what this country needs or that income figure would be growing not shrinking.

GDP has been growing since 2009

This is not a false statement, but the growth as been anemic and it’s getting worse, not better . Again not a trend that is good for this country.

American’s net worth is up 10 trillion dollars since 2009

This I would need some links to, I’m not saying it’s wrong, but with the housing prices still in the toilet, incomes down, and unemployment the same as it was in 2009 I just find it hard to believe.

Auto sales are up, retail sales are up, home sales are up

Again this is a very misleading statement, are they up from last year ? Probably, but are they up from January of 2009 I don’t think so. See you can’t pick your numbers, a presidents term starts when he takes office

Bin Laden is dead, and GM is alive.

Again kudos for Bin laden, that happened under this President’s watch … and he should get the credit for it.
GM being alive … that was never in question, GM was never going to die, they would have gone bankrupted and emerged from that, and in my opinion would have been as well off or better off then they are now. Anyone thinking or saying that GM would be dead if not for Obama is just not thinking clearly.

Millions are able to buy private healthcare policies, and millions have the security that they will not be dropped for pre-existing conditions

Again highly untrue, why are millions able to buy private healthcare polices now? Since the passage of the health care act private healthcare polices have risen in price an average of $2,500 dollars while an average American’s income has dropped nearly $3,000 a family So someone is going to have to show and explain to me why they think that millions of people can now afford private health care polices that couldn’t afford them before.

Now to the security of not people cannot be dropped because of pre existing conditions, I happen to agree that is a good thing, and something that was needed .

Overall, I don’t see the results that are needed to get this country going again. I don’t like the class divide that Obama has put forth, we need the upper 5% of this country as well as the middle class. Lets not forget, that those upper 5% pay 65% of the bills of this country, that is a very simple “fact” Now I’m not getting into if it should be more or not that is for another thread, but you can’t deny what they presently pay … where would be with out them ??

As for Romney, I’m sorry to tell you, but he is not Bush, Bush has been out of office for nearly 4 years he is no longer relevant to government. Regardless of what you think, Romney is a very successful businessman he knows what we need to do to create jobs, he also seems very capable of balancing a budget, by cutting costs and raising revenue. This country need to get our budget under control, needs to stop adding trillions to our debt and needs to get good paying jobs back … My vote goes to the Romney/Ryan ticket because he has been successful in business, and because of his experience.

Unemployment is shrinking because the job market is shrinking..

Yes the numbers are absolutely misleading..... That, mixed with the blatant deception angers me - Obama is knowingly lying to the public....

Anyone who lives on planet earth - or at least in the US - knows that unemployment is NOT 7.8..... Hell, my local mini-mall is 1/3rd occupied, and those that are there are national chain stores... The only small businesses that exist around here are pawn shops and dry cleaners... Everything else is gone.....

I don't but those numbers when I live in a town of at least 30k that is nothing but a town that extends to Chicago - this is a highly populated area.... My county has to have at least 1,000,000 residents if not way more, yet all I see are empty buildings - yeah 7.8% my ass - anyone who buys that 7.8% is brainwashed..

 

[shiang]

Unemployment is shrinking because the job market is shrinking..

Yes the numbers are absolutely misleading..... That, mixed with the blatant deception angers me - Obama is knowingly lying to the public....

Anyone who lives on planet earth - or at least in the US - knows that unemployment is NOT 7.8..... Hell, my local mini-mall is 1/3rd occupied, and those that are there are national chain stores... The only small businesses that exist around here are pawn shops and dry cleaners... Everything else is gone.....

I don't but those numbers when I live in a town of at least 30k that is nothing but a town that extends to Chicago - this is a highly populated area.... My county has to have at least 1,000,000 residents if not way more, yet all I see are empty buildings - yeah 7.8% my ass - anyone who buys that 7.8% is brainwashed..

Some neighborhoods are still struggling from the failed Bush Policies, I understand I've seen them. But other parts are doing better, and overall we're much better off then we were four years ago.

 

[shiang]

-Unemployment has dropped from 10.2% to 7.8%

This is just a bit misleading, when President Obama took over, unemployment was @ 7.8% 10.2% was at the very bottom of the recession. The reality is that after nearly 4 years we have an unemployment rate that is identical. This is after spending 750 billion dollars that was in Obama’s own words needed to keep unemployment from rising above 8% I don’t see 750 b million spent to keep unemployment down, and 43 months later having the exact same unemployment as anything near a success.

The stock market has almost doubled.

It has, and did so under the Obama term, I have reservations as to why it has grown, but that really doesn’t matter. Obama gets kudos for that

5 million private sector jobs created since 2009

Not a record to be proud of by any means, that figure has not even kept up with population growth , and the over all income of every tax bracket is lower then when he took office. So the jobs can’t be what this country needs or that income figure would be growing not shrinking.

