Oh my and it only gets worse...

[Mach]

The thing is, in the situation described in the OP, no one was harmed. This thread is similar to someone posting a story about a woman calling her husband a dumb-ass in public and then posting a poll about whether wife on husband violence is ever justified.

That's an absurd comparison for so many reasons.
First, we're talking about a paid professional while carrying out their job duties.
We're also talking about a representative of law enforcement, a relatively powerful position when questioning a random civilian.

This is not some personal domestic squabble.

 

[Fletch]

Yeah, he isn't really risking his life every day to help secure your rights.



That's overstating both the risks, and the officer's intentions. BTDT trust me.

Fine. I didn't realize being respectful had become so old fashioned. My bad.

 

[Fletch]

Because I am not discussing the particular incident here. I am discussing the discouraging reality that the watch commander suggested and expected me to be more agreeable to the possibility of acceptable police aggression/brutality depending on the alleged crime instead of the behavior of the suspect.

Lets see your video.

 

[clownboy]

Because I am not discussing the particular incident here. I am discussing the discouraging reality that the watch commander suggested and expected me to be more agreeable to the possibility of acceptable police aggression/brutality depending on the alleged crime instead of the behavior of the suspect.

You, by your description in the other thread were 50 ft away. You have determined the officer was being "overly aggressive". I presume not physically because that you could have quantified. So you thought the tone of his questioning was aggressive. The subject could very easily been evasive AND been calm and passive (your characterization). Especially where it comes to child molesters. They evade police questioning, and that may indeed have been the case here.

There's another element that you may not count as valid but most parents I think do. We used to have a huge problem with a particular child molester who was attending the local children's sports matches and filming them, taking pics at gymnastics tournaments and posting them on a site for "child lovers". Basically underage upskirt and revealing sort of stuff. What he was doing was technically legal. Finally he received so much negative police attention from our local police he moved his operation up to Washington.

By being what you call verbally aggressive with this suspect the message is conveyed that we take child molestation charges and the behaviors leading up to them very seriously, very personally.

 

[Ikari]

You, by your description in the other thread were 50 ft away. You have determined the officer was being "overly aggressive". I presume not physically because that you could have quantified. So you thought the tone of his questioning was aggressive. The subject could very easily been evasive AND been calm and passive (your characterization). Especially where it comes to child molesters. They evade police questioning, and that may indeed have been the case here.

There's another element that you may not count as valid but most parents I think do. We used to have a huge problem with a particular child molester who was attending the local children's sports matches and filming them, taking pics at gymnastics tournaments and posting them on a site for "child lovers". Basically underage upskirt and revealing sort of stuff. What he was doing was technically legal. Finally he received so much negative police attention from our local police he moved his operation up to Washington.

By being what you call verbally aggressive with this suspect the message is conveyed that we take child molestation charges and the behaviors leading up to them very seriously, very personally.

What do you mean "seriously'? You just offshored the problem, you didn't fix it.

 

[Summerwind]

Lets see your video.

No, there's no reason. They did nothing wrong, and it'd be wrong to publish in context with this OP anyway. Perhaps the other one, but not this one.

 

[Summerwind]

You, by your description in the other thread were 50 ft away. You have determined the officer was being "overly aggressive". I presume not physically because that you could have quantified. So you thought the tone of his questioning was aggressive. The subject could very easily been evasive AND been calm and passive (your characterization). Especially where it comes to child molesters. They evade police questioning, and that may indeed have been the case here.

There's another element that you may not count as valid but most parents I think do. We used to have a huge problem with a particular child molester who was attending the local children's sports matches and filming them, taking pics at gymnastics tournaments and posting them on a site for "child lovers". Basically underage upskirt and revealing sort of stuff. What he was doing was technically legal. Finally he received so much negative police attention from our local police he moved his operation up to Washington.

By being what you call verbally aggressive with this suspect the message is conveyed that we take child molestation charges and the behaviors leading up to them very seriously, very personally.

This is the wrong thread, I'll be happy to answer you in the correct one. Please repost there.

 

[Goshin]

Fine. I didn't realize being respectful had become so old fashioned. My bad.

Nope. You can be whatever you think is respectful.


But you don't have to be either.


And as I said, cops are not risking their lives everyday for your rights. Most of their concern about your rights is not violating them enough to get in trouble.

 

[Lovebug]

No, in this thread I'm trying to determine if most people feel as the watch commander expected me to feel, as though aggression/brutality might be justified simply because of the alleged crime and not the behavior of the suspect.

