Offensive PC attack at a U.S. Air Force Base.

[apdst]

Who enforced the fatally-flawed Versailles treaty that disallowed Germany from having an army, that forced Germany to pay onerous reparations to the allies?

Claiming that we won the Vietnam war is a lot like saying that the Soviet Union won its invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's. At no time did they lose a battle...but they wound up pulling their forces out, leaving a doomed puppet government behind. The people of the Soviet Union had lost the will to fight that war. Sound familiar?

We lost the Vietnam war, not because we were not able to win it militarily, but because we as a nation had lost the will to fight. Think back to France just before the blitzkrieg - at the time, they quite literally had the most powerful land forces in Europe, and their tanks were in ways superior to Germany's...but France as a nation, having been bled white during WWI, had lost the will to fight.

Oh, so WW2 never happened? Hitler didn!t secretly train an army in The Soviet Union?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Oh, so WW2 never happened? Hitler didn!t secretly train an army in The Soviet Union?

Of course he did - but how does this in any way refute what I've been saying?

 

[apdst]

Not the Nazi's.

Last time I checked teh Communist Part of Vietman ran things after the Vietnam war.

Not for two years after US troops were withdrawn.

 

[apdst]

Of course he did - but how does this in any way refute what I've been saying?

The Germans signed an armistice agreement. The Viet-coms signed an armistice agreement. Both violated the terms. By your logic, the allies lost WW1.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The Germans signed an armistice agreement. The Viet-coms signed an armistice agreement. Both violated the terms. By your logic, the allies lost WW1.

You are arguing against a group that I have found has little interest in logic, consistency or reality. It is not "Violating an armistice", it is "Reuniting the nation under the rightful government of Communism" in their mindset.

Isn't it funny how almost every thread in here that starts with military complaints against politicizing the military soon turns into countless incorrect and bogus attacks against the military itself?

Then people wonder why I hate political civilians.

I was starting to post this in response to something somebody said in here, but instead I decided to post it in the general forum instead. And I am wondering how many other military-veterans agree with me..

**********

This should not come as a surprise to many, but parts of this should be explained once again.
I largely have a pretty negative view of Civilians, and largely deal with them with contempt.
Now understand, this is largely aimed at those civilians that deal with people like me with contempt. Military, especially career military.
I see over and over some civilian (Right or Left Wing) pop in and give some really stupid comment, and all I can do is scratch my head and wonder at the stupidity that makes people actually think that way.

I said that 6 months ago, and I still feel that way to this day. And thread hijackings like this only confirm that belief.

 

[apdst]

You are arguing against a group that I have found has little interest in logic, consistency or reality. It is not "Violating an armistice", it is "Reuniting the nation under the rightful government of Communism" in their mindset.

Isn't it funny how almost every thread in here that starts with military complaints against politicizing the military soon turns into countless incorrect and bogus attacks against the military itself?

Then people wonder why I hate political civilians.



I said that 6 months ago, and I still feel that way to this day. And thread hijackings like this only confirm that belief.

I understand their mindset, but we can't sit back and let the revisionists go unchallenged.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I understand their mindset, but we can't sit back and let the revisionists go unchallenged.

I am aware, and have the same problem. But it still disgusts me that they can't even be honest and truthful when attacking us.

Like a certain troll a few months ago who tried to prove I was a liar, since we had pulled out of Iraq years ago, and I could not possibly be near "Baghdad By The Bay".

I am not sure what it is, but all to often nowadays when I see "Progressive" and "Libertarian", I start to feel like I need to pull out a sanity meter (this is not true for all "Liberals" or "Conservatives", but it does happen far more then I like with those 2 groups as well).

Of course, I think the real issue is that many of them know there is no possible excuse for the incident at LAAFB, so they deflect by attacking. I wonder how many would be applauding and saying it was good if I brought in some Klukkers to give a speech, along with the Hillsboro Baptist Church and Nation of Islam to explain why we need to be tolerant of their beliefs as well.