GDP has been growing since 2009

This is not a false statement, but the growth as been anemic and it’s getting worse, not better . Again not a trend that is good for this country.

American’s net worth is up 10 trillion dollars since 2009

This I would need some links to, I’m not saying it’s wrong, but with the housing prices still in the toilet, incomes down, and unemployment the same as it was in 2009 I just find it hard to believe.

Auto sales are up, retail sales are up, home sales are up

Again this is a very misleading statement, are they up from last year ? Probably, but are they up from January of 2009 I don’t think so. See you can’t pick your numbers, a presidents term starts when he takes office

Bin Laden is dead, and GM is alive.

Again kudos for Bin laden, that happened under this President’s watch … and he should get the credit for it.
GM being alive … that was never in question, GM was never going to die, they would have gone bankrupted and emerged from that, and in my opinion would have been as well off or better off then they are now. Anyone thinking or saying that GM would be dead if not for Obama is just not thinking clearly.

Millions are able to buy private healthcare policies, and millions have the security that they will not be dropped for pre-existing conditions

Again highly untrue, why are millions able to buy private healthcare polices now? Since the passage of the health care act private healthcare polices have risen in price an average of $2,500 dollars while an average American’s income has dropped nearly $3,000 a family So someone is going to have to show and explain to me why they think that millions of people can now afford private health care polices that couldn’t afford them before.

Now to the security of not people cannot be dropped because of pre existing conditions, I happen to agree that is a good thing, and something that was needed .

Overall, I don’t see the results that are needed to get this country going again. I don’t like the class divide that Obama has put forth, we need the upper 5% of this country as well as the middle class. Lets not forget, that those upper 5% pay 65% of the bills of this country, that is a very simple “fact” Now I’m not getting into if it should be more or not that is for another thread, but you can’t deny what they presently pay … where would be with out them ??

As for Romney, I’m sorry to tell you, but he is not Bush, Bush has been out of office for nearly 4 years he is no longer relevant to government. Regardless of what you think, Romney is a very successful businessman he knows what we need to do to create jobs, he also seems very capable of balancing a budget, by cutting costs and raising revenue. This country need to get our budget under control, needs to stop adding trillions to our debt and needs to get good paying jobs back … My vote goes to the Romney/Ryan ticket because he has been successful in business, and because of his experience.

Short term policies take a year or two to take effect, laws and spending takes times to write and pass, once passed they take time to implement and enforce, once enforced they take time to take effect. You can't count what happened in 2009 against Obama, that gets credited to Bush. The economy was collapsing well before Obama took office, there's nothing he could've done to immediately stop the decline. You can slam on the breaks but the car won't instantly stop. The change in trend I think was obvious starting late 2009 and though 2010.

If you wish to argue that way I can also say the economy was likely headed into a depression and accredit the difference between the current bottom and a would be depression bottom to Obama.

Difference between Obama and Bush's handling of the recessions they inherited is Obama acted immediately, inaugurated on Jan passed the stimulus in February. Bush did little about the collapse of the high tech industry of 2010 and acted very slowly.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Some neighborhoods are still struggling from the failed Bush Policies, I understand I've seen them. But other parts are doing better, and overall we're much better off then we were four years ago.

You don't know anything about economics.... Bush had nothing to do with this and the CRA amendments under Clinton (and passed by republicans) did.

Bush actually realized this and it was a major concern towards 2008 - as a matter of fact Barney Frank asserted that Bush was a bigot for attempting to do something about this problem.... Guess what? when you allow thieves (thats what they are) to have the right to abuse credit then our present reality is what you're going to get.

Blaming Bush is absolutely unfair..... As a libertarian Bush did a lot of things I didn't like, such as the Patriot Act, however I know where the first domino fell when it comes to this economic collapse and it didn't fall under Bush - Bush never made credit a right - Bush never allowed those people who abused that right of credit for a home to borrow against their homes which they did not own - homes the bank owned...

I believe in giving credit where credit is due - well, Bill Clinton and the republican house and senate get responsibility for this one..... The best part of it all was that it was a trade of votes that got this present economy passed.... It's certainly a complicated issue and theory or actually fact, however It would take a book to explain the blame, and quite frankly I'm shocked there aren't....

 

[iguanaman]

You don't know anything about economics.... Bush had nothing to do with this and the CRA amendments under Clinton (and passed by republicans) did.

Bush actually realized this and it was a major concern towards 2008 - as a matter of fact Barney Frank asserted that Bush was a bigot for attempting to do something about this problem.... Guess what? when you allow thieves (thats what they are) to have the right to abuse credit then our present reality is what you're going to get.