I answered "conflicted', simply because it depends. What are the prior circumstances leading up to the behavior while with the police? Does the detainee have a history with the police, is it known that his behavior can suddenly change? Did the cops ask him for the last 364 days not to tinkle in front of the liquor store and today is day 365, and they ask him a little more sternly?

Personally, I am for showing respect, police and lay person alike, But I am not around people who break the law on daily basis, so that might be a bit naive. Of course I'd approach a guy who smoked a joint differently than a serial killer.

 

[Summerwind]

I answered "conflicted', simply because it depends. What are the prior circumstances leading up to the behavior while with the police? Does the detainee have a history with the police, is it known that his behavior can suddenly change? Did the cops ask him for the last 364 days not to tinkle in front of the liquor store and today is day 365, and they ask him a little more sternly?

Personally, I am for showing respect, police and lay person alike, But I am not around people who break the law on daily basis, so that might be a bit naive. Of course I'd approach a guy who smoked a joint differently than a serial killer.

But we're not talking about criminals here, criminals are either caught in the act by police or have been convicted already after the police. We're talking about suspects to alleged crimes. I do appreciate your answer. It makes sense even if I don't altogether agree.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

IMO the reasons that we see police as being more aggressive is due to three factors:

- it may be that they've always been rather aggressive, but now we have video via cell phones...and we have mass media that's finally paying a little attention.

- when the police are on duty, they know that there are literally hundreds of millions of guns are out there in America, and knowing that they are truly laying their lives on the line forces them to address each situation as potentially presenting a deadly threat to themselves. This changes their psychology on a personal level, and so changes the attitude on an organizational level.

- the fact that their actions are being more publicly scrutinized - and often criticized, even pilloried by the press - forces the police to become more defensive of their actions, and they "close ranks" as a result.

The only real solutions that I can see are:

- sensible gun control, especially that which doesn't allow bad guys to legally buy guns just because gun nuts don't want to have their precious phallic symbols regulated.

- ending the drug war. It's stupid...and tragic on a grand scale.

- immigration reform.

- and forcing the police across the nation from the top down to wear body cams, use dash cams, and accept the idea that yes, they SERVE the public and they must always act with professionalism, in ways that when filmed and broadcast would never call their actions into question. Personally, the military did this a long time ago - one's conduct must be above reproach 24/7, or one's career might be over.

If anyone could turn this into a rant for gun control I knew who it would be!

Most cops I know have no problem with firearms. Besides carrying a gun is not license to be treated poorly.

I have a carry license which will pop up whenever the cops run my tags, I've been pulled over and also had to deal The state patrol after a car wreck I was involved in, guns never came up as a topic. I should note I was carrying my gun at each of these times

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Was he being aggressive? Perhaps. Were you being a disrespectful punk by walking away from an officer who called you over? Absolutely.

She was told she wasn't being detained, this isn't nazi Germany the police have to have a reason to make you stay. Assuming the OPs side of the story is true, she did nothng wrong, she went back to work, that wasn't a crime last I checked

 

[Hard Truth]

Many cops consider it their duty to enforce class divisions. That is why some consider it their duty to give poor people in the wrong neighborhood a hard time.

 

[clownboy]

What do you mean "seriously'? You just offshored the problem, you didn't fix it.

Where in the post you just quoted does the word "seriously" appear?

And no, it's not a fixable problem, not without breaking something else. Since we can't just skin the bastard and leave his carcass hanging outside the city limits to discourage future predators, our police did the very best they could to protect their community. They made it obvious he was going to get an abundance of unwanted attention as long as he stayed here.

 

[Summerwind]

Where in the post you just quoted does the word "seriously" appear?

And no, it's not a fixable problem, not without breaking something else. Since we can't just skin the bastard and leave his carcass hanging outside the city limits to discourage future predators, our police did the very best they could to protect their community. They made it obvious he was going to get an abundance of unwanted attention as long as he stayed here.

You said he wasn't doing anything illegal so what is it that you think he should be skinned for? I'm so confused why someone NOT breaking the law needs to be skinned or run out of town or hassled in anyway.

 

[blackjack50]

In this other thread, I describe an incident I had this morning with the police. Though this is related, it brings a whole new question to the forefront. Here's the original situation http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-and-order/222752-absolutely-ufb-new-post.html

I decided to call the related police department and let them know how this cop behaved, I was transferred to the watch commander. She listened and then said, "well would it matter to you what he was being questioned over?"
I said, "no, it doesn't matter, if he's not giving the police trouble then they shouldn't be overly aggressive."
She said, "so it doesn't matter to you if there was concern he was a child molester."
I repeated, "no, it doesn't matter, what matters is how he is behaving with the police who stopped him, and he was quite passive through out."
She tried again, "what if it was your kid we thought he molested."
And a third time, I repeated myself. "Absolutely doesn't matter. What matters is how he behaves with the police, if he's not giving issue, they can handcuff him without issues.