After all, is not tolerance supposed to be tolerance of everybody? Maybe if some of our military actually talked to these vermin, they might not hate them so much and actually start to agree with their beliefs. Then we can have huge numbers of the Armed Forces walking hand in hand with the Hillsboro nutcases, waving signs that say "God Hates Fags" to show their support for their right of free speech.

 

[Cameron]

I am afraid people have the right to be outraged by this. I don't consider people should hold celebrations or parades for sexuality. People should hold celebrations and parades for meaningful things. We should hold them for teachers, for firemen, for cops, for the army, for scientific progress, for remembering the past, things that matter. Not for sexuality or race or any other inherent thing.

Having the right to be free from pervasive social and political discrimination based on an inherent characteristic is certainly meaningful and worth celebrating. Maybe it shouldn't be, because the discrimination was ridiculous and should never been practiced in the first place, but welcome to life. Take your displeasure out on the people who made the "inherent things" issues to begin with, not those who are celebrating being themselves. It's one day per year, and I highly doubt the drag queens were hurting anybody, or that the event was mandatory. Jesus.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Having the right to be free from pervasive social and political discrimination based on an inherent characteristic is certainly meaningful and worth celebrating. Maybe it shouldn't be, because the discrimination was ridiculous and should never been practiced in the first place, but welcome to life. Take your displeasure out on the people who made the "inherent things" issues to begin with, not those who are celebrating being themselves. It's one day per year, and I highly doubt the drag queens were hurting anybody, or that the event was mandatory. Jesus.

And would you be so understanding of allowing the KKK and Neo-NAZIS and a modern Know Nothing party to speak out and have their own days as well?

 

[Cameron]

And would you be so understanding of allowing the KKK and Neo-NAZIS and a modern Know Nothing party to speak out and have their own days as well?

Are you implying that the KKK and the Nazis, who together lynched and/or exterminated millions of people, are similar to men celebrating their freedom to wear a wig and a dress and dance around on stage? Are you really saying that it is impossible to distinguish between those two groups of people, such that if I were to say no, the military should not be sponsoring KKK and Nazi day, that would make me a giant hypocrite?

The military fights for the freedom of all Americans, including the freedom from irrational persecution, which is what this day aimed to celebrate. The Nazis and the KKK, by contrast, practiced irrational persecution, and would have no business operating on a U.S. Military base.

In conclusion, of course it would be inappropriate for the U.S. Military to sponsor a KKK or Nazi day. What's your point?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

The Germans signed an armistice agreement. The Viet-coms signed an armistice agreement. Both violated the terms. By your logic, the allies lost WW1.

The German monarchy that signed the armistice agreement was not the same German National Socialist tyranny that violated the agreement. The nation had changed radically over the intervening twenty years.

Your comparison really, truly makes no historical sense - it's very much like saying that Russia under the Czars was no different from the Soviet Union.

 

[apdst]

The German monarchy that signed the armistice agreement was not the same German National Socialist tyranny that violated the agreement. The nation had changed radically over the intervening twenty years.

Your comparison really, truly makes no historical sense - it's very much like saying that Russia under the Czars was no different from the Soviet Union.

If you were rihht, Hitler wouldn't hsve had to build his army in secret.

 

[apdst]

Are you implying that the KKK and the Nazis, who together lynched and/or exterminated millions of people, are similar to men celebrating their freedom to wear a wig and a dress and dance around on stage? Are you really saying that it is impossible to distinguish between those two groups of people, such that if I were to say no, the military should not be sponsoring KKK and Nazi day, that would make me a giant hypocrite?

The military fights for the freedom of all Americans, including the freedom from irrational persecution, which is what this day aimed to celebrate. The Nazis and the KKK, by contrast, practiced irrational persecution, and would have no business operating on a U.S. Military base.

In conclusion, of course it would be inappropriate for the U.S. Military to sponsor a KKK or Nazi day. What's your point?