Blaming Bush is absolutely unfair..... As a libertarian Bush did a lot of things I didn't like, such as the Patriot Act, however I know where the first domino fell when it comes to this economic collapse and it didn't fall under Bush - Bush never made credit a right - Bush never allowed those people who abused that right of credit for a home to borrow against their homes which they did not own - homes the bank owned...

I believe in giving credit where credit is due - well, Bill Clinton and the republican house and senate get responsibility for this one..... The best part of it all was that it was a trade of votes that got this present economy passed.... It's certainly a complicated issue and theory or actually fact, however It would take a book to explain the blame, and quite frankly I'm shocked there aren't....

You will be shocked to learn that GW Bush sold $440 Billion of the banks subprime garbage to Fannie Mae in 2002. The Housing bubble started and ended completly under GOP control in Washington.
Barney Franks had no way of influencing Govt. policy while Republican had control of both Houses, it's so amusing to hear him blamed for it.

Fannie and Freddie were just another investor for the banks to swindle. GW Bush himself turned bankers shill and boasted that he got Fannie to commit to 440 Billion $ to buy the new subprimes in his 2002 "Minority Housing Initiative Program." He even evoked 911 and promised that the plan would "turn incredible evil into incredible good," I swear, I'm not making that up. Heres the bit about Fannie in 2002

And so, therefore, I've called -- yesterday, I called upon the private sector to help us and help the home buyers. We need more capital in the private markets for first-time, low-income buyers. And I'm proud to report that Fannie Mae has heard the call and, as I understand, it's about $440 billion over a period of time. They've used their influence to create that much capital available for the type of home buyer we're talking about here. It's in their charter; it now needs to be implemented. Freddie Mac is interested in helping. I appreciate both of those agencies providing the underpinnings of good capital.

HUD Archives: President George W. Bush Speaks to HUD Employees on National Homeownership Month (6/18/02)

Can you believe he actually said "It's in their charter, it NOW needs to be implemented"? If you know why?, it all will make sense. Anyway there's plenty more, but I fear your brain might explode.

 

[The Barbarian]

Short term policies take a year or two to take effect, laws and spending takes times to write and pass, once passed they take time to implement and enforce, once enforced they take time to take effect. You can't count what happened in 2009 against Obama, that gets credited to Bush. The economy was collapsing well before Obama took office, there's nothing he could've done to immediately stop the decline. You can slam on the breaks but the car won't instantly stop. The change in trend I think was obvious starting late 2009 and though 2010.

If you wish to argue that way I can also say the economy was likely headed into a depression and accredit the difference between the current bottom and a would be depression bottom to Obama.

Difference between Obama and Bush's handling of the recessions they inherited is Obama acted immediately, inaugurated on Jan passed the stimulus in February. Bush did little about the collapse of the high tech industry of 2010 and acted very slowly.

If you wish to argue that way I can also say the economy was likely headed into a depression and accredit the difference between the current bottom and a would be depression bottom to Obama.

*lol* yeah you could, and I could come right back with.... If McCain had been elected we would be better off today then what we are ... to argue a point that didn't happen is just asinine.


Difference between Obama and Bush's handling of the recessions they inherited is Obama acted immediately, inaugurated on Jan passed the stimulus in February. Bush did little about the collapse of the high tech industry of 2010 and acted very slowly.

Again .. and again ... and again .. Bush is not relevant to this discussion, start a thread as to was Bush a good/bad president.... he hasn't been in office for nearly 4 years let alone worrying about what he did or didn't do with the dot com bubble. Obama is president, if you are on the left ... you opinion is that we are doing great ... and that's fine everyone is entitled to an opinion, you aren't entitled to change the facts.

I never said we weren't moving in the right direction, we are .. it's just been at a snails pace and I'm not satisfied with that. Every recession we have had since the great depression has only averaged about 18 months to come out of strongly ... this one has lingered for over 4 years, and we are just now beginning to show a tiny improvement. Again just so we are clear... you have your right to think that is good enough .. I won't argue that point with anyone. But I have the right to feel that it's not enough and want more .. nuff said.

 

[Mr.Nick]

You will be shocked to learn that GW Bush sold $440 Billion of the banks subprime garbage to Fannie Mae in 2002. The Housing bubble started and ended completly under GOP control in Washington.
Barney Franks had no way of influencing Govt. policy while Republican had control of both Houses, it's so amusing to hear him blamed for it.