So here's the new question it brings to the fore...
How did we get to the point that the watch commander of a decent sized city somehow thinks it's okay to be unnecessarily aggressive depending on the suspected crime, even before there's any evidence a that person being questioned was involved. In the case I recorded, they let him go, so I guess he didn't have anything to do with whatever they stopped him for.
And do you think it's okay for police to be aggressive with a passive suspect, depending on the crime alleged?
Also if it were a friend or family member who was the victim, would that effect your answer?

Read the other one first. Yep. Called it.

Yes. It is ok for a cop to be irate and upset when questioning a potential CHILD MOLESTER.

Should you have been treated poorly? No.

But to ask a cop to ignore his humanity is to to be inhumane. I was in a cop car for one night and the officer I rode with for brain matter on his shoes. Literally. Not figuratively. If you ask a cop to be completely inhuman...you will get it. And that is far scarier than a guy upset at a child molester (alleged).

 

[Summerwind]

Read the other one first. Yep. Called it.

Yes. It is ok for a cop to be irate and upset when questioning a potential CHILD MOLESTER.

Should you have been treated poorly? No.

But to ask a cop to ignore his humanity is to to be inhumane. I was in a cop car for one night and the officer I rode with for brain matter on his shoes. Literally. Not figuratively. If you ask a cop to be completely inhuman...you will get it. And that is far scarier than a guy upset at a child molester (alleged).

So you are okay with the behavior of the police to reflect the alleged crime rather than reflecting the behavior of the suspect while being interrogated. Thank you for finally answering. Did you vote in the poll?

 

[blackjack50]

So you are okay with the behavior of the police to reflect the alleged crime rather than reflecting the behavior of the suspect while being interrogated. Thank you for finally answering. Did you vote in the poll?

On my phone. I can't vote.

But. Am I ok with? Meh. Can I understand it? Absolutely. I don't want my cops to be devoid of emotion. That is scary. I want them feel the consequences for an action. That is far better than letting a cult mentality that you would see in the USSR and Nazi Germany. They may consider the results of action then.

It is a double edged sword. Sure. I won't argue that. Alrighty. Gotta do jujitsu

 

[Fletch]

She was told she wasn't being detained, this isn't nazi Germany the police have to have a reason to make you stay. Assuming the OPs side of the story is true, she did nothng wrong, she went back to work, that wasn't a crime last I checked

Thank you Captain Obvious. I said she was being disrespectful not that she had committed a crime against the Fuhrer.

 

[Ikari]

Where in the post you just quoted does the word "seriously" appear?

And no, it's not a fixable problem, not without breaking something else. Since we can't just skin the bastard and leave his carcass hanging outside the city limits to discourage future predators, our police did the very best they could to protect their community. They made it obvious he was going to get an abundance of unwanted attention as long as he stayed here.

.By being what you call verbally aggressive with this suspect the message is conveyed that we take child molestation charges and the behaviors leading up to them very seriously, very personally.

How serious can you take something when all you're really doing is sweeping it under the rug?

 

[Bodi]

If we are going to let police meet out punishment then let's just get rid of judges, juries, prosecutors, and defense attorneys altogether.

Done. What do you want me to do next?

 

[Bodi]

Was he being aggressive? Perhaps. Were you being a disrespectful punk by walking away from an officer who called you over? Absolutely.

Why is walking away from a cop who calls you over disrespectful?

 

[Bodi]

cops are not risking their lives everyday for your rights. Most of their concern about your rights is not violating them enough to get in trouble.

Awesome point!

 

[Bodi]

Actually, citizens staging events to test the police is a public safety concern. What happens if, while one of these staged events is happening, another group is out snatching 5 year olds off the street? While the cops are busy dealing with some bull**** for your amusement they aren't taking care of actual stuff that needs taking care of.

How is that any different then having twenty five cops stand around for 30 minutes after a car chase or twenty cops standing around at immigration ID check points?

 

[Bodi]

I don't know. If a policeman calls me over, I come over. They are there to protect me, the least I can do is give them respect.

They are not there to protect you... cops are almost always after the fact. You are robbed, mugged, attacked, etc. and THEN the cops show up.

I generally will talk to a cop but if they are calling me over for no reason then I might not, especially if I was just videoing them...