The Ku Klux Klowns didn't didn't exterminate millions of people.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Are you implying that the KKK and the Nazis, who together lynched and/or exterminated millions of people, are similar to men celebrating their freedom to wear a wig and a dress and dance around on stage? Are you really saying that it is impossible to distinguish between those two groups of people, such that if I were to say no, the military should not be sponsoring KKK and Nazi day, that would make me a giant hypocrite?

The military fights for the freedom of all Americans, including the freedom from irrational persecution, which is what this day aimed to celebrate. The Nazis and the KKK, by contrast, practiced irrational persecution, and would have no business operating on a U.S. Military base.

In conclusion, of course it would be inappropriate for the U.S. Military to sponsor a KKK or Nazi day. What's your point?

Wow, where to go from here. However, you did say it, you are a giant hypocrite.

No, the military does not "fight(s) for the freedom of all Americans, including the freedom from irrational persecution". You see, this is an entirely internal matter, and there is this fact in law known as the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits them from acting in such a manner unless within very narrow and specific guidelines. So you can pontificate all you want, it means nothing.

And you are a hypocrite because you do not want to give equal time, you want to forward a narrow political agenda that you favor while quashing all you oppose. Because I am sure that I could show valid reasons for the creation and support of both Klukkers and Nutzies. And yes, I despise both of those, and any other similar groups. However, I feel that they no more have a right to be given an open forum to the members of the military then these nutcase groups that you are trying to give free access to.

That is the difference my hypocritical friend. The military is there to break things and kill people in other countries, not to impose some kind of order upon the American people inside America. And the only times it has, it was done within very narrow and specific guidelines.

 

[Cameron]

Wow, where to go from here. However, you did say it, you are a giant hypocrite.

No, the military does not "fight(s) for the freedom of all Americans, including the freedom from irrational persecution". You see, this is an entirely internal matter, and there is this fact in law known as the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits them from acting in such a manner unless within very narrow and specific guidelines. So you can pontificate all you want, it means nothing.

And you are a hypocrite because you do not want to give equal time, you want to forward a narrow political agenda that you favor while quashing all you oppose. Because I am sure that I could show valid reasons for the creation and support of both Klukkers and Nutzies. And yes, I despise both of those, and any other similar groups. However, I feel that they no more have a right to be given an open forum to the members of the military then these nutcase groups that you are trying to give free access to.

That is the difference my hypocritical friend. The military is there to break things and kill people in other countries, not to impose some kind of order upon the American people inside America. And the only times it has, it was done within very narrow and specific guidelines.

So I suppose you oppose all enrichment activities, speaking engagements, etc. incorporating or led by non-base persons? Do you also oppose family day?

 

[Oozlefinch]

So I suppose you oppose all enrichment activities, speaking engagements, etc. incorporating or led by non-base persons? Do you also oppose family day?

"Enrichment activities"? WTF is that?

And actually, quite often I do. Our military nowadays wastes entirely to much time in "Politically Correct Horse****". Quarterly (and sometimes monthly) classes on everything from human trafficking and sexual assault to gender recognition, racial identity and ethnic sciences. It is mostly nonsense, and our troops are all sick to death of it.

And yes, I oppose "Family Day" when it is freaking mandated. I get back from a 3 week field exercise, then I am told I have a 4 day pass, but good heavens I can't go anywhere because right smack in the middle is a "Command Appearance" "Family Day" event that I have to attend. And eat crappy hamburgers and hotdogs from the chow hall and warm sodas. Instead of actually going with my family and actually doing something with them.

Yea, I am in the Army. And there is little that boils my blood (or my wife's blood) then some kind of "You will attend, you will have fun" type of command to go to some function. One time the FRG Rep even tried to call her and order her to attend, and my wife told her to go to hell, she was not in the Army, and they had no right to tell her what she would and would not do.