Fannie and Freddie were just another investor for the banks to swindle. GW Bush himself turned bankers shill and boasted that he got Fannie to commit to 440 Billion $ to buy the new subprimes in his 2002 "Minority Housing Initiative Program." He even evoked 911 and promised that the plan would "turn incredible evil into incredible good," I swear, I'm not making that up. Heres the bit about Fannie in 2002


HUD Archives: President George W. Bush Speaks to HUD Employees on National Homeownership Month (6/18/02)

Can you believe he actually said "It's in their charter, it NOW needs to be implemented"? If you know why?, it all will make sense. Anyway there's plenty more, but I fear your brain might explode.

You don't understand do you?

Find patient #1 or the first domino.... You're talking about issues as that resulted in an economic a collapse.

Instead of pointing fingers maybe you should investigate and do some research and find that first domino or patient #1.

 

[TurtleDude]

I am using all my deductions and had an outlier year related to a research project i concluded. It is not a consulting job ... it is my own PLLC.

I paid 33% of total income to the feds and was including FICA ... my income and profession was called out as a liar and I offered verification if turtle dude joins in with vague as the trusted person to verify. TD has jumped all over the deflection of marginal v. effective yet that was not how it originated or what I said. It really was just an offhand reply as I have no reason to lie about myself on a forum. My words are part of me and I do not fabricate even on an anonymous forum.

I offered to let vauge determine if TD was a JD as he often claims and verify my licensure as well ...with anyone being dishonest making a donation to DP. I had mentioned an undergrad degree in science and a more modest income then the millions TD claims he earns as a JD.

I made a general statement in reply to one Romney had made regarding taxes paid and that was how this discussion went down this rabbit hole. I was then challenged by several on my profession and income. shrugs ... I invited them to the loft with vague to verify. It seems Turtledude makes lofty claims yet keeps deflecting about effective v. marginal taxes when that was not even the discussion. He is has been told 4 times it was not an effective tax rate yet I guess my willingness to be transparent and invite him to do the same inspired his need to bury the posts.



Turtledude ... I have told you 4 times I was not referencing an effective rate and I was willing to verify the details and my professional licensure with vague.

Are you up for the challenge on your JD and multi millions you claim to earn or are you burying the post of mine I quoted above by deflecting the discussion.

The FICA bit is what we figured-and that is not the federal income tax. so we were right-you were wrong

 

[cpwill]

I am using all my deductions and had an outlier year related to a research project i concluded. It is not a consulting job ... it is my own PLLC.

I paid 33% of total income to the feds and was including FICA ...my income and profession was called out as a liar

Because (apparently) you did, in fact, not tell the truth. You may not have intended to. But you said federal income tax. Not "federal tax plus fica plus gas plus etc. etc. etc..."

Turtledude ... I have told you 4 times I was not referencing an effective rate and I was willing to verify the details and my professional licensure with vague.

...so you are admitting that you do not, in fact, pay a higher tax rate than Romney?

 

[cpwill]

Epic fail! ; )

Strange cpwill when I offered to allow vauge to verify what you called out as a lie (degree and income) you spout gibberish like this! ; )

Even funnier ... turtleDUDE jumps in claiming to be a JD making multimillions joins in calling me a liar. I transparently offer to let vague verify my professional license and to verify TD claim of being a JD with any dishonesty by either of us being a 50 $ donation to DP and TD runs down a rabbit hole of twisting my original statement that I said an effective rate.

Oh btw .. TD ... the verification only takes a moment online and I trust vague with that information. It simply takes a first and last name for a JD or a healthcare professional?

Let me know if you change your mind?

Dion, I have posted my numbers multiple times on these forums in order to demonstrate that low-income Americans not only pay lower rates than Romney, but see Tax Day as Pay Day. I will repeat:

Family of 4, filing jointly:
Social Security Wages and tips: $29,723
Federal Income Tax Withheld: $922
Social Security Tax Withheld: $1,248
Medicare Tax Withheld: $431
TOTAL FEDERAL TAXES WITHHELD: $2,602
Federal Tax Refund Check: $6,370
NET FEDERAL TAXES PAID: -$4,232
NET FEDERAL TAX RATE: -14.5%


This ought to be pretty easy for you to match. I look forward to you doing so.

 

[Turin]

tax[/i].



...so you are admitting that you do not, in fact, pay a higher tax rate than Romney?

I pay a much higher percentage of taxes than Romney. I will send my numbers to you privately ... (cannot right now and will you be willing to make a 50 donation if I rove the science degree as well? I think that is a fair bet?

In addition ... mine is not quite as simple. You will understand why when you receive the numbers. What is the penalty for proof of a science degree in which you and TD called out liar?

How about TD ... ? ; )

 

[iguanaman]

You don't understand do you?

Find patient #1 or the first domino.... You're talking about issues as that resulted in an economic a collapse.

Instead of pointing fingers maybe you should investigate and do some research and find that first domino or patient #1.

It's you that has no clue. Follow the money....who made it and who lost it?