I am a highly punctual individual, to the point when I do not show up they assume something is wrong because I am never late. Normally I appear 45 minutes early to handle business with my soldiers well before a formation, and have been told by the Sergeant Major to go home. But at these nonsense time wasters, I show up 5 minutes prior, and leave as soon as possible. I am not against them, I just hate that they all have to be "command performance" type events.

At least in the old days we could have some beer as the "families had fun". Damn, today you can't even bring your dog to one of them (and yes, I tried, they kicked me out because dogs are not allowed in the park on base).

 

[APACHERAT]

Like a certain troll a few months ago who tried to prove I was a liar, since we had pulled out of Iraq years ago, and I could not possibly be near "Baghdad By The Bay".

.

There's this one troll on the DP who called me a liar and didn't even try to prove it.

 

[APACHERAT]

Are you implying that the KKK and the Nazis, who together lynched and/or exterminated millions of people, are similar to men celebrating their freedom to wear a wig and a dress and dance around on stage?

The Sturmabteilung aka SA aka Nazi Brownshirts, ranks were full of homosexuals and drag queens.

Socialist always used homosexuals to gain political power and as soon as they gain totalitarian power, they eliminate them.

Something the LGBT community should think about.

 

[Cameron]

Well, I would agree that mandatory activities of these sort are inappropriate. The only thing that should be mandatory is, you know, training. I haven't heard that this diversity day was mandatory, however.

I would consider enrichment activities to be concerts, classes, etc. held on base. Any organized, non-combat related event that is designed to make service more enjoyable/bearable/what-have-you. The military may be all about killing people in other countries (or however you described it - I suspect your superiors would disagree with you), but that doesn't mean it needs to be all death and destruction all the time (God, I hope not).

Church services would also qualify as an enrichment activity. I understand that many military bases have on base services.

Equal access is not absolute. The government does not need to accommodate messages that could involve the government in illegal activity, for example. I doubt the drag queens were even giving political speeches. It's the equivalent of bringing in a country act to perform on base. It's a cultural experience. I don't have a problem with it, an think the notion that if you permit a diversity day you also have to permit a Nazi or KKK day is flatly ridiculous.

 

[Cameron]

The Sturmabteilung aka SA aka Nazi Brownshirts, ranks were full of homosexuals and drag queens.

Socialist always used homosexuals to gain political power and as soon as they gain totalitarian power, they eliminate them.

Something the LGBT community should think about.

Thanks for the advice...

 

[Glen Contrarian]

The Sturmabteilung aka SA aka Nazi Brownshirts, ranks were full of homosexuals and drag queens.

Socialist always used homosexuals to gain political power and as soon as they gain totalitarian power, they eliminate them.

Something the LGBT community should think about.

1. I'd really like to see your reference(s) for that, and
2. The Nazis were anything BUT socialist. Just because 'socialist' was part of the name means nothing, just as "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" doesn't mean that North Korea is either a democracy or a republic. FYI, most first-world nations of today are closer to real, actual socialism than the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ever was. It's time to stop thinking of the word 'socialist' as something akin to nazism or totalitarianism - it's not and never was...for if it were, then none of the non-OPEC first-world nations would be democracies today.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Well, I would agree that mandatory activities of these sort are inappropriate. The only thing that should be mandatory is, you know, training. I haven't heard that this diversity day was mandatory, however.

I would consider enrichment activities to be concerts, classes, etc. held on base. Any organized, non-combat related event that is designed to make service more enjoyable/bearable/what-have-you. The military may be all about killing people in other countries (or however you described it - I suspect your superiors would disagree with you), but that doesn't mean it needs to be all death and destruction all the time (God, I hope not).

Church services would also qualify as an enrichment activity. I understand that many military bases have on base services.

Equal access is not absolute. The government does not need to accommodate messages that could involve the government in illegal activity, for example. I doubt the drag queens were even giving political speeches. It's the equivalent of bringing in a country act to perform on base. It's a cultural experience. I don't have a problem with it, an think the notion that if you permit a diversity day you also have to permit a Nazi or KKK day is flatly ridiculous.

Have you been living in a cave, or never been in the military? There have been classes like this for decades, and over the last 10 years it has gotten increasingly worse.

Literally, my last command tried to get all of the "Quarterly required classes" knocked out at one time, and it took over a week to do. That is more then 4 weeks a year of nothing but going to PT in the morning, then attending classes all day form 8am until 5pm. It is absolute insanity sometimes.

And you seem to have missed the point, we do not visit "death and destruction" on Americans in America, unlike what you tried to imply, we can't work inside the US.

But you do continue with your double standard. As much as it was the Drag Queens "right to free speech" to talk to these Airmen, it is equally fair to say it is the right of the Klukkers or Nation of Islam to do the same thing. My point is that no Special Interest Groups should be doing such things, not ever.

And yea, bases normally have concerts fairly often. I remember back in the day seeing the Force MDs give a free concert, and I have also seen Kid Rock and Gary Sinise and the Lieutenant Dan Band. However, such activities are not "Command Mandated", and attendance is not required.

But your desire to "transform and improve" the military into a form you want it ti take is noted. But let me say it again, the military is not your playground to force nonsensical agendas upon. All you generally do is piss us off, waste our time, and make us even more disgusted with such "special interest groups".

And myself, I do not think it is ridiculous to allow "equal time" of special interest groups. If you are going to push one kind of political mindset upon the military, why would nobody else have the right to push a different mindset? Unless your entire idea is political indoctrination in the first place?

 

[Cameron]

I don't consider drag queens to be a special interest group. What special interest? Cher over Lady Gaga? It is not indoctrination to wear a wig, unless they are forcing you to wear a wig. A drag queen is not trying to convince you to become gay any more than a country singer is trying to convince you to buy a tractor.

Also, my issue is not about the Drag Queen's "freedom of speech," it's about whether the military can present a non-mandatory performance by a drag queen if it so chooses. That's an important distinction.

 

[Oozlefinch]

2. The Nazis were anything BUT socialist.

This is why I find so frustrating about trying to debate with the politically ignorant.

Yes, the NAZI Party was indeed a Socialist party. So were the Italian Fascists, the Chinese Nationalists, and even the much older German National-Social Association (1896). These were all Socialist groups who believed in Nationalism instead of Internationalism, and generally rejected Marx as well.

Nobody stepped down form the Heavens, touched Marx on the forehead and said "You and your movement are the only True Socialists, everybody else is a fraud!" There are many different forms of Socialism, just as there are Republicanism and Democratic beliefs.

If you doubt that, I invite you to read the "Party Plank" of the NAZI Party. Remove the bullcrap racist angle, and over 80% of the points would have fit in swimmingly with things Lennon and Stalin and Marx had said.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I don't consider drag queens to be a special interest group. What special interest? Cher over Lady Gaga? It is not indoctrination to wear a wig, unless they are forcing you to wear a wig. A drag queen is not trying to convince you to become gay any more than a country singer is trying to convince you to buy a tractor.

IT HAS NO FREAKING PLACE ON A MILITARY BASE, BEING PRESENTED TO THE MEMBERS OF OUR MILITARY!

There, can I say it any ****ing clearer? It no more has a right to be there then a bunch of NASCAR junkies giving classes on NASCAR to the military, or even a group of ministers all being presented to give their own opinion of who and what God is.

It is inappropriate, unnessicary, and should not be inflicted upon the members of the military against their will.

Look, if you think this has a place, then it should be done in the civilian community, off-post, and on the weekend so they can attend or not if they so choose. To make it part of some kind of ****ing "Gay Diversity" event is ****ing bull****. And by your own words, then by having some Anti-gay group speak would not turn them to homophiles either, so why not allow them as well, hmmm?

In fact, everything you just said pretty much states it is pointless because it does not change anything. So why do such a stupid stunt in the first place? Political Correctness and Political Indoctrination, nothing else. Oh, and shutting out any group you personally oppose, and allowing in only groups that you support.